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Posted Hide Post
Kate,

Enchanted moments
Mysterious chemistry
These make life worthwhile.

Smiler

Don,

Email to follow.

Sorry for the hijack, carry on.


Lead from the front, and I'm likely to follow. Prod me from behind with a bayonet, and I'm likely to shove that bayonet down your throat.
 
Posts: 719 | Location: south africa | Registered: 25 September 2002Report This Post
Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Rutherford:
Ok, so banal is our new word. After Sue so graciously spelled out what a diatribe is, it seems we have another example. So let it be...

As far as my peeping or not peeping, nothing says that I must respond to attacks or even in the time frame that you specify. But looking at your quote of me, it seems that you have messed it up and as a result may have missed my opening portion:
quote:
Thanks for your words of wisdom as well as providing another example of divergent thinking.
To me, that allowed you to save grace and end this line of attacks, but it seems you had other thoughts you had to express. Let us again look at what Kate wrote:


Reframing my posts as attacks on you or anyone does not make them attacks. I don't attack you, Ronald, I'm sorry if you feel a little criticism of your logic to be an attack, but that's unavoidable on my part, I suppose, since it's not my intent. I merely describe what you say and how I react to your words. You personally? I don't even know if there is such a corporeal thing. I figure he who projects being attacked by someone is probably probably carrying such an intent, at the very least on that same someone. Else, where would the thought come from? The thought of attacking you personally never enters my mind. I merely made it clear that your words bore me, and it was not a label about you personally but a description of the effects of your words when I read them.

I dissected the blogger of your link -- one Dr. Sanity -- with its allusion to paranoid logic in reference to leftists who use "creative" thinking of a sort sometimes called "conspiracy theory, an allusion which fits under the broader category of "abduction" of its own, in case you are interested, a form of logic that would indeed go well with divergent thinking.

quote:
abduction logic
The process of inference to the best explanation.
"Abduction" is sometimes used to mean just the generation of hypotheses to explain observations or conclusions, but the former definition is more common both in philosophy and computing.
The semantics and the implementation of abduction cannot be reduced to those for deduction, as explanation cannot be reduced to implication.

Applications include fault diagnosis, plan formation and default reasoning.
Negation as failure in logic programming can both be given an abductive interpretation and also can be used to implement abduction. The abductive semantics of negation as failure leads naturally to an argumentation-theoretic interpretation of default reasoning in general.



I dissected your response to Kate whereby you changed her "hypothetical" to your "assume" and then made that strange set of logic constructions whereby to hypothesize one must have proof. That of course, implies that you logically took the assume definition of "take for grated or without proof" which was why I figured it worth your while to re-examine your own assumptions about everyone's use of hypothesis. And I pointed out for your edification that when I'm using divergent thinking I tend to hypothesize. Beyond that, what you want to assume is beyond my influence in any way.

I have asked for explanation and clarification several times, so I could grasp how you are using terms like "convergent" and "divergent" thinking; so far you haven't shown any inclination to honor those requests.

quote:
quote:
Or assemble more diatribes...


Sue: The latin says it best, I think: spend time, wear away, rub.

Please enjoy your discourses without rubbing away at each other. The friction may give heat, but it won't give light.


I don't understand the post from Sue, nor do I understand how "banal" correlates to what she said. I think it's clear I'm trying to understand what people are talking about here on the board. If someone says things that are boring instead of clarifying, then it's up to that someone to be more clarifying or continue to produce boring. That's a simple, straight forward description is all. If you want to pretend or assume my posts are attacks on you, that's fine with me, especially after your amusing bit of abduction with paranoid logic, at least I get a little amusement, but I'll be more than willing to ignore you if you consider my postings such a disturbance as to seem an attack on you. I have no interest in disturbing anyone -- not even if such person were to ask me to.
 
Posts: 3997 | Location: Road Prison 36 | Registered: 05 February 2004Report This Post
Picture of --Kate
Posted Hide Post
Smiler

Morning, michael. It's good to have your input, and this thread is a good place for it. You've reminded me of the types of conversations that are possible.

Good to see you back, ren. It will be interesting to see what develops.


---------------------------------------------------------------
"if you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got."
---------------------------------------------------------------
 
Posts: 6804 | Location: usa | Registered: 09 February 2006Report This Post
Picture of Loganthor
Posted Hide Post
Welcome back Ren

Are you near the river that flooded I5?


