quote:

Originally posted by Loganthor:
Notice I have yet to find any actual scientific sudey on the after effects of waterboarding. Odd for something that been around that long/

Maybe this will shed some light:

http://www.wcl.american.edu/hrbrief/14/2correa.pdf?rd=1

Note that finding a specific study on the effects of waterboarding is rather problematic. Unlike studying something like PTSD, there are invariably Security issues. Those that waterboard do NOT want people not in their chain-of-command talking to subjects that have been waterboarded.

[I am reminded of a scene from "Princess Bride": Count Rugen talking to Wesley in the Pit of Despair -- "Presently I'm writing the definitive work on the subject, so I want you to be totally honest with me on how the machine makes you feel....What did this do to you? Tell me. And remember, this is for posterity so be honest. How do you feel?"]

quote:

Out of ALL wars:
Unconditional surrender-
Battle of Trench year:627
Indo-Pakistani war 1971
Battle of Fort Donelson 1862
Germany - WWII
Italy - WWII
Japan - WWII

Not a real long list... So how does that fit with your world view? Would you like me to list all the miltary victory to offset your world view that Victory can not be achieved without an Unconditional Surrender.

Where did you get that list? And, you are, once again, 'gagging at gnats' but 'swallowing (ie. ignoring) camels'. If we don't have 'unconditional surrender' of all these 'terrorists', yet you seem to agree with Bush's little proposition that 'if we don't fight them over there we'll have to fight them over here', then, absent 'unconditional surrender', how are you going to assure that without having to perpetually 'fight the terrorists'? Can you answer that question directly, Loganthor?

Perhaps the reason Log doesn't join the military, is because you have to pass a basic spelling test...

Kerry,

I think what you are really striving for is that the loser simply **stops fighting**. _Most_ wars that end with a declared victory fit that criteria -- there there has been a marked tendency since the mid-20th century for some people on the losing side to fight until they die.

The problem in the Middle East (to my eye) is the madrassas. They serve a multitude of social functions, including charity and education. Unfortunately, far too many of them spend a lot of energy pushing for worldwide jihad against all "heretics and infidels" -- which is to say, "anyone who does not believe as we do." Considering the amount of dissent that they sow, I am surprised most of the nearly-dictatorial Arab governments don't crack down on them.

Remember in the Middle Ages how the Church frequently kept kingdoms in line by threatening to excommunicate entire countries? I think that's what the Arab leaders would face if they suppressed the _actual_ root of turmoil in the region. As long as the bile of the madrassas is spewed at foreigners, they'll tolerate the actual breeding ground for terrorists.

memory hole, I watched your video link. and I listened to Ms. Wolf on Thom's show today. She is educated and well spoken. To answer your question: why torture works? It works because you don't have to torture everyone to get the desired results... just as the schoolyard bully doesn't have to beat up everyone, he only needs an example or two.

I don't doubt anything that Naomi Wolf had to say. The only question I have is how does a well armed populace fit into the blueprint? I would think that before a total slip away from democracy could occur, the citizenry would have to be disarmed?

quote:

Originally posted by meljomur:
Perhaps the reason Log doesn't join the military, is because you have to pass a basic spelling test...

Do you know just how **easy** it is to pass the spelling portion of the basic GED? Recruiters are getting so desperate, they'll look at _anyone_, just so long as they're breathing.

quote:

Originally posted by Quondam:
I would think that before a total slip away from democracy could occur, the citizenry would have to be disarmed?

Disarmed is preferable, but being clearly outgunned will most likely suffice. If they can be intimidated enough to NOT use those guns, it's the next best thing to their not having guns at all.

*******

Hmm. Just had a stray thought. If the dictatotial government manifested itself, there _would_ be a Resistance that would appear.

Where would the Resistance get its weapons and ammo from? Domestic sources would be cracked down on, Big Time. So that means smuggling across the border.

If we've turned our borders into Iron Curtains to keep out illegal immigrants, smuggling weapons and ammo would be next to impossible.

Hmm. Dots seem to be connecting. hmm.

quote:

Where did you get that list?

LOL... I ran "unconditional Surrender" not real hard, even a third grader could do it. Unconditional surrender

quote:

Can you answer that question directly

I do not know how god damn I have to answer the question.

when the violence subsides enough that it becomes a police matter and not a military matter. THAT is when you will know it is over.

