The Awful Truth About Michael Moore
By CHRIS JANCELEWICZ



Most of us are familiar with Michael Moore – he’s an influential flag-waver who stirs up left wingers, right wingers, and everyone in between. In his wildly successful "shock docs" ‘Bowling for Columbine’ and ‘Fahrenheit 9/11,’ he crusades for good causes like gun control and political accountability, all the while putting on a riveting show. But do we really know Michael Moore?

Canadian documentary filmmakers Debbie Melnyk and Rick Caine set out to give us an answer. They intended to produce a documentary that focused on his filmmaking tactics since, to put it simply, no documentary in history has ever reached the juggernaut status that Moore’s have achieved; Melnyk and Caine wanted to find out why.

Coming from the left side of the political spectrum, they didn’t think they’d have any problem securing an interview, but they were sorely mistaken. “We followed him around for nearly two-and-a-half years,” says Melnyk, laughing. During that long period of time, Melnyk and Caine ventured across the globe while tracking Moore’s ‘Slacker Uprising’ speaking tour of 2004 and other various appearances. Their relentless pursuit is recorded in their provocative documentary ‘Manufacturing Dissent,’ which has its worldwide premiere on Bravo! on November 2.

“We refocused the film because we couldn’t get the interview," says Caine. "When he was in town [Toronto] promoting ‘Fahrenheit 9/11,’ we thought we were going to get an interview because we’re Canadians, and we’re sympathetic to his political point of view." Not so. “The last email I sent Michael was in September 2006, when he was here showing clips of ‘Sicko’ at TIFF. We never got a response to any email or phone call.”

This response, or lack thereof, is in stark contrast to the lovable, caring, concerned Moore we see in his films. Melnyk and Caine, who both have backgrounds in journalism, smelled something fishy.

During the preparation and gathering of sources for the film, the duo encountered many unforeseen obstacles. Several people in Moore’s circles refused interviews in person and some outright declined to comment, for fear that “they may never find work again.” This, too, is odd, considering Moore’s stance on free speech. What skeletons was he hiding?

In ‘Manufacturing Dissent,’ we are shown a completely different man than the one depicted in his films and in the media. In some instances, it feels as if we’re chasing a high-profile political figure like George W. Bush – a phalanx of security guards monitor Moore at every turn. As the ‘Slacker Uprising’ tour progresses, the security gets more and more hostile towards Melnyk and Caine and at times it seems as though they are being singularly targeted.

In Detroit, a security team unplugs the duos' sound equipment to keep them from recording Moore’s speech. They are given no explanation as to why only they are prevented from recording. But things reach a head when the journalists arrive at Kent State University for another tour stop (Kent State being the infamous scene of the 1970 protestor massacre). Moore’s sister Anne and a bunch of security guards physically knock Caine’s camera from his hands and order them off the premises.

They couple were thrown out of a free event. “We didn’t want this to happen," says Melnyk.

Unsettling for anyone, the situation was even more jarring for people like Melnyk and Caine, who are sincere fans of Moore’s. Even when Melnyk gets in a few questions at a press conference, Moore deflects them with humour or simply inverts her questions. If there’s ever a smile, it looks almost sadistic as he cuts down any journalist who dares to ask a probing question.

‘Manufacturing Dissent’ doesn’t just look at Moore himself, but also at the methods he uses to get his message across. Melnyk and Caine probe his past movies and examine specific snippets of them – like the Charlton Heston sequence in ‘Bowling for Columbine’ – to test their journalistic integrity. “He totally lied to Charlton Heston to get the interview,” says Melnyk. “Heston was unfortunately suffering from dementia at that point too, or else he could have defended himself – and Michael Moore based this ‘gotcha’ moment on completely incorrect facts. And his holding the picture of the little girl up? That’s so obviously happening after Heston has walked away.”

Caine agrees. “There’s so much that’s troubling about the Charlton Heston sequence we couldn’t even fit it all in the movie.”



It doesn’t stop there, either. There are countless sequences in his movies that don’t jibe with actual fact. The whole premise of his breakthrough doc ‘Roger and Me’ was his quest to secure an interview with then-CEO of GM Roger Smith. He claims he never got the interview, but Jim Musselman, a former activist for Ralph Nader, asserts in ‘Manufacturing Dissent’ that Moore actually did – twice. It seems that Moore values the impact of certain information higher than the truth.

It is for this reason, insists Caine, that his movies aren’t more effective. “Sadly, one of the conclusions we had to come to was, [his films] didn’t change the gun culture in the US, they didn’t get Bush out of office, they didn’t save the industrial Midwest worker," he says. "They aren’t effective because he’s not telling the full truth.”

“What we’ve been wondering for some time is if you’re speaking half truths, is it half as effective, or maybe not effective at all because you’re giving the other side the opportunity to say this is a lie, this is a manipulation, this is a distortion," asks Caine. "If you can’t believe this, this, or this, then how is an audience going to believe the greater message?”

By the end of ‘Manufacturing Dissent,’ we begin to question the difference between Moore and his foil, George Bush, and we come to the conclusion that they aren't as dissimilar as we were lead to believe. Just as Bush is the figurehead for right-wing America, Moore takes the role for the left. Both use preacher-style inspirational speeches to get political fires burning. Both insult the other side and both distort facts to achieve their greater agendas.

The ultimate victim is the documentary itself. If it can’t rely on the truth of its accusations, then how is it any different than a blockbuster movie? “It’s a problem for Michael Moore’s credibility,” says Melnyk. “People come up to us and say they don’t know what to believe. I do think you should question everything, but...people think he’s just for entertainment now. And if it’s only about entertainment, then your message is losing its meaning.”

'Manufacturing Dissent's' worldwide premiere airs on Bravo! on November 2, 2007 at 8:30 PM EST.

And who is funding them The fund for Growth, The Enterprise Institute? Give me a break.

Hey there, James Leo.

Did you get that garbage taken out?

Whew, close one! I was afraid you were going to say he is a fat slob.

Gnarly,

My husband would say, "We?" "You got a rat in your pocket?"

Of course, at Thom's, it would have to be: "We?" "You got a rat gerbil in your pocket?"



***

[edit] Gnarly, did you change a "we" to "you"?

quote:

Hey there, James Leo.

Did you get that garbage taken out?

Yes I did but my garage is still a mess!! Maybe being here is avoiding what I need to do Thats what my wife tells me and I am beginning to believe her.
Good night

Heh. Tell your wife to get with the program. We have thinks to think. lol

quote:

Originally posted by --Kate:
My husband would say, "We?" "You got a rat in your pocket?"

My usual retort is "me and my intestinal parasite".

Truth is I would rather be playing my guitar right now.

I'd rather be skating around at Thom's, and gee, that's what "we're" doing.

quote:

Originally posted by Gnarlodious:

quote:

Originally posted by --Kate:
My husband would say, "We?" "You got a rat in your pocket?"

My usual retort is "me and my intestinal parasite".

quote:

Originally posted by Slabmaster:
The Awful Truth About Michael Moore

I am reminded of TSR, Inc (makers of Dungeons & Dragons). They were approached by 20/20 for an in-depth interview, supposedly to report on the phenomenal growth of the first major roleplaying game. The 20/20 people had expressed how fascinated they were by the game and how people of all ages were drawn to the game. Ego-stroked adequately, the TSR people agreed and provided 20/20 several hours of background, history, current activities, and plans for the future. Everybody was pleased. UNTIL....

When the piece aired, it turned out to be less than 5 minutes of the on-site TSR footage, sprinkled in with a lot of Christian anti-D&D campaign content. D&D, corrupter of our youth, snake in the garden, disguised actual witchcraft, etc. (Surprisingly, there was a favorable spike in sales shortly thereafter. )

The point of all this is that when the media comes calling and _looks_ to be your biggest fan, you have no actual assurance that you are NOT being ambushed. Media people in particularly aware of how the system works. And if anybody knows about the fine art of ambushes, it would be Moore, given how often he has employed the tactic himself.

Even if the film makers were in fact sincere, that much footage on a hot topic like Moore would be guaranteed to end up in the wrong hands -- where is would be sliced and diced and worked into a wealth of out-of-context pieces.

