"Among the various afflictions, only anger manifests itself in a very crude manner, destroying the practitioner in a most effective way. Therefore the ancients said:
When we allow an angry thought to arise, we open the door to millions of obstructions.
To combat and subdue anger and resentment, we must develop a compassionate mind. The Lotus Sutra teaches:
We should take the mind of great compassion as our house, forbearance as our armor, the Truth of Emptiness as our throne.
We should think: we ourselves and all other sentient beings are common mortals drowning in the sea of Birth and Death, all because of karma and afflictions. However, afflictions by their very nature are illusory and unreal. For example, where does an angry thought come from before it arises? Where does it return to when it dissipates? When we are angry and resentful, we are the first to suffer, because we have ignited the fire of afflictions, which will consume us. Anger, moreover, can neither convert nor bring a single benefit to anyone. Is it not then a useless case of delusion? We should think further: those who have harmed us by their wrongful actions have, through delusion, planted evil seeds; they will necessarily suffer retribution. They should therefore be the objects of pity, not anger. This is because, if they were clear-minded and understood the causes of merit and retribution, they would never dare do such things. We are offspring of the Buddhas and should apply their teachings to dissolve our own afflictions -- because the goal of cultivation is to seek liberation and happiness, not to descend upon the path of suffering. We should feel compassionate and forgiving of injurious actions and practice forbearance, understanding that everything is illusory and void. We should remember the words of the ancient masters:
The fire of the three poisons, greed, anger and delusion, Burns up all the forests of virtue; Those who would tread the Bodhisattva Path, Should be forbearing in mind and body.
Compassion is the pure and refreshing water that can extinguish the fire of afflictions; forbearance is the enduring armor that can block all poisoned arrows; the Dharma of the Void is the light that can completely destroy the somber smoke of delusion. Knowing these three things and relying on them to rid ourselves of anger and resentment is to have "entered the house of the Buddhas, worn the armor of the Buddhas and sat on the Buddhas' throne."
A chapter from the Lotus Sutra ric _/\_
"The moon that I love clears a path through the pines And guides a stream right to the bamboo gate."Poems by Zen Master Hsu Yun: Series I
Posts: 795 | Location: western slope, northern sierra | Registered: 18 April 2003
When we allow an angry thought to arise, we open the door to millions of obstructions.
To combat and subdue anger and resentment, we must develop a compassionate mind. The Lotus Sutra teaches:
We should take the mind of great compassion as our house, forbearance as our armor, the Truth of Emptiness as our throne.
**Or another possiblity may be:
"There is always the observer--the censor, the thinker the experiencer, the seeker--and the thing he is observing; the observer and the observed; the thinker and the thought. So there is always a division. It is this division that is time. That division is the very essence of conflict."
"Where there is division between the observer and the observed there is conflict but when the observer is the observed there is no control, no suppression. The self comes to an end. Duality comes to an end. Conflict comes to an end."
- J. Krishnamurti
"Thought works by conditioning. It has to get conditioned. You need conditioning to learn a language, to learn how to write, or to do all sorts of things. When the conditioning gets too rigid, though, it won't change when it should." - David Bohm
Posts: 1211 | Location: Southern California | Registered: 16 August 2002
Sounds wise, but what do "the Truth of Emptiness" and "the Dharma of the Void" mean?
quote:
The self comes to an end.
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Posts: 861 | Location: Over Here | Registered: 06 July 2002
In Buddhism three levels of prajna or wisdom are recognized.
Mundane wisdom which views what is impermanent to be permanant, what is impure to be pure and what has no self as having a self.This seems common for most beings throughtout every world dispite its erroneous nature. Many live thier entire life at this level of wisdom.
Metaphysical wisdom views what appears to be permanent as impermanent, pure as impure and what appears to have a self as having no self. This is the higher wisdom of those who cultivate meditation and philosophy.(early Buddhists sects,Sarvastivadins)held this view. This wisdom provides insight into a higher reality. It's rooted in dialectics and does not result in enlightenment although it may lead to an end of passion and no further rebirth.
