Teens are suffering from cancers considered only for old people. Teen bodies are not made for sex and do not have the same immune system as adults of 25 and older.

*Every third girl has the human papilloma virus (HPV). HPV causes 99.7% of cervical cancer cases that kills over 5000 women each year.

* One out of ten has chlamydia.

* Almost half of all students in grades nine through twelve have had sex.

* Half of all girls are likely to be infected with an STD during their first sexual experience.

* Nearly one in four sexually active teens have an STD.

* Teens will contract nearly one in four of the 15 million new cases of STDs this year.

* Teens make up 10% of the population, but they contract up to 25% of all STDs.

* Herpes (specifically herpes simplex type 2 or "genital herpes") has skyrocketed 500% among white teenagers in the last 20 years. One in five kids have herpes. Herpes has no cure.

* One in five children above age twelve tests positive for herpes type 2.

* One in ten teenage girls has Chlamydia; half of all new Chlamydia cases each year are diagnosed in girls 15 to 19 years old.
link
___________________________________
Think of the health care costs; therefore, this makes it a major political issue. Why is it silenced by the very health organizations we pay to keep Americans informed of threats to life? It's a red hot political football and it's time we push the media to report what teens are struggling with and how it effects the next generation.

I'm surprised George Bush allows that to happen. Maybe he isn't such a great conservative president after all.

Makes me wish for the age of innocence, back what Bill Clinton was getting blowjobs from interns.

Looks like the conservative agenda to keep sex education out of the school systems is succeeding.

The pharmaceutical industry should be well pleased. Good profit potential here treating STD's among teens.

Ideologies over common sense win every time.

Retired Monk
"Ideology is a disease"

quote:

Good profit potential here treating STD's among teens

Yeah, and the great thing is, they profit regardless of how much disease they prevent.

quote:

Originally posted by Gnarlodious:
I'm surprised George Bush allows that to happen. Maybe he isn't such a great conservative president after all.

Makes me wish for the age of innocence, back what Bill Clinton was getting blowjobs from interns.

That's HPV1 - oral cancer once only found by tobacco users and smokers - and no longer.

Go to the N C I site and any politically correct cancer site and the word they will not use is - prevention (except of course the lies about naturally flawed latex/condoms),

How to treat and collect huge amounts of money for research of various cancers is common and acceptable, but ways to prevent cancers are like a disease concept in itself and a much detested concept obviously.

What about the Corporatist ideology and perception of womanhood.

When one hears the phrase "Easy Breezy Beautiful Covergirl" they are not talking about intelligent self-fulfilled women who have other interests besides shopping for clothes and attracting guys.

To me "breezy" means having the IQ of Kelly Bundy.

That said, one is technically a "teen" until one is twenty. If any of you out there made it to twenty with your "virtue" in tact, please tell us.

No one wants our kids to start off too young. If our kids to lose their "virtue", we hope that it is with someone they trust, can depend on and talk to, and not someone they either feel uncomfortable talking to about the important things or who was out to exploit them.

That said, GG where do you get your figures from?

Vaudree

quote:

No one wants our kids to start off too young.

Not so in the real world. Money making organizations want our kids sexually active and engaged, the sooner the better.

It only takes one experience to get an STD, It will be a suffering and affliction for the rest of their life. It will be an experience that can cause cancer, infertility and many many heart breaks of inability to being a suitable mate for marriage. Also children of one afflicted with an STD are endangered.

quote:

we hope that it is with someone they trust, can depend on and talk to, and not someone they either feel uncomfortable talking to about the important things or who was out to exploit them.

Youth are not prepared for sex, psychologically and physically. You can be certain those that propose sex for youth are out to exploit them, use them for profit and sexual gratification.

An STD is not always visible. A carrier might not even be aware they are spreading cancer and disease.

I think you may be onto something GG.

quote:

Money making organizations want our kids sexually active and engaged, the sooner the better.

Five Corporate Media giants: Newscorp, Disney, Viacom, Vivendi and AOL Time Warner control 90% of the media. This explains why hip-hop and rap music is so horrible, because it was all sponsored by corporations as a marketing gimmick. Gangsterism, sexuality and pornography are pushed on American youth as if rebellion is a good thing. But really it is mass submission to the corporate aristocracy of pure profit.

If anyone is to blame for the sexploitation of our children, it is the Reagan doctrine of "free market" corporatism.

Gnarlodious, who are the sex pushers in the country? Who are the ones so anxious to get youth engaged in sex - the sooner the better? Who profits from it? Yes, follow the money trail.

In their 2001 production, The Merchants of Cool, PBS exposed the role of corporate greed in popular culture. The corporate marketing of "Canned Rebellion" to American youth is explored. Some of the most outspoken "rebels" are walking billboards for corporations whose only concern is profit. These bands and "popular kids" are paid to push sleaze, corruption and products.

The show explains how the perfect marriage of corporations and culture creates an army of stupid followers. "Culture spies" infiltrate youth hangouts and evaluate kids for the next big trend. "Message smugglers" are paid to populate chatrooms and forums to push bands and brands. "Cool kids" are hired to do "guerilla marketing" at parties and nightclubs. MTV, also called "Empty-V", which is owned by Viacom, sets the trend of a continuous stream of violence and sexuality.

This is colonialism, the displacement of culture for profit, just like The East India Company did. And like colonialism, these corporations consume "cool". Once the "cool" has become commercialized, it ceases to be cool. It is an example of cannibalism, the consumption of your own culture, using children as expendable commodities.

The Big Five media Giants have created two exemplary youth characters. The adolescent male is the "Mook", and the adolescent female is the "Midriff". The "Mook" is offensive, horny and a doesn't care what anyone thinks of him. The "Midriff" is self-centered, greedy and preoccupied with what everyone thinks of her. These two characters have been proven to generate profit.

This "Culture of Stupidity" is a cash cow for these corporations. The stupider they expect consumers to be, the more pop merchandise they will sell. Smart people are nerds, geeks and dorks. They have been denigrated by pop culture for at least since the MTV heyday. That coincides with the Reagan-era war against education. I wonder if it is a coincidence?

Since the 2001 production, PBS has become a Republican mouthpiece, so such an exposee would never be made today.

Gnarlodious - I noticed how you cleverly and safely stayed away from the writers and publishers of sex education for youth.

GG:
If you knew the extent of Big Media's control of teen sexuality, I think you would disregard "sex education" as irrelevant. The real education is coming straight from corporate sponsors. What you are falling for is a distraction.

quote:

Money making organizations want our kids sexually active and engaged, the sooner the better.

Sure, I'll buy that. NAFTA and the SPP are working to give those "money making organizations" more power to do so.

Also, American politicians need to raise huge amounts of money to run for office - much of it coming from the very "money making organizations" in question. If the United States was to ban Union and Corporate Donations and limit personal donations to $5,000, would they not be less beholden to "money making organizations"?

quote:

It only takes one experience to get an STD, It will be a suffering and affliction for the rest of their life.

It is true that one is playing Russian Roulette every time one partakes in such activity with a person whose history and present actions have not been fully disclosed. However, it is not true that all STDs are incurable.

Clap for the Wolfman
He gonna rate your record high
Clap for the Wolfman
You gonna dig him til the day you die

quote:

Youth are not prepared for sex, psychologically and physically. You can be certain those that propose sex for youth are out to exploit them, use them for profit and sexual gratification.

I think that the exploiters not only exploit youths - there are stories of children and even babies being exploited in such away. And, as far as I know, no one other than the exploiters themselves are advocating that.

Historically, the Filles du Roi were shipped off to New France as wives for the men there. Often the courtships lasted hours before the marriage took place. Physically ready for their marriages, sure, though not all of them were prepared for the life that awaited them. And not all of their husbands were kind.

Historically, people used to get married while still in their teens, though it is probably even a worse idea to do that now than to do it then.

quote:

It will be an experience that can cause cancer, infertility and many many heart breaks of inability to being a suitable mate for marriage.

The state of one's "virtue" doesn't make one a good spouse or a bad spouse. I would like to think that most couples married for more than just sex - that they had shared interests and liked being together even when fully clothed.

Though, if you honestly feel that one should not have sex before marriage, then you should be fully in support of gay marriage. I presume that you are.

quote:

If anyone is to blame for the sexploitation of our children, it is the Reagan doctrine of "free market" corporatism.

True enough. What is your opinion on those Baby Bratz dolls? They look like they are wearing detatctible penises hung by a string around their necks.

“I’m infected with what?” Sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) are spreading like wildfire. Doctors are calling it an epidemic.

One in every four teenagers will be infected with an STD before they graduate from high school.

Each day 33,000 Americans become infected with an STD.

22,000 of these new STD infections are contracted by 15 to 25-year-olds each day.

In l980, four million people were reported to have been infected with an STD.

By 1990 that number tripled with 12 million people reported to have a new STD infection that year.

Today, one in every five Americans between ages 15 and 55 is infected with at least one sexually transmitted disease.

The Centers for Disease Control reports there are now more than 50 known STDs ****. Some STDs can make you sterile. Some are incurable.

People with STDs often look healthy. Don’t be deceived. They can give you diseases that will make you miserable. Some of the diseases are itchy, burning, painful and even deadly. Most teenagers have been led to believe that a condom will protect them from STDs. The truth is much different. Having sex with condoms is like playing with fire. It doesn’t make it safe. Many people using condoms still get STDs. It’s an epidemic that’s infected more than 50 million Americans. Are you willing to risk a lifetime of good health for a few moments of pleasure?

Sources for STD statistics: The Alan Guttmacher Institute, New York, and the Centers for Disease Control, Atlanta

_______________________
in the '60s there was only two

STDs.
Actual STD sores on skin.