**** Disclaimer: The information in this weblog is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights. This weblog does not represent the thoughts, intentions, plans or strategies of my owner. It is solely my own personal opinion. Inappropriate comments will be deleted at the authors discretion.***

"I stand or fall on my own words."
 
Posts: 7253 | Location: PORTLAND | Registered: 07 November 2005Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Loganthor:
Welcome back Ren

Are you near the river that flooded I5?


Thanks,

No, I've moved. But I wasn't near Centralia before, I lived about twenty five miles south on the Toutle.

We got our asses kicked here. I don't think anybody's quite figured out what exactly hit here, yet. I'm not living where much attention gets paid to us. We just take care of our own, best we can. I figure at least 120 mph gusts, but it was the duration that was the ultimate killer. Close to eighteen hours. I lost "my" (not literally, it was donated to the state and preserved as a park) old growth grove where I hiked daily. It's very sad. The last one in Southwestern Washington. Gone. Just so many downed trees waiting to be carted off to the mill. Four - Five hundred or more year old trees. Took Bonneville's power lines when they went. I don't know from where they've rerouted the electricity that we are getting right now. They haven't even tried to get near the power lines yet, that's going to be some major effort.

I'm still reroofing my house, but the major leaks are fixed, I see, now that the rain is coming down again. It took a couple of days before I could get new shingles from a guy with a flashlight at the Ace hardware who could only take check or cash. Many got it much worse than I did. And so I'll be out and about trying to help for a while.
 
Posts: 3997 | Location: Road Prison 36 | Registered: 05 February 2004Report This Post
Picture of meljomur
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Sorry to hear about that ren.

I live in Seattle, but on a hill, so we weren't effected at all by the flooding, however I saw the photos on the news and they were awful.

I heard that Governor Gregoire has issued a state of emergency and is asking for assistance from the federal government (FEMA). I wonder how long that will take to arrive?

Good luck, take care.


"Yeehaw" is not a foreign policy!
 
Posts: 875 | Location: The Emerald City | Registered: 02 January 2007Report This Post
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Man, I heard there was a storm but I had no idea. Sorry to hear about that Ren. It changes a place when the trees come down like that. It's a real pity. Hang in there.


A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
 
Posts: 8264 | Location: Fl | Registered: 05 July 2001Report This Post
Picture of Slabmaster
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Good to hear you're digging out OK Ren. I had heard of 120mph winds down that way. We were spared the wind fortunately. It would have been a replay of last winter if we got whacked.
Monday was like no other.
6" of snow melted over the weekend and 5.8 Billion gallons dumped Monday morning. 4-5' of standing water in our business park in Redmond with half of the buildings 6" deep. Miles of roadways cut off. Chaos at every corner.

We have turned away over 100 jobs/day since Monday. Purchased 250K in new equipment Monday afternoon and have everyone working around the clock. Still not even close.
Our selective list of who to get to next is 200 deep.
No time off for Christmas this year.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user."

Theodore Roosevelt, 1913

 
Posts: 2404 | Location: Redmond WA | Registered: 04 September 2006Report This Post
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Oh my. Slab, I hope that does not mark you as one of those "Shock Capitalists".
 
Posts: 7939 | Location: Santa Barbara | Registered: 19 July 2005Report This Post
Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by meljomur:
Sorry to hear about that ren.

I live in Seattle, but on a hill, so we weren't effected at all by the flooding, however I saw the photos on the news and they were awful.

I heard that Governor Gregoire has issued a state of emergency and is asking for assistance from the federal government (FEMA). I wonder how long that will take to arrive?

Good luck, take care.


I just got back from doing the rounds. FEMA is already here, the National Guard was here yesterday but they are needed elsewhere much more. We've got everyone pulled out here. FEMA gave out free generators over the last couple of days I heard. And they are open for business to pay for storm damage repairs.

While I was out and about, I heard the official top wind speed was 127 mph here where I am. People who have gone through hurricanes said they were mild compared to this extended high winds we dealt with. I'm sure many the big trees would have made it if the duration was just that of a hurricane, because we've had high winds before and they were here after all those years. It was the extended whipping back and forth that finally broke roots loose.

My friend Stephanie's car was totaled. The tree just missed her house and hit the car instead. Another friend lost the corner of her house. Just about everyone needs shingle work. Lot's of trees to cut up.

