I totally agree, that way we can control illegal employment. Same time H-1 visa employees get exploited way too much, most of them are overly qualified to do their jobs. They should get paid properly.
Posts: 12 | Location: Santa Barbara,ca | Registered: 15 December 2007
With no set minimum, market forces will just drive wages down and down, leaving more and more working people having to rely on welfare or charity just to survive. Not a nice situation. If the minimum wage was a living wage, then far fewer tax dollars would need to be spent on welfare.
Sue N.
Posts: 4624 | Location: UK | Registered: 16 November 2004
The living wage varies from place to place, because of the differences in cost of living.
The problem with agreeing to work for less than a living wage, is that the employer will then expect others to work for the same low rate, and you and they end up going in debt or going hungry. But you may feel you have no choice.
In my view, any business that cannot afford to pay all its workers a living wage is bankrupt. It should wind itself up. This will free resources for somebody with another more profitable business.
And any business that can afford to pay all its workers a living wage, but choses not to, is ethically challenged, and is not fit to hire staff.
Sue N.
Posts: 4624 | Location: UK | Registered: 16 November 2004
Let me rephrase my question. Should it be illegal to a person to willingly work for less than the legal minimum wage? If so, how do you plan on enforcing the law?
Posts: 66 | Location: New Jersey | Registered: 31 August 2007
Originally posted by Sue N: The living wage varies from place to place, because of the differences in cost of living.
The problem with agreeing to work for less than a living wage, is that the employer will then expect others to work for the same low rate, and you and they end up going in debt or going hungry. But you may feel you have no choice.
In my view, any business that cannot afford to pay all its workers a living wage is bankrupt. It should wind itself up. This will free resources for somebody with another more profitable business.
And any business that can afford to pay all its workers a living wage, but choses not to, is ethically challenged, and is not fit to hire staff.
But what is a living wage?
By what standards does one determine "living"?
If you were the authority to determine how much money I would make at minimum, what dollar amount would it be?
I think it is immpossible to determine as everyones idea of "living" is different. My mother lives on very little money. Owes nothing. She has very few material needs or wants, has invested well with what she has, and lives frugally. Always has. She doesn't want any more. Her attitude is that if she wants more, she'll earn more, but is content to live within her means. Less than $20K/year. (She will not accept any handouts from her kids) She gave away her car to a family in need a couple years ago. Public transpo from now on.
My brother in law earns over $100,000/year as a programmer, no family to support, has no assets, rents an apt, drives a cheap Honda, has not a nickle saved or invested, credit cards maxed, has filed for bankruptcy twice, yet feels the system is broken because he is broke. He feels he deserves more money. (Here's the good part) He strongly feels it is directly because of GW Bush that he cannot afford to pay his bills.
My own version of "living wage" would be far different than yours. I require more than some and less than others. I want more than some, therefor it is my responsibility to sell my efforts or abilities to the person willing to pay my version of a living wage. If I can't meet my needs, it is entirely my fault. It is my life after all.
The term "Living wage" is a emotion baiting class warfare game in my opinion. It fuels the haves and have nots debates for politicians and cures none of the ills of the have nots. Probably makes them worse.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user."
Theodore Roosevelt, 1913
Posts: 2404 | Location: Redmond WA | Registered: 04 September 2006
Should it be illegal to a person to willingly work for less than the legal minimum wage?
No, since they are likely to be in a situation where they have no choice; they are doing it under coercion. And those who do have a choice, who have money but are working for other reasons, are undercutting those who need the money.
Sue N.
Posts: 4624 | Location: UK | Registered: 16 November 2004
If I can't meet my needs, it is entirely my fault.
If that were so, then I might agree with others of your views. But we are all up against the economic system, which is much bigger and stronger than we are, and some of us start of with more advantages than others. People can work hard and try to steer a good course through life, only to have circumstances beyond their control negate all their best efforts.
Sue N.
Posts: 4624 | Location: UK | Registered: 16 November 2004
That's the saddest bit of nonsense I've ever read. Up against an economic system indeed.
quote:
Do you love it, do you hate it, there it is, the way you made it.
Zappa
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
Posts: 8264 | Location: Fl | Registered: 05 July 2001
If that were so, then I might agree with others of your views. But we are all up against the economic system, which is much bigger and stronger than we are, and some of us start of with more advantages than others. People can work hard and try to steer a good course through life, only to have circumstances beyond their control negate all their best efforts.
The economic system is not some evil monster lurking in the shadows. You make it out to be an entity, which it isn't. Ever hear the term "sh** happens"? The answer to that circunstance beyond our control is to pick yourself back up and try again. Enabling people with excuses to keep failing or worse yet, to tell them they have no chance and create fictional monsters, is building worthlessness and weakness. We as a society need less "poor baby" and more "get off your ass!"
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user."
Theodore Roosevelt, 1913
Posts: 2404 | Location: Redmond WA | Registered: 04 September 2006
I think we need less "poor baby", less "I've got mine", and more equality of reward for effort expended.
I'd agree with that. The truth about equality of reward for efforts expended is that it is driven by value, not government mandate of what is supposedly fair.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Slabmaster,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user."
Theodore Roosevelt, 1913
Posts: 2404 | Location: Redmond WA | Registered: 04 September 2006
If I have to define all the words in my sentences, then this conversation could take forever.
That's exactly the point. Who is going to decide what the definitions are for a "living wage"? Certainly a living wage is a great thing for everyone to work for, and is a great goal for a society to achieve, for as many citizens as possible. But you can't legislate that.
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
Posts: 8264 | Location: Fl | Registered: 05 July 2001
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