The _acceptable_ age at which an individual becomes sexually active is a function of the encompassing society. Physiologically, the human body is ready for sex with the onset of puberty; roughly 12-13. During different eras, it was not uncommon for 12-year-old girls to be wed and their marriage consummated immediately. Overall, most societies hold that permissible initiation to sex _should_ wait until the age of majority, when the child becomes classified as an adult. That too has varied over the years. It seems to me that equating adulthood as being 18 is coincidental to our public education system which kept young people in school until they were 18. Graduate from high school and graduate into adulthood at the same time.

The problem is that while pre-public school as the norm would have already had most children out in the work force at an early age, earning a wage, and essentially _forced_ to grow up quicker, now they are being insulated from the Real World. By jamming a whole LOT of post-puberty kids into close proximity with similar kids, all of them wallowing in a sea of raging hormones -- with little in the way of conditions that forces them to become mature enough to deal with the situation.

And what is it that the adults are giving these kids as a way to deal with those pent up sensations? Abstinence-only Sex Ed. And when the Surgeon General had the temerity to suggest it would be wise to freely dispense condoms, he got sacked.

So, we're not properly educating them about what the hell is happening to their bodies, and we're not taking measures to help them protect themselves during the fumbling learning process. Then to top it off, we keep dangling the phrase, "You should wait until you're an adult," in front of them.

What is it that nearly all young people want more than anything else? To be viewed as an adult instead of "just a kid". If being sexually active is meant for adults, than being sexually active will prove that I'm already there, right? Same holds true for smoking cigarettes; many start because "it makes me look older". Just telling them, "No it doesn't!" does not deter them from doing things that proves to _themselves_ that they have become more adult, that they seem "much more mature than their peers".

We have an epidemic of teenage STD's? What a surprise. Maybe we should focus our energies on dealing with the causes instead of just the symptoms. But it ain't gonna happen as long as The Powers That Be keep thinking that Abstinence-only initiatives are the best path to follow. Might as well close your eyes, cross your fingers, and wish with all your might.

quote:

wallowing in a sea of raging hormones

Excellent point, Cap'n. Our food is saturated with the chemical precursors to sex hormones. Especially the kind of fast food targeted at teenagers.

Cholesterol, steroids and growth hormones are considered a necessary part of factory farming, and yet they are suspected to contribute to early maturing, mental illness and cancer.

CaptainPatch

quote:

But it ain't gonna happen as long as The Powers That Be keep thinking that Abstinence-only initiatives are the best path to follow.

Natural energies of the body are our allies and not our foe. Not mastering the use of natural energies is giving us an "EPiDEMiC" that will kill more than any war by nations.

Youth/teens want and need to hear about wholesome character formation for their safety and benefit as well as for the benefit of family, society, and nation. You make it sound as if natural energies are just for the use of sex. Not SO!

It will not cause any body harm to delay gratification and it can be taught. It will not cause any body harm to master the natural energies of the body. It never has and it never will. In fact it gives freedom. Now who doen't want 'FREEDOM'.

To be slaves to sexual passions is to be distracted from individual incredible human potential. It robs youth of childhood; it distracts from preparation for human vocation and increases selections of other risky escapades, and importantly it opens the door to adult predators. Break down the natural barriers and youth are prime targets. Bodies are not "objects," not for dangerous sexual exploitations. We're talking about the consequences of it and we fail youth by not living and teaching what is suitable to their nature.

Your above post is taken word for word from another source.

One reason why people tend not to be virgins when they marry is because of the tendency to wait longer before marrying. If the wait is three years, one can wait three years, but if the wait is 15-16 years - that is twice as long as one has been alive.

If a person is comfortable in their own skin, they can open lines of communications with their potential sexual mate. Sometimes, when communication has been opened, one comes up with reasons why one would rather not have any kind of relationship with the other person. If one is not comfortable in their own skin, they are more apt to get into relationships that are not good for them. Communication is very important for a healthy relationship (as well as for weeding out unhealthy ones).

Being a virgin at the time of marriage does not guarantee a happy marriage. The 14 year old wife of Allen Glade Steed (who cannot be named by law) waited until marriage - though it was a marriage she never wanted. After Warren Jeffs coerced the woman into marrying her cousin, her cousin (Allen Glade Steed) coerced her into fulfilling her wifely duties:

quote:

During the trial, the woman, now 21, testified that at her wedding in 2001, she cried when pressed by Jeffs to say "I do" and had to be coaxed to kiss her new husband.

She said the first month of marriage the couple didn't have sex. But then her husband told her it was "time for you to be a wife and do your duty."

Polygamist leader Jeffs found guilty
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/09/25/jeffs-verdict.html

Marriage, itself, is no guarantee of safety from exploitation:

quote:

Ex-husband charged with rape after Jeffs guilty verdict

Prosecutors filed a rape charge Wednesday against the ex-husband whose marriage was at the centre of polygamous sect leader Warren's Jeff's trial.

The charge came a day after Jeffs was convicted of rape by accomplice.

Allen Glade Steed was 19 and his bride — also his first cousin — was 14 when they were married in 2001. Steed is accused of having sex with the girl against her will after the arranged marriage.

(cont)
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/09/26/rape-utah.html

Have you seen the documentary "Bust Up in Bountiful" yet? It is about the friction between Winston Blackmore and Warren Jeffs. (have to actually click on the camera to get it):

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/bustupinbountiful/interview.html

Note that the lines of communication are not very open between Winston Blackmore and his many wives. For one, Winston Blackmore did not realise, until Hana Gartner told him, that two of his wives got legally married - to each other.

I first begin to notice something unusual when I realized I had no cousins.

My grandfather waited until he was 27 to marry my grandmother. He was very romantic and she was desperate to get out of the house. Unfortunately he waited 10 years to marry a prude. He was nonreligious and always wanted a wild sexual life. In the end got denied it thanks to the prevailing sex taboos. He spent the rest of his life regretting his adherence to strict morality. If only he had broken the rules, he would have a better chance of getting a better wife.

My grandmother was a small-minded mean-spirited religious woman. She refused to have sex with my grandfather, and forced them to sleep in separate rooms. She was a lifelong smoker and died of alcoholism. They only had two children, which was unusual for the times. You can see why this experience of my grandparents resulted in very liberal morals being taught to my uncle. His marriages were a total failure, and he lost all his children. That is why I had no cousins.

I loved my grandfather dearly, but the life he lived did not perpetuate himself. While he did want many children, his religious wife did not want to have sex. It seems his secular liberalism was doomed to extinction at the whim of his wife. I despised my grandmother, but she had a very similar religious daughter who had four children, one of which is me.

This family history is in perfect agreement with a larger social trend, which is that secular liberalism is a precursor to extinction. Virtually every society that has embraced secular liberalism has gone into a population decline within a few generations. The irony in this case is that my grandmother did not fulfill her religious duty, which was to have many children.

I am not trying to endorse a conservative religious position here, only that I have seen from the inside what happened. It seems that in the grand scheme of life, religion serves a purpose of reproduction. Take that away from people, and they simply stop reproducing. In that perspective, sex for mere pleasure does not guarantee continuation of the species.

What you're leaving out is "with birth control", otherwise we'd be kneedeep in bastards. (Wait! Isn't that the case already? It would explain a lot of the population in D.C. )

Seriously, I think that much of the slowing birthrate has to do with women finally being allowed to "fulfill themselves" and have a career instead of being a broodmare for some man. Instead of leaving home and getting married within a couple years, many women are getting and _using_ degrees in the professional world. Couple that with many couples deliberately postponing having children until they're "set", and having children for the first time is waiting until couples are in their late 20's/early thirties. That seriously cuts into the childbearing "window".

When the primary function of women is NOT to be mothers, childbearing noticeably slows down.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: CaptainPatch,

quote:

many couples deliberately postponing having children until they're "set", and having children for the first time is waiting until couples are in their late 20's/early thirties.

Actually, its mid thirties to mid fourties now.

Lower birthrates are the reason we don't have enough 20 year olds so Manitoba came up with a solution - approximately 11,000 immigrants moved to Manitoba in 2006. The biggest numbers from the Philippines, Germany, India, China and Korea.

If you have children in their mid to late teens, you should always keep track of which groups are immigrating to your area - it makes it easier to predict what your grandchildren will look like and who the new in-laws will be.

quote:

Originally posted by Gnarlodious:
I first begin to notice something unusual when I realized I had no cousins.

My grandfather waited until he was 27 to marry my grandmother. He was very romantic and she was desperate to get out of the house. Unfortunately he waited 10 years to marry a prude. He was nonreligious and always wanted a wild sexual life. In the end got denied it thanks to the prevailing sex taboos. He spent the rest of his life regretting his adherence to strict morality. If only he had broken the rules, he would have a better chance of getting a better wife.

My grandmother was a small-minded mean-spirited religious woman. She refused to have sex with my grandfather, and forced them to sleep in separate rooms. She was a lifelong smoker and died of alcoholism. They only had two children, which was unusual for the times. You can see why this experience of my grandparents resulted in very liberal morals being taught to my uncle. His marriages were a total failure, and he lost all his children. That is why I had no cousins.

I loved my grandfather dearly, but the life he lived did not perpetuate himself. While he did want many children, his religious wife did not want to have sex. It seems his secular liberalism was doomed to extinction at the whim of his wife. I despised my grandmother, but she had a very similar religious daughter who had four children, one of which is me.

This family history is in perfect agreement with a larger social trend, which is that secular liberalism is a precursor to extinction. Virtually every society that has embraced secular liberalism has gone into a population decline within a few generations. The irony in this case is that my grandmother did not fulfill her religious duty, which was to have many children.

I am not trying to endorse a conservative religious position here, only that I have seen from the inside what happened. It seems that in the grand scheme of life, religion serves a purpose of reproduction. Take that away from people, and they simply stop reproducing. In that perspective, sex for mere pleasure does not guarantee continuation of the species.

