by the way DUKE, which returning troll are you? you sure sound alot like poppping turtle. i would say your GG, but she would have changed the suject to scripture already. hmmm, PT or someone else. dont worry, ill get to the bottom of this soon enough. after all, its troll hunting season.

eley - see the thread "fear and the authoritative mind".

lol
Well now you are down to calling me troll as your only response. Just as I thought all along. Unless you prove yourself to me, I will set you to ignore. Considering there are almost 11,000 people here, I could be anyone of them or myself. As a matter of fact maybe you are a troll? Since there are a lot of libs here then it is more likely you are another troll in disguise.

As far as your sources, I don't put too much stock in:
"i also talk to recreactional fishermen"
and
"i have friends in the shrimping industry"

But I did correct the mistake, and you are right you said asshole.

quote:

FF-
by the way DUKE, which returning troll are you?

It does sort of beg the question which return troll are YOU. You joined one week after the the House cleaning. Your Vast fishing sources consist of:

quote:

i have friends in the shrimping industry

quote:

also talk to recreactional fishermen

quote:

its a well known fact

quote:

that is a fact and not my opinion

quote:

do your own research.

Love that... really shows the willingness to discuss.

So which troll are you? have an unhealthy fetish for GG. Miles maybe? Doubt it. Mojo, Blue Raven, Blueinmo, Memory Hole, Littlebigman (he is more articulate then you), BLah blah blah.

quote:

its troll hunting season.

YOU ARE NOT THE MIGHTY TROLL HUNTER.... Miles is that you??

Get off whatever hobby horse your on.

You too Duke, I hate Rule posters. report or dont, the rest is flame warring.

well logan , apparently you havent posted anything worth wild on the topic. as for me being a troll, i only joined at that time because thats when i found out about this site. if i had known about this place earlier, i would have signed up at that time.

i have supplied links. if you or duke dont wish to take the time to look at them , then that it not my problem.

as for some of my non-online sources:
*i have friends in the shrimping industry
*also talk to recreactional fishermen

they are credible sources, as my friends in the shrimping industry is actually out in the gulf for a month at a time. they know how the state of the marine life is by what they catch in their troll nets. the recreational fishermen i know and talk to regularly go out in the gulf to target species like red grouper, mackeral, and other deep water species. they also report to me on the condition of the ongoing red tide situation.

"its a well known fact"
"that is a fact and not my opinion"

well i should have expected simple well known facts here in florida to be over your head logan. perhaps if you relocated to the gulf coast region or did some research, you would know what i was saying is indeed fact.

"YOU ARE NOT THE MIGHTY TROLL HUNTER.... Miles is that you??"

and you are?

im not gonna spoon feed everybit of information to everyone. marine statistics is too vast for that. all i did was give simple information that people can use to do reference on their own.

fisherman - In your many travels and wide circle of friends, have any of them spoken about male fish becoming feminized and the same cause is polluting the rivers.? I'm not joking.

quote:

apparently you havent posted anything worth wild on the topic

Sorry, never was much for seafood, I more a land animal eater.
How's this -

quote:

70% of the world's major fisheries are overfished or on the brink of being overfished (Source: World Wildlife Fund)

That took google .06 seconds. and a statement I would whole heartly agree with.

I wasn't actually posting to this topic, and then again it also appears neither were you.

quote:

as for me being a troll, i only joined at that time because thats when i found out about this site. if i had known about this place earlier, i would have signed up at that time.

I'll take your word for that. I doubt you are the only one that signed up recently. remember that.

quote:

i have supplied links. if you or duke dont wish to take the time to look at them , then that it not my problem.

I am not Duke and am Not responding to your links. I am responding to your overt hostility and Duke's love afair with the rule book.

quote:

and you are?

I am me, Myself and I and we do not always get along.

quote:

im not gonna spoon feed everybit of information to everyone. marine statistics is too vast for that. all i did was give simple information that people can use to do reference on their own.