I can understand why Moore would not want to be the subject of a documentary himself. And why he and his Security would start to treat any media follow-the-leader puppies like paparazzi.

If there is ever a documentary done on him, I assure you that it will be Moore that controls 100% of the cameras and soundtrack, as well as the final editing. It's all about total control of content.

I thought about that as well Captain.
Moore is the master of rehtorec based infomercials spun to tell his version of very loose truths. When he has no truth, he creates it to his liking.

Moore could conceivably do the same docu-fiction about himself rather than have someone else make that money. He could control the "facts".
If someone could expose him, it would be refreshing, but Moore owns the Hollyweird elite, so I think anything on him will be downplayed through the media.

Why do you dislike Michael Moore so much? Have you ever even seen one of his films?

You don't have to agree with him, but he should have the right to make the kinds of films that he does, and quite honestly it is much better, well researched, and informative than half the crap out there.

Is this that fear thing again, rearing its ugly head?

I don't understand you rich, white, American men, every thing "different" seems to scare you, is that why you carry a gun around all the time?

quote:

Originally posted by Gnarlodious:
Whew, close one! I was afraid you were going to say he is a fat slob.

Why?

I've never said that in the past.
I did post his picture once and Brent carried on about his weight.
I disagree with his ethical behavior and ideas. I think he has a focused agenda which I disagree with.

Gnarly, rather than make snide accusations of what I have said or not said, can you show me where I might have made a comment like you suggest?

quote:

Originally posted by meljomur:
Why do you dislike Michael Moore so much? Have you ever even seen one of his films?

You don't have to agree with him, but he should have the right to make the kinds of films that he does, and quite honestly it is much better, well researched, and informative than half the crap out there.

Is this that fear thing again, rearing its ugly head?

I don't understand you rich, white, American men, every thing "different" seems to scare you, is that why you carry a gun around all the time?

Why do you associate "dislike" with my disagreeing with his positions, statements, agenda, ect...?
You are right, I don't have to agree with him. I don't.
He does have every right to make any film he chooses. That is the great thing about this country Mel, it's called freedom.
I also have the right to disagree, yet you find that as somehow being "afraid" of something. Weird.
Why do you dislike Rush Limbaugh so much Mel? You can disagree with him, but why are you sooooo afraid of something different? I don't understand you non-rich non-white non-American men and your fear of a different opinion.

I've delicately explained to you previously that I shoot and carry firearms because I enjoy it, and.....because I CAN! It has nothing to do with any form of fear.
Uh oh....freedom is rearing it's head again!

run away..........run away..........

What Slab and the other right wingers are doing is reiterating a common mantra: They Hate Michael Moore and why because he is successful at getting his message out. He combines top quality investigation with Hollywood entertainment gimmicks and the result is Documentary films that have an entertainment quality and they are successful; Successful financially, successful artistically successful in reaching to the public. There are many professional researchers and investigative journalists who provide better content than Moore. I admit and maybe (in private) even Michael Moore admits it. The fact he is can take the kind of material Greg Palast or Naomi Klein is associated with and reach a much greater audience. The right hates him for it. If you can't attack the message, kill the messenger.
Do a Fact Check on any of his films and you will find very few if any inaccuracies. Moore will survive this attack as he survived the others.In the meantime I am loving it. The right wing has talk radio and we will never be as successful at it. (sorry Air America) The progressives have the bloggs (Dialy Kos moveon.org) and Miichael Moore and the right will never surpass that jeandre` Oh my God, I used a French word. they are going to come after me.Bring it on.

quote:

Originally posted by James Leo:
What Slab and the other right wingers are doing is reiterating a common mantra: They Hate Michael Moore and why because he is successful at getting his message out.

Oh please James,

Some people may hate moore for whatever reason, but I'm not one of them.
I strongly dsagree with his creation of "facts" and rehtorec.
He's a phony infomercial and the liberal leftwing excuses his indescressions and fact creations in the name of fighting the evil right wing.
He's the Ann Coulter of the far left if that puts it in perspective.

Listen the more (no pun intended) controversy he creates, the more profitable he is, so in actual fact the right wing smear of him, makes him even more profitable, and therefore able to go on to his next project. I am sure he thanks them for all this attention, all the way to the bank

Overall, I like the Moore stuff that he puts out. I enjoyed "Farenheit 9/11" and "Sicko". But even as a bleeding heart Liberal, I recognize the spin he puts into his movies.

So what?

This genre of documentary was never meant to be simply a newsreel. They're opinion pieces _meant_ to push a political agenda, to make a point. You don't win arguments by saying, "This has generally been the case, except for these few exceptions." Whereas opponents WILL pounce on those exceptions and start to proclaim, "See?? He's lying to us!"

Let them. It creates a balance to the Universe when people paint pictures showing ONLY their views.

The world is not so simple as to have everything break down to Black & White comparisons. What we have is a myriad of grays. But everyone with a political agenda argues from the polar extremes it seems. [As if there is _anything_ in the world that is pure and unadulterated. ]

Does Michael Moore "tell the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth"? Of course not. In this day and age, who does?

quote:

Originally posted by CaptainPatch:
Overall, I like the Moore stuff that he puts out. I enjoyed "Farenheit 9/11" and "Sicko". But even as a bleeding heart Liberal, I recognize the spin he puts into his movies.

So what?

Does Michael Moore "tell the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth"? Of course not. In this day and age, who does?

When one coins his work as a documentary and sells it to the public as having facts presented, it should resemble some sort of fact. At least, documentaries of the past were sold that way.
Moore has created an entirely new description and you excuse it as no one tells the truth anyway, so why should he.
I disagree.

The constant railing about how Bush and Cheney lied, Powell lied, Rumsfeld lied, Rush lied, Ann Coulter lied, Hannity lied, ect.... must not have any merit.
Why tell the truth? In this day and age, who does?

I'd rather call it like it is and not excuse people who create their own truths to fit their agenda. Moore is a proven liar.

Read:
http://slate.com/id/2102723/

quote:

They Hate Michael Moore and why because he is successful at getting his message out.

It's not the messanger, it's the message. His message is that what we have built as Americans is wrong, unfair and stupid. He does this by distorting or telling half truths. He's not part of the solution, he's part of the problem.

quote:

Originally posted by Slabmaster:
I'd rather call it like it is and not excuse people who create their own truths to fit their agenda. Moore is a proven liar.

Read:
http://slate.com/id/2102723/

"Either the Saudis run U.S. policy (through family ties or overwhelming economic interest), or they do not."

As I said earlier, people pushing a political agenda tend to argue from the polar extremes. It's ALL _this_, or it's ALL _that_. They try to put as much distance between their position and their opponents' position as possible. "They over there _lie_; they're liars. They're not us, because we only tell the Truth."

Poppycock. We're swimming in lies. We're deluged by them from BOTH sides. If not direct lies, than lies by omission. If not by omission, then by deliberately misleading.

We have been so innundated by lies that if the Truth came up and bit us we wouldn't recognize it for what it was.

Facts? What are those? A fact should be so self-evident that it's irrefutable. Know of any facts that are NOT refuted by _somebody_ on the political stage?

At the end of the day, it's not about what is True; it's about what people _believe_. Belief has become Truth -- for those that hold that belief. Those that disagree are liars and/or fools. And that's about where the thinking stops. If you KNOW something to be so, how can anyone convince you otherwise? After all, if it's contrary, then that simply means that it's a lie. Ya know?

Is Micheal Moore telling the truth in "Sciko" Well the leading Nurses Association seems to think so. If you can't believe the nurses, who can you believe?


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Does Michael Moore's "SICKO" Have Its Facts Straight?

Bush Claims U.S. Has "The Best Health System In The World"
Source: American Society of Registered Nurses ### ASRN.ORG
Jun 16, 2007 Click to see PDF Version of this Press Release


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
(PRLog.Org) – SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA, JUNE 16, 2007 (ASRN.ORG) - Michael Moore's premier of "Sicko" was an overwhelming success at the Cannes Film Festival. When the curtain went down it received a 15-minute standing ovation, and had made even the most hardened journalists weep. It told the story of an American health system in crisis.