Very fascinating history, Gnarl. Apparently this has effected your political leanings too.

But for the most part don't you think you find larger families amongst the more religious? Look at a typical Catholic family.
I suppose your grandmother was a different extreme, because she didn't like to have sex, so she didn't.

I am curious how was the smoking and drinking justified with her faith?

Sorry, not trying to analyze your grandmother.

quote:

Originally posted by meljomur:
But for the most part don't you think you find larger families amongst the more religious?

Not necessarily. Ever hear of the Shakers?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakers

quote:

Originally posted by meljomur:
Very fascinating history, Gnarl. Apparently this has effected your political leanings too.

Not real sure what my "political leanings" are. Nothing is ever very simple.

quote:

But for the most part don't you think you find larger families amongst the more religious? Look at a typical Catholic family.

Very true. My grandmother's mother was born to a staunch German Catholic family of 16 children. There are thousands of them today in north Wisconsin, all staunch and dimwitted like their ancestors. Only my great-grandmother broke away, renounced Catholicism and fled Wisconsin. Away from that religious support system, her life went to hell. She married a drunken Norwegian and had ten children, most of whom died or were mentally retarded from malnutrition during the depression. Only two of her children went on to reproduce, and my grandmother was one of them.

The point of this glimpse into my family history is that religious systems invest resources in reproducing. If she had remained a Wisconsin Catholic the church would have ensured her children would grow up to have more children who would be dimwitted Catholics. Remember this was before social programs and welfare. In modern times, the government has assumed the role of church charities.

quote:

I suppose your grandmother was a different extreme, because she didn't like to have sex, so she didn't.

The result of the family's Catholic apostasy was that the two children who were mentally fit to reproduce turned out to be especially cynical. Compared to the thousands of distant cousins in Wisconsin, we are an extremely independent and distrustful branch of the family, but there are not many of us. That is probably why my grandmother did not like sex. It resulted in children and she grew up in poverty during the depression, watching her brothers and sisters die of starvation and disease. Catholicism would have prevented all that, so religion is a good thing sometimes.

quote:

I am curious how was the smoking and drinking justified with her faith?

The religion my grandmother adopted was Lutheran, which was quite a lot more liberal than the Catholic her mother renounced. Considering that her father drowned in a mud puddle falling off his horse drunk, it wasn't too hard for her to drink herself to death.

My mother was well on her way to a life of addiction too, but she joined an extremely strict religion which enabled her to quit. That is the Christian fundamentalist religion I grew up in. So there is another good thing about religions, they give people the strength to control their destructive urges. 30 years later she quit the church, became an alcoholic and murdered my brother-in-law. Now she is in prison and has outlived her mother, all thanks to the controlled environment of prison. Some people apparently need a structure around themselves, and if it is not religion then prison can accomplish the same purpose.

quote:

Sorry, not trying to analyze your grandmother.

Hehe. I didn't know any of this stuff until I did the genealogies. Studying 6 generations of your ancestors and their descendants can be real educational.

GG - that is the biggest load of self serving rubbish I have ever read. Actually I am still laughing. I wouldn't be surprised if you helped come up with slogan that every time you masturbate Jesus kills a kitten.

Teen sex is far from the most pressing issue faced in your country..... less puritanical as*holes preaching this type of poison is I believe a little more serious

quote:

Originally posted by Gnarlodious:
My grandmother's mother was born to a staunch German Catholic family of 16 children. There are thousands of them today in north Wisconsin, all staunch and dimwitted like their ancestors.

....

If she had remained a Wisconsin Catholic the church would have ensured her children would grow up to have more children who would be dimwitted Catholics.

Just out of curiosity, is it that
1) all Catholics are dimwitted?
2) all the Catholics in WI are dimwitted?
3) or just all the Catholics in WI that you are related to that are dimwitted?

Just sort of noticed that recurring theme in your post and thought it might need a bit of clarification.

Probably number 3. They are good solid people, all of them, and not troublemakers. Well endowed to thrive in the harsh northern Wisconsin winters.

But I doubt that you could get a very good discussion out of them on the subtleties of social issues. After hundreds of genealogies, I was surprised at how few went for higher education or did any traveling, or even accomplished anything noteworthy. They pretty much just continued the Catholic tradition from when they immigrated. Sort of admirable actually, the sharing, the community, the mutual support. If it wasn't for the God thing, religion would be a good idea.

quote:

Originally posted by Gnarlodious:

Probably number 3. They are good solid people, all of them, and not troublemakers. Well endowed to thrive in the harsh northern Wisconsin winters.

But I doubt that you could get a very good discussion out of them on the subtleties of social issues. After hundreds of genealogies, I was surprised at how few went for higher education or did any traveling, or even accomplished anything noteworthy. They pretty much just continued the Catholic tradition from when they immigrated. Sort of admirable actually, the sharing, the community, the mutual support. If it wasn't for the God thing, religion would be a good idea.

As you might have guessed, I enquired because of more than simple curiosity. My mother's family traces back to Colby, WI (Colby cheese, anyone?), and German Catholic immigrants. Grandpa was a Schultz, but I believe Grandma was a Russ --which was a HUGE clan. Their family reunions send invites out to literally thousands. So odds are that you and I may possibly be related. (Now ain't _that_ a scary thought?)

But getting back to the family size topic, there _is_ a historical influence beyond the Catholicism. Going back to the 30 Years' War (@1630), German families had an incredible attrition rate on kids. Not so much disease and malnutrition (though there was some of that), but rather families just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Kids don't fare well when home is a battlefield. Families would have, like, 6-18 kids just to get 3 _boys_ to survive to the age of 12. Being mainly agrarian, the families needed the strong backs a male would provide. But with the wars continually sweeping through Germany, men were sucked into the military at a prodigious rate. So families kept on cranking out babies to make sure there were always at least one or two teenaged boys to do the chores.

Eventually, many families emigrated to America (both Catholics and Lutherans). With them came the tradition of having large families. But America wasn't as deadly to children as Germany had been. So a lot more survived. It took several generations for the mindset to ease up on the cranking out babies mandate.

My grandparents had 8 kids. One died in infancy. Another died in her early 20's. Another died right around 30. Last I heard the other 5 are still alive and kicking. Of the 5 surviving kids, 4 each had 5 kids while the other (my mom) had 4 with one miscarriage. Of those 24 grandkids, when they started their own families, the most children any of them had was 4, but most have been around 2-3. A few (like me and my brother) never had any.

It takes awhile, but after a couple of generations where children do NOT frequently die, family size _does_ drop off to something reasonable.

[BTW, I was raised Catholic, but when I was about 15 I gave it up for Lent. Now I'm a militant agnostic -- which translates to, "I don't know and you don't know either!" ]

Interesting... I only have one Schultz in that database, which you can see here. The mother of the husband is the one I am connected to.

How you explain it does make sense. I understand the 30 Years' War was a religious war and that the Catholics were glad to participate by providing soldiers. The Lutherans, however, were not. Some of my other ancestors (Lutherans from Norway) actively protested conscription, and were constantly in trouble for it. There is more to this story that I won't mention here.

Upon immigrating, the Catholics typically had 16 children, while the Lutherans had 5 or 6. Today, my Catholic genealogy file lists 2000 people, while the Lutheran database lists 500. And the Lutheran records go back to about 1500 too. So the Catholics had a strategy of fighting a demographic war with bodies. Perhaps that is why their church was so generous with helping poor families raise their children. The Army of God needed soldiers.

Yes, studying the history of Europe can really be enlightening. Unfortunately it is not standard curriculum for today's students.

(Ignoring the fact that so far, I have seen absolutely no credible proof to the causal relationship between teen sex and dying children, and barely any demonstration of a correlation - )

... it's not teen sex that kills anything. It's our society's fear of (teen) sex that does. It's this fear, as displayed in the opening post of this thread, that keeps sex behind closed doors, away from an honest discussion of sex and its risks, and away from teen education on birth control and sexually transmitted diseases.

(HERE's a sample. A 14 year old girl with gonorrhea. Who's to blame? That's right, her messed up family, and their ideas of right and wrong. There's the real problem foreya.)

It's the uncontrollable fear of our own sexuality, combined with the profound hatred of our own bodies, causing us to conflate sex and violence, that has been cultivated for generations that does the damage.

Doesn't explain the Catholics in Quebec which have been historically against conscription (even during WWII) and have the greatest proportion of the population against the war in Afghanistan.

In fact, the Bloc (a Quebec only Federal party) threatens to vote against the Throne Speech unless the Conservatives agree to all five of their conditions - here is one on the conditions:

quote:

Afghanistan : retrait en 2009

Stephen Harper nous envoie des signaux confus sur l’Afghanistan. Il refuse de s’engager à quitter Kandahar en 2009 et il refuse de nous dire s’il veut que les troupes y restent après 2009. C’est de la lachete politique et de l’hypocrisie. Le premier ministre devra dans le discours du Trône se prononcer clairement et écrire noir sur blanc que le Canada va se retirer en 2009. C’est non negociable, a lance Gilles Duceppe.

http://www.blocquebecois.org/fr/manchette_detail.asp?id=9925822

Afghanistan: withdrawal in 2009

"Stephen Harper sends signals to us confused on Afghanistan. It refuses to be committed leaving Kandahar in 2009 and it refuses to say to us if it wants that the troops remain there after 2009. It is political cowardice and hypocrisy. The Prime Minister will have in the speech from the throne to decide clearly and write black on white which Canada will withdraw in 2009. It is nonnegotiable", launched Gilles Duceppe.

(computer generated gloss)

I am also a product of a mixed marriage Catholic and United Church.

The Catholics in Quebec have changed - proportionally more people "live in sin" in Quebec than any where else in the world. And they are no longer winning the battle of the cradle.

Any ancestors from Canada? http://web2.gov.mb.ca/cca/vital/Query.php

quote:

Originally posted by Randal Graves:
It's our society's fear of (teen) sex that does.