Golly Gee... Maybe you should spend some time on a marine biology blog instead of a mostly political one. Most everyone here is capabile of reading and process information. I am sure Marine statistics are vastly similar to every other form of statistics.

quote:

ell i should have expected simple well known facts here in florida to be over your head logan.

Shall I assume you are an expert on pacific northwest fishing? iF so, Concrats.

quote:

fisherman - In your many travels and wide circle of friends, have any of them spoken about male fish becoming feminized and the same cause is polluting the rivers.? I'm not joking

actually alot if not most species of fish change sex when they reach a certain age or size. however, this doesnt cause pollution in rivers.

the size that these fish undergo sex changes actually reflect on alot of the size regulations for commerical and recreational fisherman. for example, the common snook, a tropical game species of fish that only recreational fisherman can catch, change sex from male to female at appoxamately 27-28 inches. the slot limit for this fish is 27-34. this mean any fish from 27-34 can be kept. this keeps the males in circulation, letting the small females get harvested, and allowing the large breeding snook to be released. this has helped keep the fishery at a decent level. hope this helped

fisherman - tomorrow I'll post specifics on the problems of male fish becoming feminized, its coverup, and danger of pollution.

quote:

I wasn't actually posting to this topic, and then again it also appears neither were you

yes my statements to you and duke were off topic, but if you bothered to read my first few posts on this thread, you will see thats not the case.

"I am me, Myself and I and we do not always get along."

good enough for me

"Golly Gee... Maybe you should spend some time on a marine biology blog instead of a mostly political one. Most everyone here is capabile of reading and process information. I am sure Marine statistics are vastly similar to every other form of statistics"

ok then , i invite you to post all the ocean statistics in circulation. the oceans cover 75% of the earths surface and we havent even researched or explored the vast majority of it. that means alot more statistics than there would be for land.

"Shall I assume you are an expert on pacific northwest fishing? iF so, Concrats"

no im not. i never claimed to be. i am pretty good at gulf of mexico fisheries and marine life, as that is what i am studying. you also happened to mock me about my particular area of study. that sure doesnt look to me like "a willingness to discuss" , as you said in your own words.

quote:

I'll post specifics on the problems of male fish becoming feminized, its coverup, and danger of pollution

gg, how is that a problem? its a natural occuring act that occurs in most marine life. its coverup? whos trying to cover it up? its a common fact amoung anyone studying marine biology that most marine life switch sex after a certain period. as for pollution, most if not all pollution in the ocean is man made. some natural pollution is caused by certain types of algea or marine life feces, but 99% of it is from man made causes like water runoff, fertilizer, sewage, illegal dumping, and habitat change.

quote:

yes my statements to you and duke were off topic, but if you bothered to read my first few posts on this thread, you will see thats not the case.

To clarify, I dont believe I was referring to any of those nor did they matter in my subject. Of course Seafood is going to collapse someday, with an ever increasing population, they have to be feed some how. It is nice to see that greedy capitalist are attempting to resucue the world with Fish farming.

quote:

no im not. i never claimed to be

Good, Because I dont recall claiming knowledge of Florida Fishing. I guess everyone can contribute. Maybe Duke knows the fish practices in Dukeville, wherever the hell that is.

quote:

you also happened to mock me about my particular area of study.

As I told GG recently. I mock just about everything, Dont take it personally, I am an equal opportunist Mocker.

I am just asking for you, Duke and others to lighten up.

quote:

I am me, Myself and I and we do not always get along.

Logan,
Dont you just hate when that happens? Drives me crazy, when it does

h

quote:

As I told GG recently. I mock just about everything, Dont take it personally, I am an equal opportunist Mocker.

I am just asking for you, Duke and others to lighten up

ill try to do that.

"To clarify, I dont believe I was referring to any of those nor did they matter in my subject. Of course Seafood is going to collapse someday, with an ever increasing population, they have to be feed some how. It is nice to see that greedy capitalist are attempting to resucue the world with Fish farming"

farm fishing has its upsides and down sides.


"Maybe Duke knows the fish practices in Dukeville, wherever the hell that is."

sure wish i knew where that was, perhaps we can solve his fish problems then.

quote:

I am responding to your overt hostility and Duke's love afair with the rule book.