President Bush frequently calls the American health system "the best health system in the world." It is a bi-partisan statement used by both Republicans and Democrats alike. Republican Rudy Giuliani said it on the Presidential campaign trail this year and John Kerry said it while campaigning in 2004. Our question is simply, are these statements political rhetoric or factual?

The movie "Sicko" shows a family selling all their possessions and living in their daughter's storage room to afford health care. And they had medical insurance.

It shows terror suspects at Guantanamo getting better health care than most typical American families. It criticizes U.S. private insurance and pharmaceutical companies and HMOs. It praises socialized medicine in countries like France, the UK, and Canada.

Armed with plenty of statistics, Moore states, "the U.S. is the richest country in the world and spends more on health care than any other country, yet we have the worst health care system in the Western world." Moore says "the U.S. also has the lowest life expectancy and highest infant mortality rate in the Western world. Come on. We can do better than this."

Moore recently stated that the HMO and pharmaceutical industries are gearing up to fight "Sicko." Moore says he's getting so many great whistle blower letters, internal memos, and messages taken from servers, that he wants even more to stay "ahead of whatever they are up to."

We decided that we wanted to know just what the facts are. Is Moore right or is President Bush? Does America have the best health system in the world, as measured by life expectancy and infant mortality or is Moore right? Are we spending more than any other country in the Western world? And if so, are we getting the worst health care system for our dollars? Both sides have facts, but whose are right?

When we surveyed select counties across the world for life expectancy, which was defined as the life expectancy at birth for both sexes, the U.S. fared very poorly.

The U.S. came in 17th, tied with Cyprus, with a life expectancy of 78.0. Here are the countries in the top 17: Japan (81.4); Switzerland (80.6); Sweden (80.6); Australia (80.6); Canada (80.3); Italy (79.9); France (79.9); Spain (79.8); Norway (79.7); Israel (79.6); Greece (79.4); Austria (79.2); New Zealand (79.0); Germany (79.0); U.K. (78.7); Finland (78.7); Cyprus (78.0); and the U.S. (78.0).

In our survey of select countries across the world for infant mortality, which was defined as the number of deaths per 1,000 live births, the U.S. again did poorly.

The U.S. came in 16th, below South Korea, with an infant mortality rate of 6.4. Here are the countries in the top 16: Sweden (2.8); Japan (3.2); Finland (3.5); Norway (3.6); Czech Republic (3.9); France (4.2); Spain (4.3); Denmark (4.5); Austria (4.5); Canada (4.6); Australia (4.6); Portugal (4.9); UK (5.0); New Zealand (5.7); South Korea (6.1); U.S. (6.4).

The next question is whether the U.S. truly spends more than any other country in the world on health care. This would indeed indicate a mismanagement of funds budgeted for the health care system.

While there may be mitigating circumstances, these would have to be deemed controllable by the most powerful nation on earth.

We then surveyed per capita health expenditures, by country, which was defined as the sum of public and private expenditures, in U.S. dollars, divided by the population. Health expenditure includes the provision of health services (preventive and curative); family planning activities, nutrition activities and emergency aid designated for health, but excludes the provision of water and sanitation.

Again, Moore's facts checked out. The U.S. spends $5,711 per person. That's a whopping 33% more than the next highest spending country, Norway. Norway spends only $3,809 per person.

Here are the top 27 highest per capita spending countries in the world: U.S. ($5,711); Norway ($3,809); Switzerland ($3,776); Luxembourg ($3,776); Iceland ($3,110); Germany ($3,001); Canada ($2,989); Netherlands ($2,987); France ($2,902); Australia ($2,874); Denmark ($2,762); Sweden ($2,704); Ireland ($2,496); U.K. ($2,389); Austria ($2,306); Italy ($2,266); Japan ($2,244); Finland ($2,108); Greece ($1,997); Israel ($1,911); New Zealand ($1,893); Spain ($1,853); Portugal ($1,791); Slovenia ($1,669); Malta ($1,436); Czech Republic ($1,302).

Finally, If the U.S. truly has the "best health care system in the world" you'd expect it to have the highest number of physicians per 100,000 people. Or else it should be very, very close to the top of the list.

However, this time the results are shocking. The U.S. isn't even on the list of the top thirty countries in the world that have the highest number of physicians per 100,000 people.

These top 30 countries are, by number of physicians to 100,000 people: Cuba (591); Saint Lucia (517); Belarus (455); Belgium (449); Estonia (448); Greece (438); Russian Federation (425); Italy (420); Turkmenistan (418); Georgia (409); Lithuania (397); Israel (382); Uruguay (365); Iceland (362); Switzerland (361); Armenia (359); Bulgaria (356); Azerbaijan (355); Kazakhstan (354); Czech Republic (351); Portugal (342); Austria (338); France (337); Germany (337); Hungary (333); Spain (330); Sweden (328); Lebanon (325); Malta (318); Slovakia (318).

Michael Moore's style aside, it's hard to argue the facts.

# # #

About ASRN: The American Society of Registered Nurses was founded in May 2003 for the purpose of bringing together professional registered nurses. Today, ASRN has active registered nurse members in all 50 States and four US territories. ASRN brings together nurses from all fields of inquiry, regions, and specializations both inside and outside academe in order to expand the study and practice of nursing, and offer support, representation, education, and distinction to its members. Additional information is available on its web site, www.asrn.org.
#

http://fahrenheit_fact_check.blogspot.com/
Here is Fahrenheit 9/11 Fact Check. The big issue was what happened on 9/13 when members of the Bin Laden family were given permission by Richard Clarke to leave. Many of the Moore haters claim Michael said the decision came directly from G.W Bush. The movie never makes that claim but says the Bush Administration made that decision. That is true. The fact remains, members of the Bin Laden family were never questioned as to what they knew about Osama Bin Laden and their knowledge of 9/11. Maybe they knew nothing. Maybe they had valuable information but now We will never know.
The perception is and I personally believe is the Bush Administration exploited the events of 9/11 to promote their neo-con agenda and everyone who questioned them would be considered a traitor. This is right out of the playbook of Herman Goering.

He would have sent Moore to the gas chambers where he belongs

Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.


Tell me honestly, Karl Rove didn't take a page from this. Tell honestly and truthfully we weren't duped! All of NYC knows that. I find it amazing that the people furtherest away from the WTC pretend to know all of the details and they were not even there. Its the Rhistag burning all over agin Well I was and Michael Moore or not we were manipulated and exploited!! Maybe some of you cannot convince yourselves of that. Maybe at this moment you are not ready to believe that. but the truth is the truth regardless of how many believe it.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: James Leo,

One should never trust a man who openly admits to biased propaganda.

Who are you speaking of? Michael Moore, Hermann Goering or me?

quote:

Originally posted by Sawdust:

quote:

They Hate Michael Moore and why because he is successful at getting his message out.

It's not the messanger, it's the message. His message is that what we have built as Americans is wrong, unfair and stupid. He does this by distorting or telling half truths. He's not part of the solution, he's part of the problem.

Actually, Moore's movie came pretty close to depicting my own experience with several health insurance firms, including my present one. I was a caregiver for someone who died because his ins. wouldn't provide testing to uncover several potentially fatal conditions. I've had my own prescription denied.

I could make a laundry list if you like. In my line of work, you see, hear, and learn a lot about the health-care industry.

Retired Monk
"Ideology is a disease"

James,

quote:

Originally posted by James Leo:
Who are you speaking of? Michael Moore, Hermann Goering or me?

In the light of what it is that I'm here to do, does it really matter?

quote:

Actually, Moore's movie came pretty close to depicting my own experience with several health insurance firms, including my present one.


Moore exaggerated the flaws in our system and ignored or omitted the flaws in Cuban and European systems. He didn't show the deplorable conditions in Cuban hospitals and didn't mention rationed care and people pulling their own teeth in Britain.

Here's the Cuba Moore didn't use in his propaganda.