I'm more inclined to think it's simple embarassment. Adults may be able to have frank discussions about sex between themselves, but they have a helluva time explaining sex to children -- and they don't trust anyone else to explain it "right" to their children either. They avoid the conversation and hope that it will miraculously take care of itself. Why? Because they _want_ to tell the children sex is supposed to be strictly for making babies, but they **know** that for themselves, sex is about entertainment and children is just a side-effect of that. And they 're afraid that if they tell children what they _want_ to say, the kids may see through the hypocrisy and start asking difficult questions. But if you let the kids learn **too much** about sex, then there's 2 terrible things that may occur:
1) "If you teach them about cars, they'll want to drive one."
2) They might demonstrate that they now know _more_ about the subject than their parents. And parents certainly don't want to have their kids teaching them about what is _really_ going on.

Just Sex Ed gets boiled down to "Just say 'No!' until you're an adult and no longer my responsibility."

quote:

They might demonstrate that they now know _more_ about the subject than their parents. And parents certainly don't want to have their kids teaching them about what is _really_ going on.

I don't mind knowing what is going on, as long as my son's knowledge comes from listening to the gossip.

There is nothing wrong with using family members as examples. Especially if brother born 1964 has daughter born 2003 because, after nine years, the pill slipped up (both thought that the other did not want kids. Both were wrong). And then telling him that if it happens to him I'll make sure he changes the diapers.

Condom and the Pill reduce risks but, must concede, do not get rid of the risk altogether. Similarly, driving slower when the road is slippery reduces the risk of an accident but does not prevent one altogether.

If you must drive during slippery weather, are you going to figure that you might as well drive at regular speed because driving slower isn't 100% effective?


From Manitoba
Births (more than 100 years ago)
Number of Schultz - 59
Number of Russ - 0

Marriages (more than 80 years ago)
Number of Schultz - 114
Number of Russ - 1
(ILONA RUSS marries JOHN MARTIN)

Deaths (more than 70 years ago)
Number of Schultz - 107
Number of Russ - 0

quote:

Slim_ chance of relation on my Dad's side when some of his predecessors step across the border to hide out for a generation, then popped back to N WI circa 1880.

You can delete this one too then. You and me both know that the easiest way for a family to die out was to only give birth to daughters.

I only showed you Manitoba. If your family were Loyalists who came to Canada during the American Revolution but who returned to the US over 100 years later, you could have relatives all over Canada. I would check out Ontario first, though.

GG did say that sex is meant only for procreation, though. Geneology doesn't deal with other potential usages of sex, does it?

quote:

Originally posted by Vaudree:
No Cogents in the Manitoba data base.

That name is an invented name. My original name was extremely Jewish, from my father. If you are clever with the genealogy websites you can figure it all out.

quote:

You and me both know that the easiest way for a family to die out was to only give birth to daughters.

Not true. You are only talking about names. And one thing you learn with genealogy is that names do not confer anything. In the historical context, names are irrelevant.

Watching the generations roll by is very informative. You might think it is easier to trace families from males because they carry the name. However, there are adulteries, fornications and rapes that rarely get recorded in church documents. In most cases a known male was substituted as the legitimate father. The exeption was strict Catholic record keeping. If you were born a bastard then your life was shot to shit. Males also are a lot more mobile, so even if a name is known they are a lot harder to trace. This is especially true in Scandinavian countries where last names were the same as the farm you lived on. When the family moved, suddenly all their names changed. For Jews, genealogy is especially hopeless, since the Nazis destroyed everything the Jews ever did.

Female oriented genealogy is simpler than you might think, because females are less mobile. They tend to stay in one place for more generations. In addition, genealogy and history is a female activity. Females are more human oriented and gossip a lot about the extended family, marriages and even sexual escapades. In fact, females have such an interest in illicit sex that I believe it is an extension of the historian role they played in tribalistic times. Women are more accepting of extramarital sex, while males get neurotic over it. You will never meet an old man who has as much information about the entire family as an old woman.

Genealogists normally use the wife's maiden name in databases. If you ever read a database where they use the husband's name you know you are dealing with a religious nut. Many old church records disregard the maiden name entirely, so researching Catholic genealogies can be frustrating. Your best bet is obituaries, where they recite all families regardless of male inheritance. Immigration and census reports are good too, since they were not religious in nature. Jewish genealogy is very strong in supplying maiden names, because you inherit your Jewishness through your mother.

I could write an entire book about all the ins and outs of genealogy research, but I won't. It's pretty interesting, and really gives you a perspective on human nature.

GG - you need to learn to distinguish between facts, (try reading actual research abstracts and/or studies), and socio-viral information meant to persuade consumers into becoming uninformed patients.

The very thing you are posting is nothing more than a cleverly conceived advertisement meant to play on socio-cultural fears to promote the new gardasil hpv vaccine.

Sexually Transmitted Diseases (or STDs) are at unprecedented and epidemic proportions. Thirty years of the sexual revolution is paying an ugly dividend.

While a few STDs can be transmitted apart from sex acts, all are transmissible by the exchange of bodily fluids during intimate sexual contact. I want to discuss the severity of the problem as well as what must be done if we are to save a majority of the next generation from the shame, infertility, and sometimes death, that may result from STDs.

..

Today, there are approximately 25 STDs. A few can be fatal. Many women are living in fear of what their future may hold as a result of STD infection. It is estimated that 1 in 5 Americans between the ages of 15 and 55 are currently infected with one or more STDs, and 12 million Americans are newly infected each year. That's nearly 5% of the entire population of the U.S. Of these new infections, 63% are in people less than 25 years old.

This epidemic is a recent phenomenon. . .
________________________________
The current rate of Americans with an STD is now 1 in 4, over 30 strains of STDs (there were only 2 in the 60's), and over 15 million newly infected American each year.

SILENCE is killing our youth and the next generation.

It's tough, but let's face it:

Teenagers are also more susceptible to human papilloma virus, HPV. Rates of HPV infection in teenagers can be as high as 40%, whereas in the adult population, the rate is less than 15%. Teenagers are also more likely than adults to develop precancerous growths as a result of HPV infection, and they are more likely to develop pelvic inflammatory disease. .....


Condoms cannot be trusted - yet we pass them out freely in our outrageous indoctrinated made up of change agents government schools.

So who hates our youth!!??

Some people believe that if teens can be taught how to use contraception and condoms effectively, that rates of pregnancy and STD infection will be reduced dramatically. But the statistics and common sense tell us otherwise. At Rutgers University, the rates of infection of students with STD varied little with the form of contraception used. For example, 35 to 44% of the sexually active students were infected with one or more STDs whether they used no contraceptive, oral contraceptive, the diaphragm, or condoms. It is significant to note that condoms, the hero of the "safe sex" message, provided virtually no protection from STDs.

It is significant to note that condoms, the hero of the "safe sex" message, provided virtually no protection from STDs.

Bonnie

quote:

The very thing you are posting is nothing more than a cleverly conceived advertisement meant to play on socio-cultural fears to promote the new gardasil hpv new STvaccine.

You need to prove your statement. I'm proving mine. (Many doctors, btw are speaking out against the vaccine).


Dr. Meg Meeker is an expert on Sexually Transmitted Diseases. It's shocking and a major tragedy what she is discovering about youth. STDs will cause more Americans to die than any world wars, IMO.

And it is SILENT:

quote:

The Journal of the American Medical Association reported in a February 2002 editorial that the number of people with asymptomatic STDs (diseases with no outward symptoms like lesions or warts) probably exceeds those whose diseases are diagnosed. This means that the epidemic may be twice as large as we think.

quote:

Large numbers of new STDs continue to occur each year in the United States, with serious health and economic consequences. More than two-thirds of our current estimate of 15 million STDs annually is contributed by two infections - trichomoniasis and HPV - for which we have only level III surveillance data. As the quality of our surveillance data improves, we can further refine the precision of our national estimates.

I find it interesting that across the span of time, we have gone from a time when cleanliness went from "I take a bath twice a year whether I need it or not" and disease was caused by "evil spirits in the blood", to a society where "Cleanliness is next to Godliness", many people shower every day, and Medicine is cutting edge. Back then they had STDs -"clap, pox, drip, et al -- but they weren't nearly as pervasive and there were not as many as there are today.

Why is that? Maybe STD's are just another way for Nature to try to thin out the herd.

I have good friends who are now over 50. Their claim to fame is that they made a career out of promiscuity... and never got a disease. They just seemed immune to it.

On the other hand, a young relative, whose mother was extremely prudish, got oral herpes from her mother. A shared drinking glass was all it took, and the girl has it for life.

So I don't care how much GG rants about sexual diseases, it's all bullshit.

quote:

I'm surprised George Bush allows that to happen. Maybe he isn't such a great conservative president after all.

According to Thom Hartmann, GWB paid for his girlfriend's abortion before he met Barbara Bush. Though if you are a true Bush fan, you may assume that he was just helping out an ex impregnated by someone else.

quote:

The very thing you are posting is nothing more than a cleverly conceived advertisement

Yeah I know that GG's figures give every appearance of being more the fiction of an advertiser than scientific fact, but not sure where I should be looking to get the facts. Trying the usual sources I did find out that a popular anti-constipation drug has been pulled from the market.