Do you honestly think that the US military is going to continue to occupy a country when the interval between terrorist attacks is 1 week, 1 month, 1 year? Iraq is still Daily attacks.

quote:

Originally posted by CaptainPatch:
Did they already serve their time in a branch of the military? Do they have relatives currently serving in the military? Hey, I'd even be willing to equate time in the Peace Corps as almost equivalent commitment to helping America's "body and soul". But when others that have pointedly never risked life and limb for their country start to loudly propose that _other_ Americans should go in harm's way to support **their** agenda, I tend to think that their opinion isn't founded on total sincere belief.

So there is a pre-qualifyer to having an opinion. I get it.

Is there also a pre-qualifyer on taxing rich people even though you haven't made millions?
I think the "what gives you the right?" questioning could apply to alot of different examples.


You miss one critical factor Cap'n.
The people that are in harms way are doing so VOLUNTARILY.

Actually, Loganthor and CaptainPatch, I'm stressing the issue of 'unconditional surrender' as the only surefired means to 'victory in war' for a specific purpose--to show how stupid espousing 'war' as any 'solution' to any problem in the world today. 9/11 could have--and, as far as I'm concerned, should have--been handled as a crime (just like the initial bombings of the World Trade Center towers in 1993)--not an incitement to 'war'. And, as far as I can see it, this 'incitement to war', especially with the added excuse that we are 'fighting them over there so we won't have to fight them over here', needs to be taken to its 'war-motivated conclusion'. If it takes 'fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them over here', how are we to stop if 'they' still exist--especially without having to 'unconditionally surrender'? As I've said, ultimately, my assertion is to show how stupid that statement of 'fighting over there so we won't have to fight over here' is because it has no 'conclusive element' if we don't have 'unconditional surrender'. It's a 'perpetual excuse' for a 'perpetual war' started on the premise of a situation that could have been handled as a crime--and 'policing case'--to begin with...but, it wasn't. And, those who have made it what it is speak in the platitudes that only 'war' can 'resolve'--but, like WWII, they CANNOT be 'resolved' unless there's 'unconditional surrender'.

Loganthor waxes on in tangential, surreptitious, fashion about the 'good results' of this war--but, what is a 'good result' in a 'war' that has no end? Why is this 'war' being set-up as if 'freedom were at stake', as if 'American ideals were at stake'--but, the 'enemy' that we say is causing this isn't made to 'unconditionally surrender'? As I've said, it's a hypocrite's game (professed by those who have not one hair of their ass on the line in the platitudes that would imply we are 'in it to win against the enemy' to 'victory'--but played out in a way where 'victory' has a hollow ring to it.....

quote:

Originally posted by Slabmaster:
So there is a pre-qualifyer to having an opinion. I get it.

Is there also a pre-qualifyer on taxing rich people even though you haven't made millions?
I think the "what gives you the right?" questioning could apply to alot of different examples.


You miss one critical factor Cap'n.
The people that are in harms way are doing so VOLUNTARILY.

Did you ever read "Starship Troopers"? I actually think that Heinlein was onto something there: In order to qualify as a Citizen, complete with voting rights, residents would be required to do a term of civil service. Military service was not specifically required, but it was the easiest (relatively speaking) most straightforward path. Doing a couple years of what we consider "community service" today would also qualify you. The basic foundation was, in order to have a Voice in the House, you had to help to build and maintain it. That seems fair to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Kerry:
Actually, Loganthor and CaptainPatch, I'm stressing the issue of 'unconditional surrender' as the only surefired means to 'victory in war'

I hear you. I agree: 9/11 should have been treated as a crime. Chase down the specific responsible parties like the government going after an underworld criminal organization. Invading Afghanistan was little more than an act of revenge on the landlord that knowingly leases a residence to a known criminal. AND to send a message to any nation thinking of doing something similar.

But as to Unconditional Surrender: even today, such a termination of a war is unlikely to stop the fighting 100%. Diehards with resources abound. Most fade away after a generation. I think that the Palestinians were some of the first multi-generational diehards refusing to let go of old grievances. By having made it something of an East versus West religious issue, Iraq is just as likely to hold the same status in 50 years as Israel versus the PLO holds today. That is, there will still be people throwing bombs and conducting assassinations.