You want to talk about bureaucracy and waste?
Well I know one physical therapist and one nutritionist (registered dietitian) in private practice and they both have to hire full time HMO entry people. This is a specialist created by the proliferation of HMO's who have created a maze of paper work and claim codes that must be processed.
These private bureaucrats - thats what they are, do nothing but process claims in order for third party's to receive payment.
Its a nightmare and its causing many professionals including physicians to get out of medicine all together Its disgusting and its increasing health care costs

That's what happens when you let Government get involved in business James. I do business with a small one branch bank. Sarbanes Oxley costs them four hundred thousand dollars a year in compliance. The congress was influenced by insurance companies to craft managed care.

If government had stayed out of the business of medicine, doctors could probably still make house calls. Agreed, I would cost a pretty penny.

The answer to our insurance problems is to let market forces correct insurance company abuses.

quote: "The answer to our insurance problems is to let market forces correct insurance company abuses."

Before Medicare, one half of the senior population of the U.S. had no health insurance.

Contending that the market can or will address such deficiencies is to deny historical fact.

To deny this fact is to take the Ron Paul position.

Manged Care was created to steer discussion from Single Payer and keep people out of the emergency rooms. It has been a failure. As one colleague said it, "We are not managing care, we are managing costs" and I will add not doing a very good job of it. The private HMO"s have created a bureaucracy of private individuals who either get paid to deny or ration care or process claims. Its a mess and there is little or no regulation of it.
This "knee jerk" response of blaming the government doesn't fly anymore with most people.
Incidentally, "Sicko" is now being shown in MPH and nursing classes. It rings true with the professionals In my opinion the Cuban scenes "were typical Michael Moore shock treatment that distracted from the main points but even that got results. Now, all WTC workers, union government or not, are getting the care they need. Moore managed to shame the establishment into doing the right thing and I applaud him for doing it.

Its interesting to note that the biggest adcovates for single payer systems are the Automobile manfactures (even Toyotta) and groups like Kaiser-Permante who claim the current system is unsustainable! Even the HMO's are saying the system is on the verge of collapse

quote:

Its interesting to note that the biggest adcovates for single payer systems are the Automobile manfactures (even Toyotta) and groups like Kaiser-Permante who claim the current system is unsustainable! Even the HMO's are saying the system is on the verge of collapse

What's interesting is that when you agree with the position of corporations they are valuable allies and when you don't they are evil.

The auto makers want to scrape their legacy costs off onto the general public instead of car buyers. They cut bad union deals in the seventies and eighties when they had no foreign competition and now they are suffering for it.

quote:

They cut bad union deals in the seventies and eighties when they had no foreign competition and now they are suffering for it.

Hmmm. Something about the price, and availability, of oil might also have something to do with the auto industry's financial challenges.

Walter Reuiter negotiated in good faith and
is responsible for the standard of living we all enjoy. I don't consider the Auto Industry or any other industry "evil" I will say Henry Ford was a traitor in that he was dealing with Hitler even during the war and was operating plants in Germany.
He should have been tried for treason just like the Rosenbergs but thats water under the bridge.
The fact is the system is failing and everyone knows it but no one has the guts to come out and admit it. You can attend a Public Health Lecture with MPH and PH d's and they will all reiterate what Moore said (in a dry lecture and give you a ton of statistics) Moore made public health exciting and almost entertaining. Any true progressive from Upton Sinclair to Ghandi to King to Samuel Gompers will be the object of hate and ridicule. it always was and I believe always will be.
What did Ghandi say?
"First they will ignore you, then they will attack you. Then you fight. The you win"

quote:

The fact is the system is failing and everyone knows it but no one has the guts to come out and admit it

I totally disagree. Are we perfect? Perfection is impossible. If you want to see failure look at England. What you dislike is that health care costs money and treatment is often associated with sad stories. England is a classic example of publicly funded, universal, socialist state medicine. Their system is collapsing, their doctors leave and practice where they can make a good living, they are rationing care and their citizens are leaving the country for treatment when the line is too long for them to get treated. Break a leg, they see you right away. Need a pacemaker, wait your turn.

On the other hand, health care here is expensive but there is no shortage of doctors, facilities and equipment. We treat everyone who needs treatment however although the financial consequences for those who have made no prior arrangements can be unfortunate.

It's sad to say but I believe that as time goes by, I think you are right about one thing. Socialism is spreading in this country. Like cancer that will eventually kill us.

quote:

It's sad to say but I believe that as time goes by, I think you are right about one thing. Socialism is spreading in this country. Like cancer that will eventually kill us.

I see no proof of that anymore. what I see is people no longer willing to sacrifice themselves and their families in the name of the holy Free Market.

What free market?

quote:

Originally posted by --Kate:

Hmmm. Something about the price, and availability, of oil might also have something to do with the auto industry's financial challenges.

Why doesn't the price affect Toyota, Honda, Mitsubishi, Hyundi, Kia, Volkswagon, Mercedes, Porsche, BMW, etc... as it does Ford, Chrysler, and GM?
It's not an industry problem. It's legacy costs inflating the unit cost of Detroit made cars.
Excess overhead will kill ya.

quote:

On the other hand, health care here is expensive but there is no shortage of doctors, facilities and equipment. We treat everyone who needs treatment however although the financial consequences for those who have made no prior arrangements can be unfortunate.

Thats not entirely true. There are shortages in parts of the south Mississippi, Eastern Washington, the Appalachian Region In many inner cities you see these bizarre clinics called "Medicaid Mills" that provide a very poor quality of care. We spend billions on MRI machinery Tertiary care but do little to prevent disease. I don't' what the John Stossel's say. Its a mess and there is no MPH, Physician, clinic manager, patient advocate who would agree with your assertions

quote:

Originally posted by Sawdust:

quote:

Actually, Moore's movie came pretty close to depicting my own experience with several health insurance firms, including my present one.


Moore exaggerated the flaws in our system and ignored or omitted the flaws in Cuban and European systems. He didn't show the deplorable conditions in Cuban hospitals and didn't mention rationed care and people pulling their own teeth in Britain.

Here's the Cuba Moore didn't use in his propaganda.

This is not a direct rebuttal, but rather an overall comment about the methodology of spin.

On the one hand, we have Moore and his presentation of the US versus Cuban medical systems. Moore shows deficiency after deficiency in the US and glowing examples in Cuba. The Right comes out and contends, "He focused on a few US faults and made it appear as if that is the norm. Meanwhile, he shows a couple good things in Cuba and makes that look like the norm while ignoring the much more prevalent shortcomings in Cuba."

As a counter balance, we are shown this material from Hannity & Colmes based on material garnered from "Cuban expat George Utset". Now, just as Moore has an axe to grind with the US medical community, Utset, a Cuban expatriate of Cuba, has an axe to grind with Cuba. Utset's material shows all of the shortcomings one might expect in a Third World nation.

Now, pointedly, neither feature is exhaustive, showing no more than a fraction of what there is to be seen in either the US or Cuba. How do you determine which shows "Truth" and which shows fabrication?

Depends on which way your beliefs _already_ run. Both of these features "preach to the choir", reinforcing what people already **want** to believe. And both sides use their version of Reality as "proof" that We are correct and They are wrong.

In the end, has anything changed?

What is fascinating about this link is that is comes from John - The free maket will fix everything Stossel's parent company ABC

ABC News
U.S. Babies Die at Higher Rate
Infant Mortality Rates Are Rising in U.S., While Rates in Other Countries Are Improving
By MARC LALLANILLA

Nov. 1, 2005 —

What's causing the increased death rate among babies in the United States?

While the health of infants in many countries is improving, babies born in the United States now face an increased risk of dying in the first year of life.

The U.S. infant mortality rate is on the rise for the first time since 1958, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. In 2001, the infant mortality rate was 6.8 deaths per 1,000 live births -- in 2002, the rate rose to 7.0. (2003 data is not yet complete.)

At the same time, other countries are improving their infant mortality rates to the point that they have surpassed the United States. Cuba, for example, reported a lower 2002 rate than the United States at 6.3.

The CIA World Factbook estimates the infant mortality rate in the United States is now comparable to Croatia, Lithuania and Taiwan. Most analysts currently rank the United States 28th in the world in infant mortality, far behind other industrialized nations such as Sweden, France, Japan and Germany.

Premature Births Increase in U.S.

According to health care experts, there is no simple explanation for the increase in U.S. infant mortality.