Within a couple posts this member DUKE started in with Fisherman, before there was even any interaction between them. He zeroed in on him and started confronting him in a very nasty manner not the other way around. He has since made it his almost vocation to provoke Fisherman,with nasty threatening comments. Fisherman's hostility is understandable,as he is simply trying to discuss this topic he has an interest in which shouldn't be so unbelievably controversial and had this topic derailed first by GG then by Duke and now by you. It isn't necessary to dog everything he says with aggressive interogation everytime he posts something, as this Duke has. IMO I agree he is familiar with this site and came for some agenda that isn't to simply discuss things but to stir something up in a nasty way

(hi, deni. Thanks for sharing some of the imagery with me, over in that "other" thread. )

ftmeyers,

I just read your first two posts in this thread. I really appreciate the way you explain things, clearly and simply, with intelligence and certain respect for the circle of life.

It's refreshing to read.

Thanks. I'm reposting part of something you said on page one.

quote:

in many areas of the world, our marine life IS seriously overfished. most of these issues boil down to 2 things:

1)government mismanagement of the fisheries

2)the need for seafood as a food staple for many people, esp in asia.

the 2nd point not much can be done as in many impoverished areas, they depend on fish for food and their livelihood. fish and other marine life, if managed correctly, is a very good renewable resourse that can sustain a very large population of people and supply them with most of their daily nutrition requirements. but once again, this leads back to the first point- government mismanagement.

most governments DO place restrictions of what can and cannot be caught in their own national waters. however, once in international waters, these regulations are GREATLY relaxed and can lead to overharvest of species, as well as greater amounts of bycatch (which is all killed). in the united states, state waters here in florida extend out 7 nautical miles from shore and federal waters extend 120 miles i believe (but i have to check on that fact).

once outside federal waters, ANYONE can fish those areas. that means korean, mexican, canadian, british, and japanese fishing vessels can all fish outside that magical 120 mile mark. the problem is, that mark doesnt change, but fish migrate and they do move into new areas.

what does that mean? lets take a local fish here in florida, the gag grouper or grey grouper. this fish, when juvenile, mostly lives in water shallower than 30 ft. in most places here in florida (esp on gulf side), 30 ft of water extends way past state and halfway into federal water. that means for the most part, the small fish are protected from overharvest. however, once these fish get to spawming or mature size, they most often move further offshore, to depths of 30-200 ft. this is often located OUTSIDE federal juristiction. this means that the mature fish are subhect to overharvest and this in turn means less fish able to reproduce and create the next generation of fish.

on a similar note, commercial fishermen nowadays are mostly comprised of about 100 large corporations or fleets. these 100 fleets have the authority to catch a large portion of the fish, while recreational fisherman like myself are slowly being regulated by larger size limits (meaning have to be larger to keep), smaller bag limits (able to keep less), and more closed seasons. all this is occirring while the commercial catch is not only increasing, but is being allowed to increase bu federal and state mismanagement. i can see only one solution to this:

ban or severely regulate commercial fisheries. this has been proven to be a VERY effective way to restore fisheries here in florida that were decimated by overfishing by the commercial industry. a few good examples are our redfish population, our mullet population, and our seatrout populations. all 3 were decimated almost to the point of extinction here in florida due to commercial net fisheries. once florida residents have voted on a net ban about 8 years ago, the populations have rebounded like never before. areas that were once devoid of fish are now full of life.

now this is not to say that people who fish for food , sport , or recreation are not at fault for some of the problems of our declining fisheries. things like kill tournaments should be outlawed, unless the fish will be eaten. recreational fisherman also leave behind discarded fishing lines and hooks which can also cause problems for marine life. but these pale in comparison to the autrocities committed by the commercial fishery fleet. i will get more into this at a later time, but this is a lot of information for now.

quote:

ill try to do that.