It's HARD to eliminate the population of suicide bombers when they spring from a faith that assures its followers that martyrs for the faith automatically go to Paradise.

quote:

think that the Palestinians were some of the first multi-generational diehards refusing to let go of old grievances

Current Ongoing conflicts:
1948 Internal conflict in Myanmar Myanmar (Burma) unknown but high
1964 Colombian Armed Conflict Colombia ~300,000
1967 Post-Six-Day War Israeli-Palestinian conflict (including al-Aqsa Intifada) Israel and Palestine 5,396
1969 Communist insurgency in the Philippines Philippines unknown
1969 Islamic Insurgency in the Philippines (including OEF-P) Bangsamoro unknown
1975 Conflict in Laos involving the Hmong Laos 2,000 - 3,000
1980 Internal conflict in Peru Peru ~70,000
1983 Sri Lankan civil war Sri Lanka ~68,000
1984 Kurdish Separatist Insurgency Turkey ~37,000
1984 Free Papua Movement Western New Guinea unknown
1987 Second Ugandan Civil War Uganda ~12,000
1988 Somali Civil War (including 2006 War in Somalia) Somalia unknown
1989 Kashmir conflict Kashmir unknown
1990 Casamance Conflict Senegal unknown
1992 Conflict in the Niger Delta (including Nigerian Oil Crisis) Nigeria unknown
1993 Ethnic conflict in Nagaland Nagaland, India unknown
1999 Second Chechen War Russia 28,000 - 113,000
2001 War in Afghanistan Afghanistan 17,000 - 27,000
2003 Iraq War Iraq ~600,000
2003 Insurgency in Saudi Arabia Saudi Arabia 273
2003 Darfur conflict Sudan 200,000 - 400,000
2004 Balochistan conflict Balochistan, Pakistan unknown
2004 Waziristan War Waziristan, Pakistan 2,600 - 7,100
2004 South Thailand insurgency Pattani, Thailand ~2,500
2004 Naxalite (Maoist) insurgency in India Certain parts of India unknown
2005 War in Chad Chad ~1,400
2006 Mexican Drug War Mexico ~2700
2006 Fatah-Hamas conflict Gaza Strip, Palestine 265
2007 Second Tuareg Rebellion North Niger, Mali 56
2007 2007 Ogaden conflict Ogaden, Ethiopia 614

quote:

Originally posted by CaptainPatch:
[ Did you ever read "Starship Troopers"? I actually think that Heinlein was onto something there: In order to qualify as a Citizen, complete with voting rights, residents would be required to do a term of civil service. Military service was not specifically required, but it was the easiest (relatively speaking) most straightforward path. Doing a couple years of what we consider "community service" today would also qualify you. The basic foundation was, in order to have a Voice in the House, you had to help to build and maintain it. That seems fair to me.

Saw the movie.

I'm actually in favor of that concept as it adds needed discipline to hungry young minds and raging hormones lacking experience in....anything.

quote:

Originally posted by Loganthor:

quote:

think that the Palestinians were some of the first multi-generational diehards refusing to let go of old grievances

Current Ongoing conflicts:
1948 Internal conflict in Myanmar Myanmar (Burma) unknown but high
1964 Colombian Armed Conflict Colombia ~300,000
1967 Post-Six-Day War Israeli-Palestinian conflict (including al-Aqsa Intifada) Israel and Palestine 5,396
1969 Communist insurgency in the Philippines Philippines unknown
1969 Islamic Insurgency in the Philippines (including OEF-P) Bangsamoro unknown
1975 Conflict in Laos involving the Hmong Laos 2,000 - 3,000
1980 Internal conflict in Peru Peru ~70,000
1983 Sri Lankan civil war Sri Lanka ~68,000
1984 Kurdish Separatist Insurgency Turkey ~37,000
1984 Free Papua Movement Western New Guinea unknown
1987 Second Ugandan Civil War Uganda ~12,000
1988 Somali Civil War (including 2006 War in Somalia) Somalia unknown
1989 Kashmir conflict Kashmir unknown
1990 Casamance Conflict Senegal unknown
1992 Conflict in the Niger Delta (including Nigerian Oil Crisis) Nigeria unknown
1993 Ethnic conflict in Nagaland Nagaland, India unknown
1999 Second Chechen War Russia 28,000 - 113,000
2001 War in Afghanistan Afghanistan 17,000 - 27,000
2003 Iraq War Iraq ~600,000
2003 Insurgency in Saudi Arabia Saudi Arabia 273
2003 Darfur conflict Sudan 200,000 - 400,000
2004 Balochistan conflict Balochistan, Pakistan unknown
2004 Waziristan War Waziristan, Pakistan 2,600 - 7,100
2004 South Thailand insurgency Pattani, Thailand ~2,500
2004 Naxalite (Maoist) insurgency in India Certain parts of India unknown
2005 War in Chad Chad ~1,400
2006 Mexican Drug War Mexico ~2700
2006 Fatah-Hamas conflict Gaza Strip, Palestine 265
2007 Second Tuareg Rebellion North Niger, Mali 56
2007 2007 Ogaden conflict Ogaden, Ethiopia 614

So, the Palestinians, having lost the first Arab-Israeli War in '48-'49, were, in fact, some of the first multi-generational diehards. (Nice to know that I get something right once in awhile. )

Sadly, it looks like they started a trend.

quote:

Originally posted by Slabmaster:
Saw the movie.