"But there are a number of factors that could contribute," said Dr. William A. Engle, neonatologist with the Indiana University School of Medicine in Indianapolis.

"The number of babies born pre-term has increased in general, and pre-term populations are at a higher risk for morbidity and mortality," Engle said.

Births of two or more babies are often associated with prematurity, and, Engle said, "the number of multiple births has increased." Some of these multiple births are the result of fertility drugs and in-vitro fertilization procedures.

Engle explained that while a normal, healthy gestation period is 40 weeks, because of the increased number of pre-term deliveries, the gestation period in the United States now averages just 39 weeks. "The 34- to 37-week gestation group has increased over the last 10 years," he said. "There are fewer births after 40 weeks than there were even a few years ago."

African-American Rates Alarmingly High

Within the United States, there are important differences in the infant mortality rates between racial groups and across geographic boundaries.

"Infant mortality rates tends to trend with socio-economic status," said Dr. Nancy Green, medical director for the March of Dimes. "African-Americans have much, much higher rates of infant mortality than other groups."

The rate among African-Americans is nearly double that of the general population: 13.9 versus 7.0. Rates among some other ethnic minorities also tend to be higher: the infant mortality rate among Puerto Ricans is 8.2, and for Native Americans, the rate is 9.1.

"Some of that is due to poverty but it doesn't track perfectly with poverty," said Green. The infant mortality rate among Central and South American immigrants, for example, is only 5.1.

Infant mortality rates also vary from state to state. "The states in the Southeast tend to have higher infant mortality rates than others," said Green. Most of the Southeast has rates exceeding 7.5, while most West Coast and Northeast states have rates below 6.2.

Health Care Lessons to Learn

Part of the reason U.S. infant mortality is rising in comparison to other countries is because while the U.S. rate has remained fairly stable, many other countries have greatly improved their health care systems.

"There has been a huge shift in infant mortality rates in what we call 'middle-income countries,'" said Christopher P. Howson, vice-president for global programs for the March of Dimes, referring to nation like Cuba and the Czech Republic.

Howson attributes much of this improvement to enhanced vaccination programs, improved nutrition and public hygiene, and a safer environment for families.

"We should look at these countries for lessons that we can learn and apply back in our country," said Howson.

Copyright © 2007 ABC News Internet Ventures

quote:

Originally posted by James Leo:
We spend billions on MRI machinery

Just as a sidenote about MRIs: I find it interesting that much of the debate about Canada's quality of care was being reduced to an argument about how many MRIs per 100,000 people they had, compared to the same ratio in the US. I've had an ongoing battle with my workers' comp insurance company (Travelers) concerning a back injury. My primary caregiver has been insisting that I need to have a MRI to see what's happening with my lumbar and thorascic spinal regions. The insurance company has steadfastly refused to authorize the MRI because, "....Relying solely on imaging studies to evaluate the source of low back and related symptoms carries a significant risk of diagnostic confusion (false positive test results) because of the possibility of identifying a finding that was present before symptoms began and therefore has no temporal association with the symptoms....Because the overall false positive rate is 30% for imaging studies in patients over age 30 who do not have symptoms, the risk of diagnostic confusion is great." So, even though there is a _70%_ chance of spotting what is wrong, they won't authorize the MRI unless there are definitive other test results to confirm what the MRi might see -- tests that Travelerers also refuses to authorize because there are no other test results to indicate that they are needed.

God, I hate Travelers.

So, anyway, what good is having a MRI machine if the insurance companies don't want to pay for their use, and then they question the findings anyway if they are used?

Here is a good link the outlines the good and the bad and there is bad. NO one is saying we should trade our system for theirs but Cuba has superior care to the Dominican Republic, Jamaica and even Puerto Rico

Medical staff in Cuba

According to the World Health Organization, Cuba provides a doctor for every 170 residents,[31] and has the second highest doctor to patient ratio in the world after Italy.[32] All fiscal and administrative aspects of health care in Cuba are run by the state; no private hospitals or clinics are permitted, and medical workers are required to work for the state. Historically, Cuba has long ranked high in numbers of medical personnel; in 1957, before the revolution, it ranked third in Latin America and ahead of many European nations. Medical professionals are not paid high salaries by national or international standards. In 2002 the mean monthly salary was 261 pesos, thus 1.5 times the national mean.[33] A doctor’s salary is equivalent to about US$15-20 per month according to the official rate of exchange between peso and dollar. Therefore, many prefer to work in different occupations, generally in the lucrative tourist industry, where earnings can be 50 to 60 times more.[12]

[edit] Black market healthcare

The difficulty in gaining access to certain medicines and treatments has led to healthcare playing an increasing role in Cuba's burgeoning black market economy, sometimes termed "sociolismo". According to former leading Cuban neurosurgeon and dissident Dr Hilda Molina, "The doctors in the hospitals are charging patients under the table for better or quicker service." Prices for out-of-surgery X-rays have been quoted at $50 to $60.[34] Such "under-the-table payments" reportedly date back to the 1970s, when Cubans used gifts and tips in order to get health benefits. The harsh economic downturn know as the "Special Period" in the 1990s aggravated these payments. The advent of the "dollar economy", a temporary legalisation of the dollar which led some Cubans to receive dollars from their relatives outside of Cuba, meant that a class of Cubans were able to obtain medications and health services that would not be available to them otherwise.[35]

[edit] Cuba and international healthcare

Cuba has entered into agreements with United Nations agencies specializing in health: PAHO/WHO, UNICEF, the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO), the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA), and the United Nations Development Fund (UNDP). Since 1989, this collaboration has played a very important role in that Cuba, in addition to obtaining the benefits of being a member country, has strengthened its relations with institutions of excellence and has been able to disseminate some of its own advances and technologies[17]

Because the education of physicians came to exceed the country's internal requirements, Cuba has been able to export primary care practitioners and specialists for periods of service in other Third World nations. Cuban doctors have therefore played a role in many regions of the world. Cuba's missions in 68 countries are manned by 25,000 Cuban doctors, and medical teams have assisted victims of both the South Asian Tsunami and the Pakistan earthquake.[36] Cuba currently exports considerable health services and personnel to Venezuela in exchange for subsidized oil.[37] Nearly 2,000 Cuban doctors are currently working in Africa in countries including South Africa, Gambia, Guinea Bissau and Mali.[38] Since the Chernobyl nuclear plant exploded in 1986, more than 20,000 children from Ukraine, Belarus and Russia have traveled to Cuba for treatment of radiation sickness and psychologically based problems associated with the radiation disaster.[39]

Cuban doctors play a primary role in the Mission Barrio Adentro (Spanish: "Mission Into the Neighborhood") social welfare program established in Venezuela under current Venezuelan president Hugo Chávez.[40] The program, which is popular among Venezuela's poor and is intended to bring doctors and other medical services to the most remote slums of Venezuela,[41] has not been without its detractors. The Venezuelan Medical Association has criticised the appointment of Cuban doctors to high-ranking positions,[42] and protests have taken place in the capital Caracas by Venezuelan medical staff who fear that the Cubans are a threat to Venezuelan jobs. Questions have also been raised by protestors about the level of Cuban medical qualifications, and there have been claims that the Cubans are "political agents" who have come to Venezuela to indoctrinate the workforce.[41]

[edit] Operación Milagro

See also: Healthcare of Venezuela

Operación Milagro (Operation Miracle) is a joint health programme between Cuba and Venezuela, set up in 2005. The initiative is part of the Sandino commitment, which sees both countries coming together with the aim of offering free ophthalmology operations to an estimated 6 million people in Latin America and the Caribbean.[43] The project is also part of ALBA (Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas). Under the agreement, patients from Venezuela and other Latin American nations, are flown to into Cuba for eye surgeries and other major treatments. This is part of a package which includes the Cuban personnel sent to Venezuela (see above) and the fact that Venezuela sent 90,000 barrels of crude oil per day at preferential rates. In late 2005, Operación Milagro was extended to Panamanians,[44] and in June 2006 to Nicaraguans.[45] All flights, accommodation and food are funded by the Venezuelan government. The scheme was intended to expand to 500,000 operations a year in 2006.[46]

Opponents of the Cuban government accuse it of sending the doctors to Venezuela for political motives. [47]