OK, me too. So something related to the subject matter...
Have you read anything that tried to deal with tragedy of the commons? I brought it up earlier and don't believe you responded with anything. While what the WWF says may be an exaggeration also, we should take the health of the oceans as one of the most important issues of the day. In some ways I think it is more important than global warming.

quote:

"farm fishing has its upsides and down sides."

Yes and most can be identified as resulting from:
Externalities.

quote:

sure wish i knew where that was, perhaps we can solve his fish problems then.

We here at Dukeville, have no problems with our fish and have plenty for all to have as much as they want. This is with-in the framework of well defined property rights and a government that supports these rights including a legislative branch that handles when externalities have spill over effect on other's properties.

And naturally we all eat organic granola bars.
So tell us about Florida.

I look forward to seeing you and GG talk about this male/female stuff. I just can't help but think that this may lead to some homophobic debate.

But let me make it perfectly clear that I am not hesitant to call people out on violations of the rules. I expect respect and I value my space. So I will kindly tell people what my limits that are acceptable to me are, and if they violate that then I will not hesitate to call them on it. No matter who they are including that L'thor fellow. After having a bad experience at DU then I want a civil conversation.

ftmeyers,

I just read your first two posts in this thread. I really appreciate the way you explain things, clearly and simply, with intelligence and certain respect for the circle of life"

ty for the kind words kate. i did try to make it easy to understand. i am actually more comfortable using scientific terms when refering to marine species but then noone would understand the point i was trying to make. i do appreciate your comments. ty

"OK, me too. So something related to the subject matter...
Have you read anything that tried to deal with tragedy of the commons? I brought it up earlier and don't believe you responded with anything. While what the WWF says may be an exaggeration also, we should take the health of the oceans as one of the most important issues of the day. In some ways I think it is more important than global warming."

duke i fully agree. it was the reason, besides my love of fishing , that made me get into the marine biology field in the first place. i truely believe that while our fish stocks arent as bad as in the article, it is definetly a serious concern that needs immediate action. most life on this plantet is actually in the oceans. a loss of anyone of the major players in the food chain can lead to dire consenquences for the rest.

global warming actually plays a part in the depletion of our marine life. as water warms, it changes the habitats of many species. some species are only tolerate of certain water tempature spreads. if water gets too hot for them, even a few degrees higher than usual, they have 2 choices: move to a new area or die out. while global warming might have a dire effect on cold water species, it would actually have an opposite effect on warm tropical species. with warmer water, their habitat would actually expand and could hypothetically increase their numbers.

global warming would also mean higher water levels. higher water levels usually mean flooded vegitarian around shorelines. this usually is a good thing, as it would mean more habitat for baitfish and juvenile fish.

"Yes and most can be identified as resulting from:
Externalities."

this is somewhat true. in the instance of my shrimper friends, they are actually having a hard time competing with asian farm raised shrimp. the farm raised shrimp can usually be raised and harvested cheaper than native shrimp caught here in the gulf. the problem is also the us government doesnt put enough tarriffs on the imported asian shrimp to make shrimping here profitable enough. as a result, a lot of florida shrimpers have gone the way of the dinosaur. the ones that are left and can make it, however, usually are part of a larger seafood corporation and profits from the corporations other harvests usually cancel out these losses.

" look forward to seeing you and GG talk about this male/female stuff. I just can't help but think that this may lead to some homophobic debate"

im curious as to what she plans on presenting also. just the part where she said the sex change pollutes the rivers has me scratching my head, as i have never heard of that. most pollution in any body of water is usually man made. also one point i didnt mention earlier is that a very few species of fish can actually change their sex at will in order to reproduce. nature is very interesting to say the least.



"After having a bad experience at DU then I want a civil conversation"

that is also all i want. so let me extend the olive branch once again (or in my case, the fishing pole )

quote:

that is also all i want. so let me extend the olive branch once again (or in my case, the fishing pole Smiler )

No, once is enough. But if I am ever there in FtMeyers I will take that fishing pole. lol

Since the oceans are basically a bathtub then nothing will prevent movement of any species, I can think of. But I am also thinking that the oceans may be our most important carbon sink. So the overall level of pollution should be a concern to all. We do know that given enough time nature will solve what ever problem we present, but we don't have that luxury to wait.