Slab, I'm sure you'll be busy for some time. This area looks like a war zone. This is what we always hope won't happen this time a year, enough snow in the mountains and a big warm storm with a lot of water. I heard this was the second heaviest rainfall on record, but it's the melting snow that made it a catastrophe.

Yeah, Don, it changes a lot when the trees come down like that. There is no place I can do my walks without having to climb over downed trees. Makes for quite a work out and I don't get very far.

Thanks for all the kind thoughts.
 
Posts: 3997 | Location: Road Prison 36 | Registered: 05 February 2004Report This Post
Picture of Slabmaster
Posted Hide Post
Ren,
I take it you are south of Olympia.
If you need help with water mitigation or repairs, let me know. I have offices and contacts reletively close and can expidite help your way if needed.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user."

Theodore Roosevelt, 1913

 
Posts: 2404 | Location: Redmond WA | Registered: 04 September 2006Report This Post
Posted Hide Post
Slab, thanks, I'm south of Olympia, yes, but near the coast. Tides and high seas create our water mitigation issues, wetlands do much to mitigate them, and we didn't do too badly on that score. Our problem was the full force of the wind hit us.
 
Posts: 3997 | Location: Road Prison 36 | Registered: 05 February 2004Report This Post
Picture of --Kate
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ren,

What a story. In an odd way, the fact that the news hasn't broken on the loss of your local forest makes a point about the tree falling in the forest, with not all the everyones there to see the damage.

Still, you are there.

Take care.


---------------------------------------------------------------
"if you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got."
---------------------------------------------------------------
 
Posts: 6804 | Location: usa | Registered: 09 February 2006Report This Post
Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Loganthor:
Having trouble learning about hypothetical thinking. It sounds like divergent thinking but cant really locate the process.

I keep getting kick of to Dialectical reasoning Here

quote:
Stage Five: Dialectical Reasoning

Dialectical reasoning refers to critical thinking about problems and evaluating conflicting viewpoints. Dialectical reasoning is best applied in resolving controversial issues and assessing opposing positions. Often times, there are several possible ways of resolving questions and understanding issues, rather than one single right answer. We may have situations where information is incomplete, where many approaches and views may compete, and we have to decide which one is most reasonable based on what is known, even though there is no clear-cut solution.

Dialectical reasoning consists of moving back and forth between contrary lines of reasoning, using each to cross-examine the other. This is what juries are supposed to do in arriving at a verdict: consider arguments and evidence for and against a case, point and counterpoint. It is a process in which opposing facts and ideas are weighed and compared for the purposes of determining the best solution, resolving differences, and coming to the most reasonable conclusion based on the evidence and logic.

In a democratic and pluralistic nation such as Canada, there are a number of identified issues that reasonable people will still disagree about even after a careful analysis of both sides of the issue. On the other hand, it is important to also realize that there are certain issues that reasonable people do not disagree about; for example, all reasonable people know that racism is wrong.

Some people have difficulty with dialectical reasoning because their self-esteem depends on their being right and having their beliefs accepted by others. We all have our convictions, but the inability to consider alternative views and evidence with an open mind is a major obstacle to critical thinking. Other obstacles include:

· the tendency to form quick, impulsive opinions instead of fully developed arguments;

· reaching decisions based on what “feels right” at the moment be, and not distinguishing between knowledge and belief, or between belief and evidence, and not seeing any reason for justifying a belief;

· thinking that because some things cannot be known with absolute certainty, any judgement about the evidence is purely subjective, and defending a position with the explanation that “We all have a right to our own opinions,” as if all opinions are created equal.

When we become capable of critical thinking, we understand that although some things can never be known with certainty, some judgements are more valid than others because of their coherence, their fit with the evidence, and their usefulness. When reasoning dialectically, we are willing to consider evidence from a variety of sources, to justify our conclusions as representing the most complete, plausible or compelling understanding of an issue, based on currently available evidence -- this means abandoning “ignorant certainty” in favour of “intelligent confusion.”

Dialectical reasoning can also be described as reflective judgment: the ability to evaluate and integrate evidence, relate that evidence to a theory or opinion, and reach a conclusion that can be defended as reasonable and valid. To think dialectically, we must evaluate evidence and question assumptions, consider alternative interpretations, and stand ready to reassess our conclusions in the face of new evidence. This process works in a cycle that involves 3 basic steps:

· a thesis, which is a statement of an idea, viewpoint or position;

· an antithesis, which is the statement of an alternative and possibly contrary (conflicting) idea;

· a synthesis, which is the reconciliation of the two prior ideas in a way that integrates the best aspects of those ideas.