The third level of prajnais transdendent wisdom, which views all things whether mundane or metaphysical, as neither permanent nor impermanent,pure nor impure, neither having a self nor not having a self, as inconceivable and inexpressible. Mundane and metaphysical wisdom result in attachment to views and knowledge, transdendent wisdom remains free of views because it's based on the insight that all things, both objects and dharmas, are empty of anything self existent. Nothing can be characterized as permanent, pure, or having a self. Also, nothing can be characterized as impermanent,impure or lacking a self. There is nothing we can point to and say "this is permanent or impermanent, this is pure or impure, this has a self or does not have a self"
It's 7:34 and I have a meeting with a client at 8:45. My truck and road are under 6" of snow this morning. Ill be back this afternoon to explain my understanding of Buddhist view of that self Sue and a Buddhist view of those good deeds you speak of GG. Hi Howard!
"The moon that I love clears a path through the pines And guides a stream right to the bamboo gate."Poems by Zen Master Hsu Yun: Series I
Posts: 795 | Location: western slope, northern sierra | Registered: 18 April 2003
Originally posted by Sue N: Why would I want my self to come to an end? It's all I am! I might as well be dead, by the sound of it.
**Hello Sue (& all) - The "self" referred to in the Krishnamurti quote is the thought-concocted self-image which leads humans to think they are separate from the so-called "other" imagined 'objects'. Like: "the environment". There's "me", the imagined entity in thought, in our imagination, and there's an image of "the environment", which we imagine in our head to be two "separate things".
The actual reality is that the self-image doesn't actually "come to an end". What comes to an end is the 'delusion' that this image is who one is. The image is seen for what it actually is, a mental concoction in the imagination.
Why would anyone who believes the self image is who they are want to end the self-image? It's highly unlikely that they would. What seems to occassionally drive humans to question the sanity of living an entire human existence according to such a concocted image is all the misery and unhappiness that it creates. The isolation and the feeling that thinking one is separate creates. This dualistic thinking is also what enables humans to kill one another over ideologies associated with this self-image and to destroy the environment which sustains them, which they aren't in actuality separate from.
Unless things like 'endless killing and war', or the possible extinction of the human species along with the other species our behavior is killing off is of concern, then perhaps getting at the root of this 'self' issue may continue to be of little interest to most humans.
If I may respectfully suggest: The self-image is not 'all one is' any more than any other thought/image can be "all". The self-image is of the same nature as the image of an apple in one's imagination. We can't eat that image in our head and derive nutrition from it like we can from an 'actual apple'. The 'image' of the apple, is not "all the apple is", any more than the self-image is "all I am." The self-image is a concoction of thought. And when this image is confused for something 'concrete', it then leads to all sorts of incoherent ideas & actions. The sort of ideas and actions which are currently destroying the eco-system and threatening human existence. Aside from that, it's no big deal.
Regards - Howard
This message has been edited. Last edited by: HowardW,
"Thought works by conditioning. It has to get conditioned. You need conditioning to learn a language, to learn how to write, or to do all sorts of things. When the conditioning gets too rigid, though, it won't change when it should." - David Bohm
Posts: 1211 | Location: Southern California | Registered: 16 August 2002
For starters, it already has and will continue to do so moment by moment as acts of consciousness, and materially in a constant exchange of matter and energy as the body.
But to answer the question, putting an 'end' to self puts an end to suffering.
The identification with a fixed or permanent self aligned with a body and mind that can never be permanently satisfied extends the primary dissatisfaction all life faces, (desire for what one wants, aversion for what one dislikes, pain, and the end of pleasure) beyond the experience of the moment into the future, such that the experience of dissatisfaction or pain blankets the future with thought and feelings, suffocating the full experience of other moments with suffering.
In doing this, there are two challenges, to coexist with dissatisfaction and pain just as they are in the moment, and to avoid extending pleasure beyond the moment to avoid future dissatisfaction. (It appears to me here that 'self' is rigidly aligned with dissatisfaction, perhaps its sole function being to deal with dissatisfaction, a creation of dissatisfaction.)
quote:
It's all I am!