I'm actually in favor of that concept as it adds needed discipline to hungry young minds and raging hormones lacking experience in....anything.

I remember the shower scene. Like _that_ is going to help keep those raging hormones in check.

Before you get all exicted and wet yourself, Read the comment section

quote:

Waterboarding, if conducted properly, has the head and face lower than the chest, in a Trendelenburg position, normally a steep one, thus the probability of the lungs filling with water isn't going to happen. The gag reflex is indeed engaged, to repel water in the mouth and nose and just past the epiglottis. The same effect as having a large wet hand held over one's mouth and nose. If one panics, then one passes out rather soon. If one does not panic, and slows the body functions, it is similar to breathing through a wet rag while fighting a house or forest fire. But drown? Not a chance.

This will be a first, I cant wait till Mel see it.

Here is another Video of Waterboarding

quote:

Invading Afghanistan was little more than an act of revenge on the landlord that knowingly leases a residence to a known criminal. AND to send a message to any nation thinking of doing something similar.--CaptainPatch

But, isn't there good evidence to say that Osama Bin Laden is (and probably for years 'has been') in Pakistan? So, using the 'get the nation that harbors them' fashion, why aren't we 'at war' with Pakistan? (See how ridiculous this can become?).

No, I really think we're being duped as a nation for the benefit of multinational corporations using 'American ideals' for their benefit--and the evidence I am using is the very issue I've been mentioning--ie. a 'war' started without even considering 'unconditional surrender' even though all the hoopla over 'American freedom' and 'American ideals' is being used as the 'set-up' for this 'war'. What did the Loose Change video state? Wasn't Osama Bin Laden in a hospital in Dubai at the time of 9/11--and we knew it? If that is so, doesn't really sound like 'we' really want to get Osama, anyway? Which would make sense if 'permanent war' (requiring a 'permanent enemy') is what 'we' are really after.....

quote:

But as to Unconditional Surrender: even today, such a termination of a war is unlikely to stop the fighting 100%.

Not the point at all. If we are going to 'formalize the assault' as 'war', we should do the same with the 'resolution of war' with 'unconditional surrender'. And, as far as the 'historical context' of 'war' and 'unconditional surrender', it's been around a lot longer than Loganthor is trying to portray. I just saw in one of my wife's history books that a nickname for U.S. Grant in the Civil War was 'Unconditional Surrender' to be what the 'U.S.' stands for.....

quote:

It's HARD to eliminate the population of suicide bombers when they spring from a faith that assures its followers that martyrs for the faith automatically go to Paradise.

And 'Self' is eliminated 'for the cause'.....

Now, where does 'God' fit into all of this?

Just a thought....

Kerry,

I did manage to have some fun on your "unconditional Surrender" Mantra.
SS Werewolf Guerrilla Resistance in Europe, 1944-47

quote:

The exact numbers are hard to come by. I have read as high as 700. I don't know for sure. It took 7 years to eliminate all Nazi sympathizers.

quote:

The final guerilla resistance was not stamped out until 1948. They sniped, they planted bombs, and one of their favorite tricks was to stretch a rope across a road at the right height so that people riding in an open jeep would catch it in the neck. This could result in a broken neck or outright decapitation. The occupying forces executed guerillas when they caught them, the British used beheadings, and even resorted to taking and executing hostages.

Ah the good old days.

quote:

it's been around a lot longer than Loganthor is trying to portray.

ME???? try blaming it on History.

everyone is always discussing the apathy of the American public, and I agree that it is a real phenomenon-the cause of it may not be known, but I have a hypothesis-about 6 years ago my 13 year old daughter was diagnosed with osteosarcoma(bone cancer)-as a result of the research I did to help her, water fluoridation is very strongly implicated in this disease-however, it also became obvious that fluoride had other effects beside causing cancer-apparently it was used by the Nazis to keep those trapped in the holocaust camps docile-fluoride is also the main ingredient in many of the drugs used to traet mental illness-the Europeans declared water fluoridation illegal about 10 years ago because of its myriad negative impacts on human health-I noticed after my family worked very hard to avoid fluoride, that my mind became very clear-it was like waking up from a light fog-as 60% of the water is now fluoridated in the USA and it is in virtually every food product ingested, if you don't eat organic, it can be assumed that the public is in a real sense, rather sedated-if you google the effects of fluoride you will learn how insidious this practice really is.

Why Torture Works: The Blueprint for Dictatorship in US + fluoridation =