There is one that says sex and alcohol doesn't mix well among US teens:
http://www.kff.org/youthhivstds/20020207a-index.cfm

quote:

Having a romantic partner who is older (rather than in the same age group) is a risk factor for teen pregnancy and STIs. (Sexual Risk and Protective Factors, Kirby, et al., 2005)

In families that talk about sex, condoms and contraception, teens are less likely to get pregnant or get a sexual infection. (Kirby et al., 2005)

http://www.thinkagain.ca/findfactson/mythsfactsandstats

quote:

Some STIs are easily cured, some are life long, treatable but not cured, and some if left untreated could lead to infertility, cervical cancer or even death. These infections are spread through vaginal, oral or anal sex.

http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/epiu-aepi/std-mts/condom_e.html

quote:

In Canada, you have the right to make decisions about your body. You have the right to:

* Decide whether or not to have children, when to have children, and how many children to have
* Choose a birth control method that is right for you
* Receive sexual and reproductive health care services
* Receive information about sexual and reproductive health
* Choose your partner
* Agree whether or not to have sexual relations
* Decide when to have sex or not
* Choose whether or not to marry, agree to the marriage
* Respect your own body and your partner's body, to protect yourself and your partner from sexually transmitted diseases/HIV
Choose your own doctor.

http://www.thinkagain.ca/resources/choosingahealthclinic

This is not sex related, but it seems to me that if one truly respected their own body one would be able to do the impossible and avoid completely exposure to air freshioner and certain disinfectants. As long as exposure to air freshioner is unavoidable and one has to allow oneself to get really sick even to earn a living, one can't respect one's body because one is forced to continue to put ones self into physically abusive situations. One may be able to set limits, but the desire to earn a paycheck means that these limits keep getting broken.

I wonder what the overall affect on relationships is when you can't respect your body in a very important central way. On the other hand, you can limit how much you disrespect your body somewhat by deciding what is an important reason to purposely expose yourself to certain chemicals. Personally, I need a hair cut but the idea of being hung over for 24 hours is a bit of a deterent.

The article also gives pointers in choosing a clinic to help with an unplanned pregnancy and says to avoid places with "words like 'crisis' or 'distress' in their names." I wonder why.

quote:

Not true. You are only talking about names.

When I was making that statement, I was only talking about names. Captain Patch was talking about his paternal surname. I was trying to make the point that even if the surname died out, there could still be people related to him in the world.

quote:

I get the impression that great-whatever was a con man, skipping from Norfolk, VA, to OH, to whatever is N of Lake Superior, and then next generation went to N. WI in a swampy area by Stevens Point where he "homesteaded" 90 acres -- which the govt took from him during the Depression.

I checked to be sure it was only Ontario (and not bits of Quebec) and it is only Ontario which borders lake Superior. If losing ones land during the great depression is shameful, there is a lot of shame on every family tree.

There are different types of con men - and different reasons for pulling cons. There is the starving kid needing money type and the greedy living high off the hog type.

quote:

Nothing but losers in this branch -- which dies out once I'm gone because both my brother and I chose not to have kids.

Consider it our gift to humanity.

Do you know that relatives of Adolf Hitler are alive and living in New York State? Seems that they own a landscaping business:
http://www.cbc.ca/thehour/video.php?id=1326

Personally, I don't care if you are related to Nelson Mandela or Adolf Hitler, who you are related to doesn't determine what kind of person you are and what kind of people your kids will be. Before you make your final decision, you should listen to what Dave Grohl and Taylor Hawkins of the Foo Fighters say about parenthood (note that the person interviewing them once said that the scariest thing in the world is a broken condom, but recently mentioned his future grandchildren while interviewing Georges St Pierre):

http://www.cbc.ca/thehour/video.php?id=1683

Even Ashley MacIsaac and his husband Andrew Stokes plan to have kids some day.

quote:

That name is an invented name. My original name was extremely Jewish, from my father. If you are clever with the genealogy websites you can figure it all out.

Probably. But I tried for the life of me to figure out the two words that produced the following compound word ancestor to the name Margaret and could not do it:

morvarid=sea daughter, daughter of the sea, pearl;

quote:

You might think it is easier to trace families from males because they carry the name. However, there are adulteries, fornications and rapes that rarely get recorded in church documents. In most cases a known male was substituted as the legitimate father. The exeption was strict Catholic record keeping.

According to a friend, one is considered to be legally legitimate from birth if one's parents eventually get married. Her biological parents married each some time after she got married. She has two maiden names and two married names.

Even strict Catholic record keeping would presume that the person who married the suddenly chubby bride who gives birth three months later was the sperm donor.

Concede that, genetically, matrilineal is the way to go. Even there, with fires and everything, when people donate records they may not know the person's birth name or even their maiden name.

quote:

For Jews, genealogy is especially hopeless, since the Nazis destroyed everything the Jews ever did.

Canadian Jews tend to be more Russian Jews than German Jews so it may not make as much difference here as there. The US took in more Jews escaping Germany at the time, but I can't say the same for us.

quote:

Women are more accepting of extramarital sex, while males get neurotic over it.

Of whose extramarital sex? Traditionally, part of the reason for that was because women were economically dependent on men and, therefore, could not expect men to adhere to the same standards that they themselves were expected to adhere to. The other part is that women knew if they were raising their own biological offspring or not. Men with cheating wives did not.

The one thing that you can respect Prince Charles for, though, is even though there has been lots of speculation that Prince Harry isn't his, Charles has refused to give public credence to the allegation and has been a good father to Harry.

quote:

Jewish genealogy is very strong in supplying maiden names, because you inherit your Jewishness through your mother.

Say that to the devout Jewish grandparents who only had sons! I am pretty sure that they don't adhere very strictly to that tradition! Just because their son that is dead to them married a Muslim doesn't mean that their grandchild should not be raised Jewish!

quote:

I could write an entire book about all the ins and outs of genealogy research, but I won't. It's pretty interesting, and really gives you a perspective on human nature.

The same with the geneology of words. In fact, most names originated as words.

quote:

Sexually Transmitted Diseases (or STDs) are at unprecedented and epidemic proportions. Thirty years of the sexual revolution is paying an ugly dividend.

The sexual revolution? What do you mean by the sexual revolution? What changed?

quote:

I want to discuss the severity of the problem as well as what must be done if we are to save a majority of the next generation from the shame, infertility, and sometimes death, that may result from STDs. ...

This epidemic is a recent phenomenon. . .

I remember when the History teacher pointed to a person wearing an eye patch on the History text and telling us that the person was wearing an eye patch because his eye had been eaten away by gonoreah. According to him, Catherine the Great employed women to test out prospective boyfriends to make sure that they were disease free. And we all know what Henry the 8th died from.

Shame can be a barrier to getting treatment which may cure some STDs before they can cause too much damage. Anyone here watch Good Times - the episode where Jimmy Walker figures he has an STD but pretends that the reason he's going to the clinic is because he has a cold?

Do you want to discuss how to reduce the risk? Or just warn us against sex? If it is the latter, I can be abstinent on my own.

One reason against waiting for marriage is either that marriage can end in divorce (present day) or that one doesn't want to get married (because one's parents had an unhappy one). Another reason against waiting for marriage is that one doesn't plan to get married right away.

In the old days when people got married at age 16-22 and only lived to the age of 35-40 waiting until one got married made sense. That said, promiscuity is not the answer either. Isn't there some middle ground between total abstinence and total promiscuity?

quote:

SILENCE is killing our youth and the next generation.

I'll grant you that. But silent about a lot of things. In Africa, it is the silencing of women which is killing them. In Africa, married women are at a greater risk than single women for HIV - why is that? Does anyone have an answer?

In societies where women have no rights and where there is a double standard which punishes women, but not men, for sex outside marriage, there is a greater degree of rape because men can rape women with impunity. In certain parts of Africa, if a woman admits to being a victim of rape, she could be charged and jailed with adultery.

One thing I discovered when doing multigenerational genealogy trees is that bad families tend to die out. Lazyness, promiscuity, addiction and sexual abuse all lead eventually to extinction. It may take 6 generations, and it's not an absolute, but as a general rule it is true. This may be what the Ten Commandments mean by "I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of them that hate me".

Children from bad families can regain some sense, and become better people, and break the pattern of destruction. It's continuing those destructive behaviors that leads to extinction.

quote:

So I don't care how much GG rants about sexual diseases, it's all bullshit.

You didn't prove that Meg Meeker (is she related to Howie Meeker?) was bullshit. You only proved that abstinence does not necessarily protect one from STDs nor does promiscuity guarantee that one will get one. However, the odds are that one is more apt to get a STD if has multiple sexual partners - or choose a sexual partner who has had multiple partners. In other words, being a prude doesn't protect you if your spouse tends to engage in extramarital activity.

And, even if the statistics are accurate, which, in some parts of both our countries they may be, we must be sure that the actions we take to reduce the risk are not counter productive.

You heard of Karkos who tried to prevent people from reading "It's Perfectly Normal" by stealing two copies from the library?

quote:

Karkos' protest has made the book more popular, and requests for copies have increased, Speer said. He said he received several phone calls and e-mails from people around the country applauding the book and offering to buy the library more copies.
http://www.sunjournal.com/story/230314-3/LewistonAuburn...by_sex_book_removal/

I looked the book up on line and it is pretty pathetic. It is the type of book that would have gone out of style on its own, but now since there have been attempts to remove it or ban it people are interested in it. Karkos was the best thing that could happen to that book! Likewise, would we have all heard of the Satanic Verses if Salmon Rushdie did not get death threats for writing it?

quote:

on socio-cultural fears to promote the new gardasil hpv new STvaccine.

You need to prove your statement. I'm proving mine. (Many doctors, btw are speaking out against the vaccine).

You both seem to have hesitations concerning the Gardasil vacine, but probably for different reasons. Bonnie, I think you are hesitant about a vaccine that has not been well tested and whose long term side effects are unknown. GG, you seem to feel that giving a girl that vaccine is tacit approval of teen sex.

The danger is that Merck Frosst could make it sound as if the only people who are against mass administration of the Gardasil vaccine are more concerned with moral issues than safety issues. Think of it this way, those who object to Gardasil for moral reasons won't use it any way, and if Merck Frosst can make those voices louder than those who worry about the scientific issues, then they can make it sound like only a moral issue.