What is self beyond a perception of "I am" or "I am this"? Everything that you may claim to be, a body, memories, or thoughts, are constantly mutating, so there is no actual place for this 'self' to rest. (The principle of impersonality is directly implied by the principle of impermanence.)
Now, if you were to insist on calling the triad just mentioned your 'self', there being no reason to include or exclude this or that component, why limit the 'self' to being just those things, ephemeral as they are? Why not include your family, other people, animals, all of life, or even all of the material and energetic universe as self?
Conceiving a singular self, indeed experiencing this singularity, sets up a duality with the 'other' which creates a gap and a potential opposition to all that is not seen as 'self'.
The suggestion is that you are already much much more than the common limited view of self implies. Losing 'self' entails gaining what was denied by selfhood as well as those qualities that were accepted.
quote:
I might as well be dead, by the sound of it.
Quite the opposite. Not being attached and so confined to the limits of selfhood and its judgments one is free to experience the totality of each moment as it arises and in incredible detail.
And in this unfettered experience of the moment one is not only free but able to respond and act responsibly to whatever or whoever is present as one might towards one's 'self'.
To my current and limited understanding...... ric
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Posts: 861 | Location: Over Here | Registered: 06 July 2002
Losing 'self' entails gaining what was denied by selfhood as well as those qualities that were accepted.
ric, do you have a fear of caring for another(s) outside yourself?
The concept of "other centeredness", is that not a purposeful reason enough or intention for you?
Will you ever get over 'yourself' or come to the 'end of yourself' and make a difference to the world around you?
quote:
But to answer the question, putting an 'end' to self puts an end to suffering.
Your reasoning appears to support why suicide is taught in the government "public" schools as an acceptable alternative to difficulties and euthanasia is becoming "expected".
Thanks alot, Ric. Do you have any commonsense /reasoning to "self puts an end to suffering". Do you know the root and development of this dangerous kind of thinking?
quote:
It appears to me here that 'self' is rigidly aligned with dissatisfaction, perhaps its sole function being to deal with dissatisfaction, a creation of dissatisfaction.)
and the end result is??? How about maturity, growth, increasing in faith, in hope and in charitable donation? Why are you so self - centered?
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
"truth of emptiness" " of what is the body made? It is made of emptiness and rhythm.At the ultimate heart of the body, at the heart of the world, there is no solidity...there is only the dance" (The Silent Pulse,p34)hereGeorge Leonard
Sue, Howard and ric have provided an excellent discourse on the self you ask of. The self is the result of the five [i]Skandhas(aggragates)...form, sensation, perceptions, memory(mental formations),consciousness. Any given entity can only be defined in terms of other entities. In Mahayana Buddhism the greatest of all delusions is the belief that something exists.
In the Heart Sutra, Avalokiteshvara looks into the five skandhas and sees that they are shunya"hollow","void","zero" "empty". Empty of what? Empty of the existence of a self. This is the second greatest delusion....the belief that nothing exists.
"Emptiness does not mean nothingness. It simply means the absence of the erroneous distinctions that divide one entity from another, one being from another being, one thought from another thought. Emptiness is not nothing, it's everything, everything at once. This is what Avalokiteshvara sees."The Heart Sutra,p69(translation and commentary by Red Pine)
Form is empty of anything that could be called self- existent. Whatever one uses to define form is dependent upon something else. So, the essential nature of form is emptiness. OK, so as I've mentioned before in one of the other threads,the five skandhas are empty of anything permanent, pure, or inherent, they're empty individually and as a group. They are so empty some would declare they do not exist. But they do exist as delusions and we can not say they do not exist because they are completly empty. In Mahayana Buddhism Emptiness means indivisibility.
"Everything is empty, and empty is everything. Avalokiteshvara denies all views regarding the skandhas that would regard any of them as real by telling us that "form is emptiness." But he also denies all views that would regard any of them as annihilated by telling us that "emptiness is form." Neither do the skandhas exist, nor do they not exist. What we are left with is a koan: "form is emptiness and emptiness is form."Red Pine
I don't dare go any further for fear of stating something inaccurate regarding Dharma or Buddhism.