[edit] Health tourism and pharmaceutics

Cuba attracts nearly 20000[48] paying health tourists, generating revenues of around $40m a year for the Cuban economy. Cuba has been serving health tourists from around the world for more than 20 years. The country operates a special division of hospitals specifically for the treatment of foreigners and diplomats. Foreign patients travel to Cuba for a wide range of treatments including eye-surgery, neurological disorders such as multiple sclerosis and Parkinsons disease, cosmetic surgery, addictions treatment, retinitis pigmentosa and orthopaedics. Most patients are from Latin America, Europe and Canada, and a growing number of Americans also are coming. Cuba also successfully exports many medical products, such as vaccines.[49]

[edit] Alternative Healthcare

Economic constraints and restrictions on medicines have forced the Cuban health system to incorporate alternative and herbal solutions to healthcare issues, which can be more accessible and affordable to a broader population[1] In the 1990’s, the Cuban Ministry of Public Health officially recognized natural and traditional medicine and began its integration into the already well established Western medicine model.[50] Examples of alternative techniques used by the clinics and hospitals include: flower essence, neural and hydromineral therapies, homeopathy, traditional Chinese medicine (i.e. acupunctural anesthesia for surgery), natural dietary supplements, yoga, electromagnetic and laser devices.[50] Children begin studying the multiple uses of medicinal plants in primary school, learning to grow and tend their own plots of aloe, chamomile, and mint, and later they conduct scientific studies about their uses. Radio and Television programs instruct people on how to relieve common stomach upset and headaches by pressing key points.[51] Cuban bio-chemists have produced a number of new alternative medicines, including PPG® (policosanol), a natural product derived from sugarcane wax that is effective at reducing total cholesterol and LDL levels, and Vimang® a natural product derived from the bark of mango trees.[50]

[edit] Medical research in Cuba
Please help improve this article or section by expanding it.
Further information might be found on the talk page or at requests for expansion. (January 2007)

The Cuban Ministry of Health produces a number of medical journals including the ACIMED, the Cuban Journal of Surgery and the Cuban Journal of Tropical Medicine. Because private investment is prohibited and the only possible source of funds for research is the government, Medical research has not been able to expand beyond the Cuban governments ability to fund the research.

In April 2007, the The Cuba IPV Study Collaborative Group (Cuban Ministry of Public Health, Kourí Institute, U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Pan American Health Organization, World Health Organization) published an article in the New England Journal of Medicine which established that inactivated (killed) poliovirus vaccine was effective in vaccinating children in tropical conditions. This is important because countries with high incidence of polio are now using live oral poliovirus vaccine. When polio is eliminated in a country, they must stop using the live vaccine, because it has a slight risk of reverting to the dangerous form of polio. The Cuba collaborative group found that when polio is eliminated in a population, they could safely switch to killed vaccine and be protected from recurrent epidemics. Cuba has been free of polio since 1963, but continues with mass immunization campaigns. [PMID 17429085]

[edit] Praise for the Cuban Healthcare System

In 2006, BBC flagship news programme Newsnight featured Cuba's Healthcare system as part of a series identifying "the world's best public services". The report noted that "Thanks chiefly to the American economic blockade, but partly also to the web of strange rules and regulations that constrict Cuban life, the economy is in a terrible mess: national income per head is minuscule, and resources are amazingly tight. Healthcare, however, is a top national priority" The report stated that life expectancy and infant mortality rates are pretty much the same as the USA's. Its doctor-to-patient ratios stand comparison to any country in Western Europe. Its annual total health spend per head, however, comes in at $251; just over a tenth of the UK's. The report concluded that the population's admirable health is one of the key reasons why Castro is still in power.[52] In fact, a recent poll carried out by the Gallup Organization's Costa Rican affiliate — Consultoría Interdisciplinaria en Desarrollo (CID) — found that about three-quarters of Cuban citizens are positive about their country's education and healthcare systems.[53]

In 2000, Secretary General of the United Nations Kofi Annan stated that "Cuba should be the envy of many other nations" adding that achievements in social development are impressive given the size of its gross domestic product per capita. "Cuba demonstrates how much nations can do with the resources they have if they focus on the right priorities - health, education, and literacy."[54] The Kaiser Family Foundation, a non-governmental organization that evaluated Cuba’s healthcare system in 2000-1 described Cuba as "a shining example of the power of public health to transform the health of an entire country by a commitment to prevention and by careful management of its medical resources"[55] President of the World Bank James Wolfensohn also praised Cuba's healthcare system in 2001, saying that "Cuba has done a great job on education and health", at the annual meeting of the Bank and the International Monetary Fund. Wayne Smith, former head of the US Interests Section in Havana identified "the incredible dedication" of Cubans to healthcare, adding that "Doctors in Cuba can make more driving cabs and working in hotels, but they don't. They're just very dedicated".[56] Dr. Robert N. Butler, president of the International Longevity Center in New York and a Pulitzer Prize-winning author on aging, has traveled to Cuba to see firsthand how doctors are trained. He said a principal reason that some health standards in Cuba approach the high American level is that the Cuban system emphasizes early intervention. Clinic visits are free, and the focus is on preventing disease rather than treating it. [57] Furthermore, London's The Guardian newspaper lauded Cuba's public healthcare system for what it viewed as its high quality in a Sept. 12, 2007 article. [58]

[edit] Studies of the Cuban health system in the United Kingdom

In 2001, members of the UK House of Commons Health Select Committee traveled to Cuba and issued a report that paid tribute to "the success of the Cuban healthcare system", based on its "strong emphasis on disease prevention" and "commitment to the practice of medicine in a community".[52]

The Parliament of the United Kingdom also drew up an analysis of the key features of Cuba's healthcare system, drawing comparisons with the state funded National Health Service (NHS). The overall conclusion was that many of the features identified would not have occurred had there not been an obvious commitment to health provision demonstrated by the protection and proportion of the budget given the health care. The study concluded the following.

* There appeared to be little evidence of a divide between the prevention/proactive response and the disease management/reactive response within Cuban healthcare.
* By far the biggest difference was the ratio of doctors per person. In Cuba it was one doctor per 175 people, in the UK the figure was one doctor per 600 people.
* There is a commitment in Cuba to the triple diagnosis (physical/psychological/social) at all levels.
* Extensive involvement of "patient" and the public in decision making at all levels.
* Integration of hospital/community/primary care via polyclinics.
* Team-work that works is much more evident both in the community and the hospital sector and the mental-health and care of the elderly sites visited were very well staffed and supported.

The study also pointed to problems within the system, these included;

* Low pay of doctors
* Poor facilities—buildings in poor state of repair and mostly outdated.
* Poor provision of equipment.
* Frequent absence of essential drugs.
* Concern regarding freedom of choice both for patient and doctor.[59]

WHO health statistics for Cuba
Source: WHO country page on Cuba Life expectancy at birth m/f: 75.0/80.0 (years)
Healthy life expectancy at birth m/f: 67.1/69.5 (years)
Child mortality m/f: 8/7 (per 1000)
Adult mortality m/f: 131/85 (per 1000)
Total health expenditure per capita: $251
Total health expenditure as % of GDP: 7.3

[edit] Criticisms

The US State Department, citing many independent sources, states that Cuba's infant mortality rate in 1957 was the lowest in Latin America and the 13th lowest in the world, according to UN data. Cuba ranked ahead of France, Belgium, West Germany, Israel, Japan, Austria, Italy, and Spain, all of which would eventually pass Cuba in this indicator during the following decades. Cuba’s comparative world ranking has fallen from 13th to last out of the 25 countries examined. Also missing from the conventional analysis of Cuba's infant mortality rates is its very high abortion rate, which, because of selective termination of "high-risk" pregnancies, yields lower numbers for infant mortality. Cuba's abortion rate was the 3rd highest out of the 60 countries studied. In terms of physicians and dentists per capita, Cuba in 1957 ranked third in Latin America, behind only Uruguay and Argentina -- both of which exceeded the United States in this measure. Cuba's physicians and dentists in 1957 was the same as the Netherlands, and ahead of the United Kingdom and Finland. The report states "Unfortunately, the UN statistical yearbook no longer publishes these statistics, so more recent comparisons are not possible, but it is completely erroneous to characterize pre-Revolutionary Cuba as backward in terms of healthcare."[6]