I am sorry about the your friends in the shrimp business, but IMO it would be better to lose that industry than to damage our overall health of our oceans. I have not studied it but that industry could try to promote their products as the 'organic' versions. This is much as Alaska is trying to do vs. farmed salmon. Where the meat actually is pink and not colored.

But when I was talking about externalities I was thinking more of the farmed fish being in an open system that pollutes into the waterways vs. a closed system. Some ideas of the privatization of some of the food stock could come from fishnets around the oil drilling platforms. And the dilution factor should be high in the open seas.

why do you necons keep interupting this thread

"Since the oceans are basically a bathtub then nothing will prevent movement of any species, I can think of"

in what ways? species migrate. this has been proved through tagged studies. maybe i just misintepreted the statement.

"So the overall level of pollution should be a concern to all. We do know that given enough time nature will solve what ever problem we present, but we don't have that luxury to wait."

this is true. the oceans are actually a great indictator of the amount of pollutants in the air and in the ground, as runoff from terra (land) goes into the watersheds, eventually leading to the oceans. any pesticides, fertalizers, and contaminants that are in the ground, get soaked into the water. this is why a lot of fish have high levels of mercury, phosphorus, and other toxins in them. the toxins enter the water, get absorbed by baitfish and other microbes, which in turn get eaten by game and predator fish, and finally they get eaten by humans. at each level, the amount of the toxins is many times higher than the food level below it. contaminants like soot, dust, smog, acid rain, and greenhouse gases also get absorbed into the oceans. this is why the oceans is really an indicator on how the planet as a whole is doing. true, nature does find ways to clean up after mans follys, but it cannot do it faster than we are destroying it.

"I am sorry about the your friends in the shrimp business, but IMO it would be better to lose that industry than to damage our overall health of our oceans. I have not studied it but that industry could try to promote their products as the 'organic' versions. "

i have to someehat disagree on that point. while commercial havesting is the main cause of damage to marine stocks, it is almost impossible to completely shut the industry down, nor would it be really wise. many areas can only recieve fish by way of commercial harvesting. although this is not a justification of the damage they do, people do need to eat and many areas, like desert,arid, or areas away from the coast, have no other way of recieving important protein and nutrients that can only be recieved from fish. for them, commercial harvesting and then shipping the fish to those areas is the only choice. we can, however, place restrictions on commercial harvesting, esp in international waters, where the majority of overharvesting is taking place. but this can only be accomplished through international negotiations, which i feel is not an easy task to accomplish.

as for florida native shrimp, the florida chamber of commerce has actually started running commercials and radio ads in the last couple of years in an effort to hype up american natural shrimp and not imported asian farm raised shrimp. they have also asked the florida legistlation to pass stricter tarrifs and taxes on all imported shrimp, to make it more expensive than florida shrimp. this will make florida shrimp a better buy to the consumer. but this can have drawbacks also. if more consumers want natural florida shrimp, that means more shrimp is needed and a greater strain will be placed on already depleted stocks here.

"Some ideas of the privatization of some of the food stock could come from fishnets around the oil drilling platforms. And the dilution factor should be high in the open seas"

that would be a good idea in terms of pollution. however, those farms would be subject to great damage from the many tropical systems that cross that area from june-nov. even oil rigs, which are built to withstand great forces of nature, are often destroyed or severly damaged from these storms. there have been attempts at scallop farms near the panhandle area of florida, some which have met with success. but these farms take alot of initial investment to start and even then , the farms take a couple years before they are ready for harvest. and the whole time they are at the whim of variables such as red tide, hurricanes, fresh water releases, pollution, water temperature, and even the amount of sunlight they get (cloudier stirred up water allows less sunlight though).

deniport

quote:

Fisherman's hostility is understandable,as he is simply trying to discuss this topic he has an interest in which shouldn't be so unbelievably controversial and had this topic derailed first by GG then by Duke and now by you.

Denise, take a look at the 'abortion' thread, the many directions it went, and the challenge to stay on topic.