Sue, emptiness is an experience like the apple described by Howard. Buddhism is a path of knowledge, practiceand personal experience as opposed to blind faith and blind belief.If you are inclined towards Buddhism spend some time here at e-sangha.It's a world community that provides access to extraordinary teachers and wisdom.
ric_/\_
"The moon that I love clears a path through the pines And guides a stream right to the bamboo gate."Poems by Zen Master Hsu Yun: Series I
Posts: 795 | Location: western slope, northern sierra | Registered: 18 April 2003
GG, "All dharmas are empty but one who relies on sentience or discrimination to view such things will become hopelessly entangled by the mind and its objects. Whereas someone who relies on the true wisdom of prajna will see that the mind and its objects are empty and instead of obstructions they will only meet with freedom. And because thier minds are free from walls, there is nothing to fear from birth and death. And because there is nothing to fear from birth and death, there is also no buddahood to seek. It is because of the fear of birth and death that we seek nirvana. But this is nothing but a dream or delusion."Te-ch'ing
GG, I promise you this here and now. When we are reborn, I promise to feed you, brush you, walk you every day and take you to the park once a week so you may chase the squirrels.
Would you like a cup of tea? bamboo ric _/\_
"The moon that I love clears a path through the pines And guides a stream right to the bamboo gate."Poems by Zen Master Hsu Yun: Series I
Posts: 795 | Location: western slope, northern sierra | Registered: 18 April 2003
ric: The identification with a fixed or permanent self aligned with a body and mind that can never be permanently satisfied extends the primary dissatisfaction all life faces, (desire for what one wants, aversion for what one dislikes, pain, and the end of pleasure) beyond the experience of the moment into the future, such that the experience of dissatisfaction or pain blankets the future with thought and feelings, suffocating the full experience of other moments with suffering.
In doing this, there are two challenges, to coexist with dissatisfaction and pain just as they are in the moment, and to avoid extending pleasure beyond the moment to avoid future dissatisfaction. (It appears to me here that 'self' is rigidly aligned with dissatisfaction, perhaps its sole function being to deal with dissatisfaction, a creation of dissatisfaction.)
A long while back, in a thread that has long been gone, Hilton (Connector) wrote on the theme, "I see only the past."
At the time he wrote, I didn't grasp what he was talking about, but I think it was in line with this discussion.
From it, from his recognition of how the past can rigidly confine the possibiilty in the present moment, Hilton developed a sense of the now, and of moving forward.
Perhaps his freedom was in this insight: "(It appears to me here that 'self' is rigidly aligned with dissatisfaction, perhaps its sole function being to deal with dissatisfaction, a creation of dissatisfaction.)"
--------------------------------------------------------------- "if you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got." ---------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 6804 | Location: usa | Registered: 09 February 2006
GG, I promise you this here and now. When we are reborn, I promise to feed you, brush you, walk you every day and take you to the park once a week so you may chase the squirrels.
I've said it before that some of my best friends are dogs, but I do not aspire to be one. If I have broken reciprocity of discussion, I am sorry. You've correctly exposed my inability to wrap my brain around personhood as 'nothingness and emptiness'.
I acknowledge Buddhism consists of goodness. Our wide gap is that I perceive
Each person to have a reason for existence that NO other can fulfill
Each person is an unrepeatable gift
Each person is to be treated as an ambassador
Each person has 'An Incredible Human Potential', not always understood by mere human understanding
"Man must reconcile himself to his natural greatness...he must not forget that he is a person", taken from "Love and Responsibility".
Human beings of all the living have the capacity to do the "Most Harm", therefore, we have the capacity to bring love where love does not exist.
I firmly believe that we need to at least desire to desire to, "become repairers of the breach"?
Got any Postum? Coffee? OK, tea is fine.
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
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I've said it before that some of my best friends are dogs, but I do not aspire to be one. If I have broken reciprocity of discussion, I am sorry. You've correctly exposed my inability to wrap my brain around personhood as 'nothingness and emptiness'.