Ultimately, the synthesis serves as a new thesis and the cycle repeats. The synthesis typically shows that ideas that seem to conflict or to be contradictory are not necessarily so – there is unity in the diverse aspects of the issue. The reconciliation of the ideas, however, may require discarding weaker or flawed aspects of the ideas. Thus, other aspects of the ideas can be integrated in a way that builds on their strengths and more reasonable qualities.
I keep coming back to this post and wonder why no fish bit at it yet. So instead I have chosen myself to pontificate on these questions.

As far as hypothetical thinking and divergent thinking they are not the same. I see it as processes inside processes. Earlier you posted this picture:
This creative action looks and sounds much like the hypothesis process-so as a proxy to it I feel we can use this. We can see from the chart that in hypothesis testing and thinking we have both divergent and convergent thought processes going on inside hypothesis. Or as I would imagine a process to be would:
  • Divergent thinking (DV) about the problem or question that needs to be addressed.
  • CT who else has studied this problem and what conclusions did they come to as well what techniques were used.
  • CT of what the null-hypothesis will be and what technique will be used.
  • CT of the results. But then observe what statistical aspects may indicating problems including heteroscedasticity, functional form and all that other hard to remember tests.
  • DT of how to come up with solutions to the above problems.
  • CT on the relevance of the results. And come to a conclusion or...
  • DT on possible directions to further study and what questions have not cropped up with the findings of the conclusions.
  • CT to just start over...
 
Posts: 7939 | Location: Santa Barbara | Registered: 19 July 2005Report This Post
Posted Hide Post
quote:
Reframing my posts as attacks on you or anyone does not make them attacks.
Do you really want me to address this?
 
Posts: 7939 | Location: Santa Barbara | Registered: 19 July 2005Report This Post
Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Rutherford:
quote:
Reframing my posts as attacks on you or anyone does not make them attacks.
Do you really want me to address this?


I don't want anything whatsoever from you.
 
Posts: 3997 | Location: Road Prison 36 | Registered: 05 February 2004Report This Post
Posted Hide Post
In the little mythical pond, ID fish would not desire any specific actions from others unless they indicated it as such by asking questions and placing question marks in the mud.

Of course the ID fish lived by their own set of codes.
 
Posts: 7939 | Location: Santa Barbara | Registered: 19 July 2005Report This Post
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I came across Hypothesis Testing and thought it was succinct and told the story of HT well. Although Economists would use different data and thus use HT in different ways, I think it gives a nice summary of:
quote:
Five Steps in Hypothesis Testing:
1. Specify the Null Hypothesis
2. Specify the Alternative Hypothesis
3. Set the Significance Level (a)
4. Calculate the Test Statistic and Corresponding P-Value
5. Drawing a Conclusion
And for another way of using HT:
 
Posts: 7939 | Location: Santa Barbara | Registered: 19 July 2005Report This Post
Picture of Loganthor
Posted Hide Post
quote:
Five Steps in Hypothesis Testing:
1. Specify the Null Hypothesis
2. Specify the Alternative Hypothesis
3. Set the Significance Level (a)
4. Calculate the Test Statistic and Corresponding P-Value
5. Drawing a Conclusion

Wow that is a bit complicated can you put the five step in a real world thesis?


**** Disclaimer: The information in this weblog is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights. This weblog does not represent the thoughts, intentions, plans or strategies of my owner. It is solely my own personal opinion. Inappropriate comments will be deleted at the authors discretion.***

"I stand or fall on my own words."
 
Posts: 7253 | Location: PORTLAND | Registered: 07 November 2005Report This Post
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quote:
Wow that is a bit complicated can you put the five step in a real world thesis?
Well it just so happens I have done one. Accidents at Irongate
roflmao

Well I am sure that probably confused you more. I will think about your question some more and try to answer it more coherently.

But please, if any one else has a way to describe this beyond my example and the example they used in the above link, feel free...
 
Posts: 7939 | Location: Santa Barbara | Registered: 19 July 2005Report This Post
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I found another divergent thinker on the net and I found him on the local cable channel. You would think that a piece entitled applejuice would speak a lot about it but really more about wall paper and how it represents our society. Be sure to check out his other video on the important issue of how to use aluminum foil in bathrooms.
 
Posts: 7939 | Location: Santa Barbara | Registered: 19 July 2005Report This Post
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