Complaints have arisen that foreign "health tourists" paying with dollars and senior Communist party officials receive a higher quality of care than Cuban citizens. Former leading Cuban neurosurgeon and dissident Dr Hilda Molina asserts that the central revolutionary objective of free, quality medical care for all has been eroded by Cuba's need for foreign currency. Molina says that following the economic collapse known in Cuba as the Special Period, the Cuban Government established mechanisms designed to turn the medical system into a profit-making enterprise. This creates an enormous disparity in the quality of healthcare services between foreigners and Cubans leading to a form of tourist apartheid. In 1998 she said that foreign patients were routinely inadequately or falsely informed about their medical conditions to increase their medical bills or to hide the fact that Cuba often advertises medical services it is unable to provide.[60] Others makes similar claims, also stating that senior Communist party and military officials can access this higher quality system free of charge.[7][8] In 2005, an account written by Cuban exile and critic of Fidel Castro, Carlos Wotzkow, appeared showing apparent unsanitary and unsafe conditions in the "Clínico Quirúrgico" of Havana;the article claims that health care for Cubans occurs in worse conditions in the rest of the country.[61]

An article in Canadian newspaper National Post, based interviews of Cubans, finds that in reality even the most common pharmaceutical items, such as Aspirin and antibiotics are conspicuously absent or only available on the black market. Surgeons lack basic supplies and must re-use latex gloves. Patients must buy their own sutures on the black market and provide bedsheets and food for extended hospital stays.[9] The Cuban government blames the shortages on the embargo and states that those with more severe chronic diseases receive medicines.[10] However, other sources suggest that also those with such diseases lack medicines. It is also suggested that in some cases the local non-dollar stocks have been shipped abroad. [11][12]

An article in The Boston Globe, partially based on interviews with Cubans, argues that the massive export of doctors and other medical personal to Venezuela in exchange for oil has caused shortages in Cuba. Regarding Operación Milagro, "It's all the Venezuelans who need cataracts surgery first, and then the Cubans if there's any time left", said Georgina, 60, a retired Havana clerk.[13]

A recent ABC-TV 20/20 report on Healthcare, based on footage taken from within the island, criticized Michael Moore's portrayals of the Cuban Healthcare system. The report highlights the dilapitated conditions of the hospitals that are accessible to regular Cubans by pointing to the bleak conditions of hospital rooms and the filthy conditions of the facilities. The report also addressed the quality of care available to Cubans by arguing that patient neglect was a common phenomenon. Finally, in discussing the infant mortality rate, the report highlights the government's efforts to promote abortions of potentially infirm fetuses and other government efforts to manipulate the rate.[62]

[edit] See also
Cuba Portal

* Carlos Finlay
* Cuban Journal of Tropical Medicine
* Cuban Journal of Surgery
* Cuban Center of molecular immunology
* Latin American School of Medicine (Cuba)
* Sicko (film)

[edit] External links

* Letter from Cuba Cuba: plenty of care, few condoms, no corruption. Hans Veeken, public health consultant, Medecins Sans Frontieres. BMJ 1995;311:935-937 (7 October)
* Cuba AIDS Project — HIV and AIDS in Cuba
* Cuban Healthcare: First World Results on a Third World Budget (The Guardian, London)
* Keeping Cuba healthy BBC Newsnight report
* Powerpoint presentation on Healthcare in Cuba by Dr. Peter Bourne
* Apartheid in Cuba's Health system
* UN HDI — Human Development Index for Cuba from UN
* The Real Cuba Op-Ed Anti-Castro site, with photos of dilapidated and unsanitary hospital conditions that are purported to be the standard for ordinary Cubans
* Escuela Latinoamericana de Medicina (Latin American School of Medicine). ELAM, Cuba's medical school, with 10,000 students
* CARICOM and Cuba to sign historic health agreement — (29-May 2007)

[hide]
v • d • e
Health care in North America
Sovereign states Antigua and Barbuda · Bahamas · Barbados · Belize · Canada · Costa Rica · Cuba · Dominica · Dominican Republic · El Salvador · Grenada · Guatemala · Haiti · Honduras · Jamaica · Mexico · Nicaragua · Panama* · Saint Kitts and Nevis · Saint Lucia · Saint Vincent and the Grenadines · Trinidad and Tobago* · United States
Dependencies and
other territories Anguilla · Aruba* · Bermuda · British Virgin Islands · Cayman Islands · Greenland · Guadeloupe · Martinique · Montserrat · Navassa Island · Netherlands Antilles* · Puerto Rico · Saint Barthélemy · Saint Martin · Saint Pierre and Miquelon · Turks and Caicos Islands · U. S. Virgin Islands
* Territories also in or commonly reckoned elsewhere in the Americas (South America).