If Merck Frosst can get away with making opposition to the Gardasil vaccine sound like only a moral issue, parents will presume that the vaccine is safe and allow their daughters to receive it.

The National on Gardasil:
http://www.cbc.ca/national/blog/video/health/a_parents_dilemma.html

quote:

Meg Meeker is an expert on Sexually Transmitted Diseases.

Checked her out a bit. So she seems to be an expert on treating them - or to, at least, know what to do if someone shows up in her office with an STD. There may be areas in the US where the rates are that high. It seems to be the same area in the US where Meeker practices.

Is there any research which tells us whether

Abstinence Only

or

Abstinence And

prevention strategies work best?

Seems that a teen is more apt to get pregnant of contract a STD if she dates a nonteen. Education aspirations seem to play some role in it since girls who see school as a place where they are unsuccessful and unwelcome, and who are not involved in sports or other activities may gain too much of their self worth on whether or not they have a boyfriend.

If you need to have a boyfriend to feel good about yourself, then you have to have a boyfriend at all cost. If you can have a boyfriend or not, then you have control over what you do or do not decide to do. If you don't like how the relationship is going, then you can tell the guy to take a hike. If you can't be without a boyfriend, then you will give in even when you don't want to.

If having a boyfriend is not a status symbol, it is what you want or don't want that matters more. If you feel that a woman is nothing without a man, then you will do whatever it takes to make sure you have one.

quote:

The Journal of the American Medical Association reported in a February 2002 editorial

JAMA comes out once a week and abstracts are free! Are you talking about: "Unveiling the Hidden Epidemic of Sexually Transmitted Diseases" by J. Dennis Fortenberry, JAMA. 2002;287:768-769.

Here is a link to the article so you can judge for yourself if Meeker's interpretation of it is accurate (I hate pdf articles with a passion! they are so hard to cut and paste from):

http://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Unveiling%20the%20Hidd...emic%20of%20STDs.pdf

Fortenberry also seems to feel that the stigmatizing sexuality and STDs increases the prevailance of STDs.

Turner et al:
http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/vol287/issue6/index.dtl

quote:

Maybe STD's are just another way for Nature to try to thin out the herd.

I thought Free Market economies were.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Vaudree,

quote:

Originally posted by Vaudree:

quote:

Maybe STD's are just another way for Nature to try to thin out the herd.

I thought Free Market economies were.

What? Are you suggesting that Free Market economies are a Natural occurence?

As natural as greed and lust and gluttony!

Think I missed a couple of old posts.

quote:

Tracing back to Ireland, the last ones there were a pair of brothers. They made most of their money from being moneylenders in questionable transactions.

Did those brothers have cousins? Were their parents only children?

quote:

When the Depression came along, things fell apart and he skipped out, never to be seen or heard from again. He left behind a wife with 5 sons and two daughters.

It was tough during those days, and there was little work. Looking at the faces of his starving children may have been too much for him if he could do nothing about it. In the old days, when men started thinking that their families were no better with them than without them, they left.

Who knows, he may have changed his name and started over. Probably some young thing who stroked his ego and whom he married illegally when the bread started rising in the oven.

And Gnarlodious is right - inheritance comes from the matrilineal line.

quote:

Of the entire bunch, I'm the only one that isn't an alcoholic and/or married to an alcoholic.

As you say, we are related to more people than just those with the same last name. But for our branch of the family, the name was equivalent to "loser" and "white trash".

Some good hard working honest folk are considered white trash (white and poor). So what! What do you need to redeem yourself for. You seem to be chastising yourself over "original sin" of the sins of your forefathers.

And maybe you descended from the more moral of the two brothers - the one who tried to set it right rather than the one who scampered off at the first sign of trouble to leave his younger brother to take the fall.

Maybe it will turn out that you are related to Tommy Prince, one of Canada's most decorated war heros and an alcoholic. What about Alice Cooper, he was another famous alcoholic. Or what about Sir John A?

"I get sick ... not because of drink [but because] I am forced to listen to the ranting of my honourable opponent." - Sir John A MacDonald, first Prime Minister of Canada

There are good reasons not to reproduce, but having jerks for relatives is not one of them! Personally, I think that the descendants of Adolf Hitlers's nephew are being stupid by not reproducing themselves.

What they are probably losing out on is the birth of David Abraham Hitler, peace activist who negotiates peace in the Middle East. And then you would not have the birth of his kids Sarah and Terek and his wife, Lilith Amira Asper-Abualsameed, would, instead be living a life of loneliness.

quote:

One thing I discovered when doing multigenerational genealogy trees is that bad families tend to die out.

So do good families. I hate to think that all those people who died during the Holocost and Rwanda and Darfur were bad people and that the people who survived were all good. I hate to think that all these generations of Bush's are a sign of their virtue!

Endogamy tends to limit the gene pool in that when you marry cousins you produce less kids over all than if you practice exogamy. That and the potential double whammy of anything that runs in the family.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Vaudree,

quote:

Originally posted by Vaudree:

quote:

Tracing back to Ireland, the last ones there were a pair of brothers. They made most of their money from being moneylenders in questionable transactions.

Did those brothers have cousins? Were their parents only children?

The name no longer exists in Ireland. Neither brother was married while in Ireland. Back then, the name had a "Mc" on it, but when both brothers arrived in the US (years apart), they dropped the "Mc". I had thought it was to "Americanize" the name, but then I learned that "Mc" means "clan" or "Family". It seems a possibility that by the time they arrived in the US, both brothers no longer felt that they qualified as a clan.

What I know of the feud was that the brothers started out wealthier than the other clan, but they were relying on assets and hired help. The other clan just wore them down with raids on livestock and destroying structures. The elder saw the writing on the wall and cashed in his interest in what remained, selling out at a discount to the younger brother. Then he took his liquid assets to the US where he made the most of them.

He was definitely the smarter of the two. The younger _tried_ to muscle back but nearly bankrupted himself fighting a losing battle. He skipped out before the final confrontation with little more than the clothes he was wearing.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this discussion is the responsibility of the parents of these sexually active teens.

As the current father of 3 teenage boys (19,17,14) I am knee deep in this subject.

My wife and I constantly ask our sons where they've been, who they're with and what they've been doing. We routinely show up unexpectedly where they are "supposed" to be to verify they are where and with whom they say they are.

We encourage them to stay busy with jobs or after school activities so that they won't have the time or energy to give in to temptations.

So far we have been successful.

Two parent families without question are more capeable of keeping teens in check. I suppose the problem compounds itself. An out of wedlock birth leeds to a single parent upbringing and another unsupervised teen.

There are many more dynamics to this subject such as the breakdown of morality, the increasing acceptance of sexual deviance, the increased effectiveness of birth control and the availability of abortions and welfare. All of which lessen the consequences of promiscuity.

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One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this discussion is the responsibility of the parents of these sexually active teens.

I did.

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Originally posted by Gnarlodious:
I have good friends who are now over 50. Their claim to fame is that they made a career out of promiscuity... and never got a disease. They just seemed immune to it.

They probably didn't start having sex as kids as is blatantly encouraged in modern society. Kids bodies have not the protection from STDs that adults develop more of, and a women acquires after a full term pregnancy.

Over 15 million newly infected Americans every year; that should sound some alarms, but if even the researchers and the medical sources won't speak out, don't you suspect what's behind the silencing?

Thank about it???!

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Originally posted by GG:

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Originally posted by Gnarlodious:
I have good friends who are now over 50. Their claim to fame is that they made a career out of promiscuity... and never got a disease. They just seemed immune to it.

They probably didn't start having sex as kids as is blatantly encouraged ultra modernists. Kids bodies have not the protection from STDs that adults develop more of, and a women acquires after a full term pregnancy.

Over 15 million newly infected Americans every year; that should sound some alarms, but if even the researchers and the medical sources won't speak out, don't you suspect what's behind the silencing?

Thank about it???!

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Two parent families without question are more capeable of keeping teens in check. I suppose the problem compounds itself. An out of wedlock birth leeds to a single parent upbringing and another unsupervised teen.

Are you assuming that the communication would be less between a teen with a single parent and a teen with two parents? Or are you assuming that with two parents that one will always be at home?

I hope that you are not insinuating that teens and the single parent have a greater tendency to double date!

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There are many more dynamics to this subject such as the breakdown of morality, the increasing acceptance of sexual deviance, the increased effectiveness of birth control and the availability of abortions and welfare. All of which lessen the consequences of promiscuity.

I doubt that there was a generation more promiscuous than the baby boomers - in the days before AIDs or even Herpees was known about.

The problem with this generation is that sex is a weakness in women because their desirability and value come from being with a man. We are breeding a nation of Bratz dolls and Zwinky's (which is basically a winky with a "Z" on it - aka penis girl). You feel like your IQ and independence goes down three degrees just coming across penis girl three times a day (and some web pages that is the only add they have on them). I am still wondering when they will come out with her equally skanky boyfriend Zvaginus!

It is not the sexuality of these role models for young girls that is the problem but the idea that being frail and intellectually vacuous and having no desire but to please a guy and to shop which is the problem. They lack the toughness, the make it worth my while or forget it edge of a Pat Benatar, Joan Jett or Debra Harry.

Do guys really like the "I am dumb and my only goal in life is to please you" routine young girls are expected to emulate? It is almost as if getting an education or doing good in school is seen as something that will make you unattractive to guys.

And it is not teen pregnancy that ruins a life but the idea that you can't continue your education if you have a baby - that you can't get a decent job. It is not like it costs you that much money to give birth in a hospital, there is the TV rental and the parking and maybe a bit of coffee from the vending machine.

GG you quoted the following from your Meeker book. I looked through the four issues of JAMA in question and I think I found the article, was I right?

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The Journal of the American Medical Association reported in a February 2002 editorial that the number of people with asymptomatic STDs (diseases with no outward symptoms like lesions or warts) probably exceeds those whose diseases are diagnosed. This means that the epidemic may be twice as large as we think.

Does Meeker see the article in question the same way you do?

CaptainPatch, Gnarlodious makes a good point about the boys having a mommy as well as a daddy. What was her name before she got married?

Vaudree

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In Canada, you have the right to make decisions about your body

Anybody protecting the baby??

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The sexual revolution? What do you mean by the sexual revolution? What changed?

The Humanist Revolution - man is God.

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In societies where women have no rights and where there is a double standard which punishes women, but not men, for sex outside marriage, there is a greater degree of rape because men can rape women with impunity. In certain parts of Africa, if a woman admits to being a victim of rape, she could be charged and jailed with adultery.

Likewise, by Islamic Law women are stoned or hanged.

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Shame can be a barrier to getting treatment which may cure some STDs

Shame and bashfulness is a natural wholesome restraint from entering into reckless sexual activities that lead to getting STDs that further lead to suicide. Suicide is at crises level with our teens.

It's time to start connecting the dots why there are more teens suffering from depression, eating disorders, cuttings to the body, cancers previously found only in old people, and suicide.

It's time to start paying attention to the teens who say they wish they had waited to have sex.

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Do you want to discuss how to reduce the risk?

Chastity reduces the risk. There is nothing else that is equivilent. It's a game of Russian roulette if any think artificial components will give protection.

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Or just warn us against sex?

What's to warn about sex in marriage when spouses are more suitably prepared? OUtside marriage there are countless consequences. (Yes, I know not all marriages are made in heaven.) But sex is not for the unmarried. Human sexuality is a gift to be protected.

Vaudree

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Does Meeker see the article in question the same way you do?

We need to grasp what she is witnessing as a Pediatrician. She sees it as epidemic level.

Silence kills more people than any war.

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Originally posted by GG:
They probably didn't start having sex as kids as is blatantly encouraged ultra modernists.

You make an awful lot of assumptions that are wrong, and you keep on making the same unfounded statements.

I'd say you are a frigid old woman who hates sex. But that's OK, my sister was the same way and I understand it. The world would be better off if we could reproduce parthenogenically. But that's not how the system works. Sorry.

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Originally posted by Gnarlodious:

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Originally posted by GG:
They probably didn't start having sex as kids as is blatantly encouraged ultra modernists.

You make an awful lot of assumptions that are wrong, and you keep on making the same unfounded statements.

I'd say you are a frigid old woman who hates sex. But that's OK, my sister was the same way and I understand it. The world would be better off if we could reproduce parthenogenically. But that's not how the system works. Sorry.

Gnarlodious - There is nobility to masculinity and femininity. Human love and loving is a gift and is according to human nature.

Love has a responsibility and is much more then just sensuality and feelings.

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Originally posted by GG:
Love has a responsibility and is much more then just sensuality and feelings.

There is Love, and then there is Sex; sometimes the two intersect.

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Originally posted by CaptainPatch:

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Originally posted by GG:
Love has a responsibility and is much more then just sensuality and feelings.

There is Love, and then there is Sex; sometimes the two intersect.

Love has a responsibility and is other centered.

Love is subject to the good of the other or it is not love but reckless behavior without fulfillment nor character building.

GG:
You say these things because they are your beliefs. They may not be my beliefs, or anyone else's here. Your truth does not apply to me. You are certainly entitled to your beliefs, and I don't expect you to believe what I believe. As far as I am concerned, you are just fine the way you are.

What you are preaching here is a gospel, your own personal gospel. But when you interpret my statements wrongly in support of your personal gospel, I have to object. Many people on this website are preaching gospels, including myself. Let's not put words in each other's mouth.

Personally, I don't believe that "here is nobility to masculinity and femininity". I don't believe that love is a gift and I don't know what "human nature" is. If you can allow me to be that way I will have a lot more respect for you.

Gnarlodious - I'm not getting personal. The fact is that teens are dying and teen sex is the major cause. I'm creating an awareness of millions being infected with STDs that lead to death, and btw recreational sex by teens is also a root cause of suicide that is epidemic.

I don't understand the distractions. Our youth deserve our protection; our youth need a life line and obviously free sex is not a life line - quite the contrary according to the facts.

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Anybody protecting the baby??

If there is reasonable belief that the baby's life is in danger, the baby does not leave the hospital with his or her parents but is taken directly into care.

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The Humanist Revolution - man is God.

Oh, you are talking about the "me" generation. Yeah, they were a bit selfish.

The worship of the presumably free market is a putting "me" ahead of "us" NAFTA and the SPP are a promotion of the very "man is god" attitude you hate. Likewise, this opposition to Kyoto is basically putting the selfish greed of oil barons to make a profit ahead of the need of rest of us to have clean air.

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Likewise, by Islamic Law women are stoned or hanged.

There is a difference between the laws of an Islamic country and Islamic law. For example, the US and Canada are, in part, Islamic countries but they don't do those kinds of things any more here.

Wasn't there a scene in the bible about Christ's mother facing a stoning? Women used to be jailed for a perceived lack of sexual morals in North America. In fact, they were sometimes burned as witches! Christianity has improved only recently.

BTW - Why do Fathers but not Mother Superiors act as Priests in the Catholic church?

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There is Love, and then there is Sex; sometimes the two intersect.

A nice way to reduce guilt is to allow one's self to mistake feelings of lust and longing for those of love. Being "in love" makes sex "ok" in the mind of a teen age girl who wants to have sex but doesn't want to see herself as "that kind of girl".

Seriously, they should intersect in a healthy relationship. But there are certain guys that exude sex appeal and all the girls thing that they are in love with him. Remember how many girls used to have crushes on Rock Hudson, for instance?

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Shame and bashfulness is a natural wholesome restraint from entering into reckless sexual activities that lead to getting STDs that further lead to suicide.

Shame is a post event emotion: to feel shame one must first do something which makes one feel ashamed. Bashful means that you will find it difficult to talk to someone or stick up for your rights in a relationship.

How many of you have heard the male line "let's talk later" - and the reason for that line is that the guy is afraid that if you talk about it first, reason will rule over lust. And bashful means that while he is kissing your neck and you are trying to bring up the topic of protection that you will lose your nerve.

Being bashful means not wanting to appear too experienced, not wanting to rock the boat, and not asking the questions that the guy kissing your neck doesn't really want to answer.

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It's time to start paying attention to the teens who say they wish they had waited to have sex.

There is a difference between teens who are happy with when they started and teens who wished they waited. The ones who wished they waited tend to feel as if they were used - that the guy they were with only wanted sex from then and they thought he actually liked her. Or that one was drunk or high the first time. Or one was exploited by someone much older whom they were taught to trust.

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Suicide is at crises level with our teens. It's time to start connecting the dots why there are more teens suffering from depression, eating disorders, cuttings to the body, cancers previously found only in old people, and suicide.

Eating Disorders: Eating disorders occur in virgins as well. Sometimes they are cause by a need to have control over something, but many times they are cause because girls consider themselves ugly if they are not thin.

Remember Britney Spears's attempt at a comeback? George Stroumboulopoulos took issue with critics who complained that BS took on weight (saying that now she looks normal), though conceded that other aspects of her comeback were embarassing. The point is that little girls were told that BS was fat in that comeback photo so they are more apt to see themselves as fat. Fat=ugly in our society.

Suicide: So people are becoming suicidal because they had bad sex? There are plenty of reasons why kids commit suicide - one is poverty and future hopelessness.

Cancer: Cancers found younger and younger people tends to be more due to our deteriorating environment - than sex.
On Sept. 12, the federal government offered a one-time $20,000 payment for people exposed to Agent Orange that was sprayed at Gagetown by the U.S. military in 1966 and 1967.

The money was far from enough to satisfy thousands of former Gagetown soldiers and civilians who say they were affected by a broad range of defoliants used at the base throughout the 1950s, '60s and '70s. They are part of a class-action lawsuit led by lawyer Tony Merchant, who views the new Heritage Research Associates study with caution.

You heard of the Sydney tar ponds - which has to be one of the most polluted spots in the world.

Those who live near the ponds, especially those in Whitney Pier, adjacent to the site, have complained of massive headaches, nosebleeds, and serious breathing problems.

It's also believed that the wastes which make up the tar ponds contain 15 varieties of cancer related chemicals. Today, Sydney has one of the highest rates of cancer, birth defects, and miscarriages in Canada.

The effects on animal and plant life in the area have also been severe. In 1980 chemical byproducts from the coke-oven process were discovered in lobsters.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/tarponds/

You are blaming sex for stuff caused by big corporations who don't clean up their mess after they are finished playing with their toys!

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Chastity reduces the risk. There is nothing else that is equivilent. It's a game of Russian roulette if any think artificial components will give protection.

Condoms remove a few bullets from the gun.

Chastity eliminates the risk except in cases of rape. But how do we better protect the unchaste ? Don't the unchaste also deserve some form of protection?

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But sex is not for the unmarried.

Which is why you support gay marriage - to discourage homosexuals from having sex outside of marriage?

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Does Meeker see the article in question the same way you do?

We need to grasp what she is witnessing as a Pediatrician. She sees it as epidemic level.

So you looked at the editorial that Meeker sited and felt too intimidated by it?

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I'd say you are a frigid old woman who hates sex.

Both the frigid and the nymphomaniac are worth while human beings. Both are opposite sides of the same coin, BTW.

Gnarlodious, your grandmother was so anxious to leave home that she married to escape it rather than out of love. There was something not too good going on at home. By the time you knew her, she was an alcoholic, which means that she was not coping well with life. Alcohol is something people turn to to cope with something they have trouble coping with.

You like your grandfather better and he was probably OK. Some of what you say which may be harmless in him, are signs of something not so harmless in others.