[edit] References

1. ^ a b Harvard Public Health Review/Summer 2002 The Cuban Paradox
2. ^ El Médico Chino Professor Luis Enrique Ramos Guadalupe. Habana Radio
3. ^ Official site of the Finlay medical center
4. ^ a b The Philip S. Hench Walter Reed Yellow Fever On-line Collection [02954005&query=james+carroll Online]
5. ^ Clara Louise Maass
6. ^ Gott, R. (2004) Cuba: A New History (Yale : Yale University Press) p165. ISBN 0-300-10411-1
7. ^ Hugh Thomas, Cuba : The pursuit of Freedom. p968-970 "[since the revolution] The distribution of food has been erratic. Still, few die of malnutritian and, particuarily in Oriente province, the very poor peasants must be fed better and more reguarily than before the revolution" - "The revolution has in many ways improved everybody's health. The availability of medicines has been much more fairly distributed throughout the country. Preventitive medicine has been much emphasized and many clinics have been established in rural areas."
8. ^ PBS - Views on Cuba
9. ^ On Revolutionary Medicine by Che Guevara Monthly review
10. ^ a b Cuban Healthcare: An analysis of a Community-based model Essam Farag online
11. ^ ° English translation of the 1976 Constitution of Cuba Wikisource
1976 Constitution of Cuba 1976 (in Spanish)
12. ^ a b c d e An evaluation of four decades of Cuban healthcare. Filipe Eduardo Sixto.
13. ^ The effects of the U.S. embargo on medicines in Cuba have been studied in numerous reports.
• R Garfield and S Santana. Columbia University, School of Nursing, New York; "The impact of the economic crisis and the US embargo on health in Cuba" "this embargo has raised the cost of medical supplies and food Rationing, universal access to primary health services"
• American Association for World Health; Online. American Association for World Health Report. March 1997. Accessed 6 October 2006. Supplementary source : American Public Health Association website "After a year-long investigation, the American Association for World Health has determined that the U.S. embargo of Cuba has dramatically harmed the health and nutrition of large numbers of ordinary Cuban citizens."
• Felipe Eduardo Sixto; An evaluation of Four decades of Cuban Healthcare.
"The lack of supplies accompanied by a deterioration of basic infrastructure (potable water and sanitation) resulted in a setback of many of the previous accomplishments. The strengthening of the U.S. embargo contributed to these problems."
• Pan American Health organization; Health Situation Analysis and Trends Summary [1] "The two determining factors underlying the crisis are well known. One is the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the socialist bloc, and the other is the economic embargo the Government of the United States."
• Harvard Public Health; Review/Summer 2002 : The Cuban Paradox "Because its access to traditional sources of financing is seriously hindered by the sanctions, which until recently included all food and medicine, Cuba has received little foreign and humanitarian aid to maintain the vitality of its national programs"
• The Lancet medical journal; Role of USA in shortage of food and medicine. "The resultant lack of food and medicines to Cuba contributed to the worst epidemic of neurological disease this century."
14. ^ a b [http://www.who.int/countries/cub/en WHO 2005, retrieved July 20, 2007
15. ^ To Die in Cuba: Suicide and Society. By Louis A. Pérez, Jr. access online
16. ^ Study: Suicide epidemic exists under Castro Miami Herald June 18, 1998
17. ^ a b Cuba Demographic indicators Pan American Health Organization
18. ^ Jerry M. Spiegel and Annalee Yassi "Lessons from the margins of globalization: appreciating the Cuban health paradox" in Journal of Public Health Policy, Volume 25, Number 1, 2004, pp. 85-110(26)online. "Patients pay for drugs, hearing, dental,and orthopedic prostheses, wheelchairs, crutches, and similar items but prices are low and subsidized by the state; and in the case of low-income patients, these items are offered free of charge"
19. ^ Approaches to the management of HIV/Aids in Cuba World Health Organization
20. ^ High HIV-1 genetic diversity in Cuba AIDS 2002 Official Journal of the International AIDS society.
21. ^ Caribbean Statistics summary
22. ^ Cuba’s epidemic remains by far the smallest in the Caribbean.
23. ^ a b c The impact of the economic crisis and the US embargo on health in Cuba. American journal of public health. 1997 January. Accessed 6 October 2006.
24. ^ The Impact Of The US Embargo On The Health And Nutrition In Cuba. Online. American Association for World Health Report. March 1997. Accessed 6 October 2006. Supplementary source : American Public Health Association website
25. ^ Role of the USA in shortage of medicines in Cuba. Anthony F. Kirkpatrick. The Lancet. 2004.Accessed 6 October 2006.
26. ^ BMA must voice its opposition to Cuban embargo. British medical journal. 1998. Accessed 6 October 2006.
27. ^ Myths and Facts about the US embargo on medicines and supplies. Oxfam America and the Washington Office on Latin America.
28. ^ http://globalization.about.com/od/bigstories/a/cubaembargo.htm
29. ^ http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/09/24/eveningnews/main2036729.shtml
30. ^ Report of the Secretary-General. 2006. "Necessity of ending the economic, commercial and financial embargo imposed by the United States of America against Cuba" (A/60/150) online
31. ^ Medical know-how boosts Cuba's wealth. BBC online.
32. ^ Commitment to health: resources, access and services United Nations Human Development report
33. ^ Economic crisis and access to care: Cuba's health care system since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Nayeri K, Lopez-Pardo CM. p.13 online
34. ^ Miami Herald. August 04, 2006.
35. ^ [http://www.finlay-online.com/finlayinstitute/healthintransition.htm Cuba's Health in Transition and the Central and Eastern European]. Countries Experience. Antonio Maria de Gordon.
36. ^ Cuban Embassy opens in Islamabad Islamic News Agency
37. ^ Medical know-how boosts Cuba's wealth BBC News
38. ^ Castro has stamped his mark on Africa's history Washington Post August 10, 2006
39. ^ 15,000 sick Ukrainian kids get treatment in Cuba San Francisco Chronicle
40. ^ Hugo's Health Revolution Cuban Doctors in Venezuela. Yale Journal of public health
41. ^ a b Venezuela medics march over jobs BBC online.
42. ^ Appointment of Cuban doctors to managerial positions must be explained, says FMV El Universal.
43. ^ Medical know-how boosts Cuba's wealth BBC Online
44. ^ Panama welcomes Cuba eye surgery BBC News
45. ^ http://www.granma.cu/espanol/2006/junio/mier21/milagro.html - Granma - in Spanish
46. ^ Havana's Operation Miracle helps eye patients see light News Scotsman.com
47. ^ [2]
48. ^ Commentary: A Novel Tourism Concept Caribbean Net News
49. ^ Cuba sells its medical expertise BBC News
50. ^ a b c Cuba : A model for alternative healthcare National Foundation for Alternative medicine
51. ^ Alternative Health Care Flourishes in the Caribbean Barbara Jamison
52. ^ a b Keeping Cuba healthy BBC online. 1 August 2006
53. ^ Cubans Show Little Satisfaction with Opportunities and Individual Freedom World Public Opinion. 10 January 2007
54. ^ http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/castro/sfeature/sf_views_uriarte.html "The Right Priorities: Health, Education, and Literacy. Views on Cuba.
55. ^ Student British Medical Journal
56. ^ Learn from Cuba, Says World Bank World History Archives. May 2001
57. ^ ‘Sicko,’ Castro and the ‘120 Years Club’ The New York Times. May 27, 2007
58. ^ Cuban Healthcare: First World Results on a Third World Budget The Guardian, London. Sept. 12, 2007
59. ^ CUBAN HEALTH CARE SYSTEMS AND ITS IMPLICATIONS FOR THE NHS PLAN. Select Committee on Health.
60. ^ Cuban Medicine Today by Dr Hilda Molina Center for a free Cuba - link fails 16.9.06
61. ^ El cuento de la Salud en Cuba, Publicado el 06.03.2005 11:32 Por Carlos Wotzkow, María Elena Morejón y Equipo Informativo de Gentiuno.com
62. ^ Healthy in Cuba, Sick in America? John Stossel Takes on Michael Moore, Examines Government-Run Health Care By MELISSA SCOTT, Sept. 7, 2007.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Cuba"

Categories: All articles with unsourced statements | Articles with unsourced statements since February 2007 | Articles to be expanded since January 2007 | All articles to be expanded | Healthcare in Cuba | Cuban society
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quote:

Originally posted by BrentBoz-Hell:
quote: "The answer to our insurance problems is to let market forces correct insurance company abuses."

Before Medicare, one half of the senior population of the U.S. had no health insurance.

Contending that the market can or will address such deficiencies is to deny historical fact.

To deny this fact is to take the Ron Paul position.

The "free market" as spoon-fed to the American people as the panacea for all of our national and economic problems is a hoax.

Retired Monk
"Ideology is a disease"

I'm going out tomorrow and purchasing the DVD, Sicko!

As far as I am concerned, if the right wing are scared of him, I can't wait to hear his message!

What a good idea. I think I'm going to subject myself to useless propaganda too. That'll help me out.

quote:

The "free market" as spoon-fed to the American people as the panacea for all of our national and economic problems is a hoax.

Yea, the foundation of our country is built on the founders messing around with markets and trying to spend public money on special interests. What a good idea for our future.

quote:

Originally posted by Sawdust:

quote:

The "free market" as spoon-fed to the American people as the panacea for all of our national and economic problems is a hoax.

Yea, the foundation of our country is built on the founders messing around with markets and trying to spend public money on special interests. What a good idea for our future.

Sawdust,

whenever you use the term "propaganda" and "conspiracy theory" and terms related to the sanity of your correspondents, I think: link

Kate, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

I like your new signature, sounds familiar somehow.

And, when it looks like a cherry picker and bleats like a cherry picker, it's a cherry picker.

Yeah, I like my signature too, for a time. I'll get back to Meister Eckhart eventually, but a lighter load right now makes sense for my own life.

quote:

Originally posted by Sawdust:
What a good idea. I think I'm going to subject myself to useless propaganda too. That'll help me out.

Naw. Don't bother. You're beyond help.

[Actually, that describes most of us, doesn't it? ]

quote:

Originally posted by --Kate:

quote:

Originally posted by Sawdust:

quote:

The "free market" as spoon-fed to the American people as the panacea for all of our national and economic problems is a hoax.

Yea, the foundation of our country is built on the founders messing around with markets and trying to spend public money on special interests. What a good idea for our future.

Sawdust,

whenever you use the term "propaganda" and "conspiracy theory" and terms related to the sanity of your correspondents, I think: link

Well if Saw says it is useless propoganda, than well, what can I say, the master has spoken....

quote:

Well if Saw says it is useless propoganda, than well, what can I say, the master has spoken....

I knew if you stuck around long enough that we would finally agree on something.

quote:

Originally posted by Sawdust:

quote:

Well if Saw says it is useless propoganda, than well, what can I say, the master has spoken....

I knew if you stuck around long enough that we would finally agree on something.

Didn't say master of _what_, however.

Captain,

I thought that went without saying

The awful truth about Michael Moore is that when he showers, the soap does a through cleaning of his backside (a self confession in one of his books).

Make me sort of glad I used a different bar of soap.

Other than that, he seems a fairly smart man and decent guy.

quote:

The awful truth about Michael Moore is that when he showers, the soap does a through cleaning of his backside (a self confession in one of his books).

Make me sort of glad I used a different bar of soap.

That part of Mike is cleaner than his brain.