When you see an overly friendly husband and a depressed looking wife it is usually a sign that the guy is a player. When a guy complains about his sex life, usually it is a prelude to asking you to do something to improve it. Concede that it could be a ploy to get you to talk to the wife and find out why she is pissed off at him because he doesn't have a clue. Sometimes it is advice to sons and grandsons not to get married. Other times the motives are not so innocent.

Re parthenogenically: Mary tried that and was pregnant while she was still engaged to be married to Joseph.

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There is nobility to masculinity and femininity.

And all of us have been endowed with a good sampling from both sets of these noble traits.

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The fact is that teens are dying and teen sex is the major cause.

I don't believe it. Suicide, drugs, crime and drunk driving are much higher risks that dying of sex.

Gnarlodious, if a person with heart problems takes Viagra, did they die from the drug or did they die from sex?

Depends on if you're the defendant or the plaintiff

I tend to agree with Randal. And I take stats and interpretations from agenda-driven sites with a grain of salt, particularly if they don't reference recent medical literature. For example, the first article claims that HPV causes 99.7% of cervical cancer cases, but doesn't mention that most HPV strains aren't associated with cancer and have no symptoms. And I don't know where they get their herpes figures from, but even for the population aged 14-49 the incidence of type 2 was 21%. A 2006 CDC study reported that it declined to 17%, with condom use, alternatives to intercourse, and fewer partners being factors. Specifically for teens, rates were lower and showed an even greater decline.

One other thing to consider is that several European countries have lower rates of disease and unwanted pregnancy despite their more relaxed attitudes toward sexuality. France does have a higher average age of first intercourse than the U.S., while others like Sweden and Denmark are similar or slightly lower. I suspect access to information and protection is key. In America, young people are often kept in the dark, and when they have the nerve to go against familial or cultural prohibitions (which still exist despite the media), they're pretty much clueless and at greater risk.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Ryan T,

Vaudree

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But how do we better protect the unchaste ? Don't the unchaste also deserve some form of protection?

There is none nor will there ever be "protection" for what is UNnatural.

Ryan T

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One other thing to consider is that several European countries have lower rates of disease and unwanted pregnancy despite their more relaxed attitudes toward sexuality.

These countries are also disappearing from the face of the earth. Have you seen "THE MAP OF SHAME" thread?

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I suspect access to information and protection is key. In America, young people are often kept in the dark, and when they have the nerve to go against familial or cultural prohibitions (which still exist despite the media), they're clueless and at greater risk.

It appears you have no idea how over loaded youth are with information in regards to "getting sexually active" and the promoters. We live in a nation where too often minors have more authority than parents and guardians.

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These countries are also disappearing from the face of the earth. Have you seen "THE MAP OF SHAME" thread?

You are comparing apples with oranges. We are talking about teen sex not low birth rates. There is no connection

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I suspect access to information and protection is key. In America, young people are often kept in the dark, and when they have the nerve to go against familial or cultural prohibitions (which still exist despite the media), they're clueless and at greater risk.

Thats the job of parents and the society at large. You want capitalism you want free market and no limits on connerce. Well sex sells and the suggestive wear that could only be found in Victoria's Secret and Fredericks of Hollywood can be purchased in Kay Mart Sears, etc. It makes money You can't have it both ways Oh you will damn and attack these kids (they are not blameless) but nobody attacks Madison Avenue, the corporate media. This is not liberation its capitalism!

Gnarlodious, if he didn't have a bad heart would the mixture of viagra and sex had killed him - says the attorney?

Thinking of former Prime Minister Jean Cretien who is recovering from the quadruple heart bypass surgery he had this afternoon. Playing golf saved his life. He was playing golf with a cardiologist and complained of having chest pains.

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But how do we better protect the unchaste ? Don't the unchaste also deserve some form of protection?

There is none nor will there ever be "protection" for what is UNnatural.

Are you saying that the unchaste deserve to die? Or are you saying that being chaste is the natural state and those who are unchaste are in reality chaste people who have succumbed to the message of the "promoters."

Who are the "promoters" - formerly chaste people who fell victim to "promoters" in their youth?

Then who was the original "promoter" Lilith the snake demon in the garden of Eden?

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Have you seen "THE MAP OF SHAME" thread?

I looked at your "map of shame" and North America looks like one country. Ryan T was talking about Europe, not any of the countries discussed on that thread. I was once told that bathing suits are optional on French beaches - that grandparents, kids and grandchildren all swim naked. Made a mental note not to holiday France.

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You want capitalism you want free market and no limits on connerce. Well sex sells and the suggestive wear that could only be found in Victoria's Secret and Fredericks of Hollywood can be purchased in Kay Mart Sears, etc.

That is true. The market is based on making a profit and morality doesn't enter into it at all. Pimping is a form of commerce where the workers are exploited and work under unsafe working conditions. The free market doesn't think it fair that employers (or pimps for that matter) be forced to provide safe work environments for their employees.

And then there is a big lucrative child porn industry out there - which would not exist unless it was profitable. But, says the free market Tories, we should let the market decide!

*Tory is a word that denotes a right-winger/Neo Con. In the original Irish it meant "thief."

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But how do we better protect the unchaste ? Don't the unchaste also deserve some form of protection?

Yeah, and that protection is known as condoms and birth control.

You want to "save the world"? Then get off your disassociated socially isolated high horse "bubble" and reintegrate with reality.

OK - here's where the "rubber" meets the road...

GG. you claim to be a deeply faithful person - yet, you seem to live in fear of judgment and death. Death is reality. Death happens to everyone.

One can attempt to distance one's self from death by pointing fingers and saying, "You're actions asked for this. You made your bed - now lie in it"

But that's not the way it really works.

And then there are BIGGER people. People who truly understand the human condition and choose to be a part of it -- not run away and try to disconnect from it by splitting off and disconnecting from their own emotions and pointing out where others are failing while refusing to see how miserably they are failing in their own lives and relationships.

With that said, all I am left with is wondering what hardships and painful experiences you must have lived through to leave you so emotionally disconnected and judgmental.

Whatever it was - it must have been very painful.

I think that society needs more data. And a thoughtful solution to ensure the safety, and privacy of families.

Let's wait, and prepare to count, in the year 2200, not too far off to count solar-years, how many in society are: nanoogenarian age, or transvestites, or virgins, or grandmas' heading extended-families living in Long-Houses, or identifiers with the middle class, or 'resultant entities' born in laboratory (test-tube)fertilization grafts, and then, "PLEASE, let's go out and not, be in crisis mode about it!" Pill Street Blues

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With that said, all I am left with is wondering what hardships and painful experiences you must have lived through to leave you so emotionally disconnected and judgmental.

Whatever it was - it must have been very painful.

We both know she did and that it was - is still many years later. I also think that the true "promoters" on the right manipulated her shock in order to indoctrinate her. Shock Indoctrination.

Let me attempt to translate GG - one can be a nonvirgin and still be chaste if one renounces sex.

However, I don't think GG sees a difference between the unchaste and what she calls "promoters" and I don't think that she distinguishes between "promoters" and the type of person who collects certain images.

Seems that bashfulness doesn't protect babies, though:

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Images of infants seized in N.B. child porn investigation

The largest ever child pornography investigation in New Brunswick has resulted in the arrest of seven people and the confiscation of sexual images depicting infants, police said Thursday. ...

The seized images show young males, ranging in age from four months to 14 years old, in a sexual context, RCMP Cpl. Jackie Basque said. ...

There is no evidence so far to suggest that any of the children in the seized images are from New Brunswick, she added.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2007/10/04/nb-porn-arrest.html

Being in possession of child porn is a hate crime under Canadian law. What the police have to do now is look at the pictures for clues to locate the children and the people who originally took the pictures/video.

This should disgust everyone on the thread.

The thing is that this is what GG sees any book that says that sex is not dirty as advocating. When we say that teens should be taught about condom use, she sees us as the type of people capable of those things.

If some racist tells her that Iraqis are capable of that, she figures that torturing them is justified. But don't you feel that torture would be fitting for the arrested in the above article?

You associate any group or idea with "promoters" and she will be against it.

Bonnie
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But how do we better protect the unchaste ? Don't the unchaste also deserve some form of protection?

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Yeah, and that protection is known as condoms and birth control.

These methods do not protect or we would not be having an STD epidemic.

Society does a lot to keep youth safe, but continually sells them sex and lie how to have safe sex with condoms and birth control pills!!??. Who's not real, Bonnie? The best of medical care cannot keep our youth safe if they are sexually active. It's only takes one experience and the suffering is for the rest of a teen's life which can also be passed to their children infecting their brains.

25% of teens sexually active already have an STD, most without obvious symptoms.

The epidemic facts are recorded by the CDC, New England Journal of Medicine, NIH. The silence is deafening! Bad emotions and guilt are keeping the facts silent all the while 8-10 thousand newly infected DAILY. In less than 10 years, according to Dr. Meeker, STD expert, 50% of white males will be infected with an STD.

Teens believe they don't have a choice about sexual activity. We fail to see, feel, or hear what they see, hear, or feel.

Teens need to refuse to be spoken to like they are out of control.

Please, let's stay on topic of thread. Your judgments against my character adds no value to this important discussion. It's about our youth. The issue deserves all the attention; the character assassinating is wasted space.

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And then there are BIGGER people. People who truly understand the human condition and choose to be a part of it -- not run away and try to disconnect from it by splitting off and disconnecting

I've connected with the facts of cervical cancer cells once only in old people, abnormal pap smears for teens, STDs causing infertility, babies brains infected from parent(s) STD, 50% more genital herpes since the 80s, HPV1 oral STD and HPV2 genital STD all over the body, an increase of over 30 - 50 new STDs since the 60s of only two - - - Who's running away from it??? Who's paying attention to the welfare of our youth?

Irregular sex violates the human condition - that is what needs to be truly understood.