George Lakoff

Sue you are SOOOOO unpatriotic.

That really is a great idea! Replace one set of name calling frames with another even more ridiculously shallow framing.

All we need now is for Thom to insert his 'cons' mantra. Just take the first exchange:

quote:

"Aw you liberals just hate America."

No. We love democracy and we want to return it to America.
You want a presidential dictator.

Democracy is a vague concept now and many people will say the same thing but mean a completely different thing. Even the Chinese say their system is based on a people's democracy. Every phrase says "we want to return it to America". How can it be returned to 'America' if we already have 'it'? It bases it on a set of assumptions that has not been established and then attacks the other person with presuming that he wants or think some presumed bad thing.

quote:

We love civilian control of the military and we want to return it to America.
You want to militarize America.

Then why does the liberals want to parade around ex Generals? This phrase is way presumptuous that even those that support the war somehow do not want to maintain civilian control of the military and the straw man argument of militarizing 'America' is just that a shallow excuse for a point that is meant to antagonize the other person.

I need to correct my above statement.

Ron, YOUR unpatriotic
Sue is just Unamerican.

First, I am not 'Unamerican' or even American. I am a citizen of the United States of America.

Secondly, is Sue UnAmerican or just not American?

Thirdly, it is "you are" not your!!!

Lastly, my wife will be sworn in to be that class of person on Friday. Should have some pictures up afterwards.

You vs us.
Us against them.

More of the same from minds that want to create and foster partisanship and class warfare.


Ron,
congrats to Mrs Rutherford!
Great to have her aboard.

quote:

How can we respond to conservative attacks on our patriotism?

If the question needs to asked, there must be a problem.

WTG Mrs. Rutherford.
As long as she's not from Holland...

Let's start a new frame here. We all want what we think is best for our society; we just differ in what we think is best, and/or how to get it.

I think that most people would agree, if they stopped to think, that pinning negative labels on each other does not help at all.

quote:

Originally posted by Sue N:
Let's start a new frame here. We all want what we think is best for our society; we just differ in what we think is best, and/or how to get it.

I think that most people would agree, if they stopped to think, that pinning negative labels on each other does not help at all.

Labels tend to define a "general point of view"...a way of looking at a things.

Left: change for a more just society for the majority. Right: status quo....change, if any, is to strengthen and maintain that status quo.

Within the now defunct Soviet Union, the left wanted reform..a more just society for the majority. The right, strange as it may seem, was the Communist Party...wanting no change.

Yeltsen, pro-democracy, pro-markets, was considered a "leftist" by Soviet citizens. The Communist Politboro was considered "right wing" by Soviet citizens.

Left/right kind of represent change/no change. Upset the status quo vs. maintaining it.

The terms are divisive...as are the world views themselves. Perhaps the views should be debated without the "charged" terms.

Retired Monk
"Ideology is a disease"

Perhaps it might be more realistic to talk of PTB - the powers that be - and non-PTB. But there can be periods when the PTB are working towards a more just society, until they ossify, or are replaced by those attracted by the power itself.

SueN:

quote:

Let's start a new frame here. We all want what we think is best for our societ(ies); we just differ in what we think is best, and/or how to get it.

We each need to frame our own conception of 'politics' and the political process-and then agonize within our own limits.

Whatever one comes up with, the high degree of social instituion complexity the world has achieved, and the amazing new technologies of the last century or so, lead me to reconsider whether the U.S., or Britain, or any ONE society has the 'lock' on innovation.

We tolerate each other on this site pretty well!. Progressives do. The Administration of this site is NOT a provider of security, support, OR advice. Yet WE do seem to define the news of today, in terms of tommorrow, and much luck with the new link!

I also viewed the President's news conference a few days ago, with a streaming video feed from CNN, in a window on my computer desktop. I would like to comment my opinion on a moment when the President seemed to prefer to listen, over seeing or feeling, which was telling to me. I was reminded of Thom's report and discussion of the recently researched 'reptilian brain' featur of ALL people, that seems to set a sensory priority!
The President commented his opinion supporting a greater degree of 'transparancy' in corporations. Then his posture shifted slightly as he became reserved, and as we heard on Thom's Show, his glance then shifted toward the ceiling. The President's reference to the word 'transparant' is a visual one: Mirriam Webster's Dictionary: clear enough to see through; the alternative definition in the Oxford Dictionary is: obvious, evident. After the statement, the President seemed to suffer the alternative definition in the moment, preferring to listen to the sounds of the press room for a moment before continuing.
It's good to identify with the Presidentin a small way. Even though people vary, I recall that about one third of ALL people are aural. I am of the group that 'automatically' prioritizes feelings. The third group mentioned in Thom's Book are those who 'see' first.

Congratulations to Dina.

quote:

Originally posted by Sue N:
Let's start a new frame here. We all want what we think is best for our society; we just differ in what we think is best, and/or how to get it.

I think that most people would agree, if they stopped to think, that pinning negative labels on each other does not help at all.

Sue,

After my rather limited time on this site. I have come to the conclusion that there are two very divided viewpoints here.

Personally, I don't think it matters how intelligently and courteously, we the progressives, frame our view and counter view, there will continue to be negative words in response.

Some people here have a much better way with words, but I don't think it results in the other side agreeing with him/her.

It is unfortunate that personal attacks are made, but perhaps it speaks alot about human nature (and the fact that we can all hide hundreds or thousands of miles away from each other, behind our computer screens).

The important thing, to me, is to do our best, and to give others the opportunity to do the same. Just becasue there are a few loud mouths around does not mean that everyone else should either shut up or compete with them in a race to the bottom. The harder we work at courteous, serious discussion, the more out of place they look.

quote:

Originally posted by Sue N:
The important thing, to me, is to do our best, and to give others the opportunity to do the same. Just becasue there are a few loud mouths around does not mean that everyone else should either shut up or compete with them in a race to the bottom. The harder we work at courteous, serious discussion, the more out of place they look.

'tis unfortunate that I'm sometimes a loud mouth myself. Escpecially when I feel someone is being treated unfairly.

Retired Monk
"Ideology is a disease"

Sue,

quote:

We all want what we think is best for our society

That's a big assumption you are making there; let me help you a bit.

Many here do not care about 'society'. You do, maybe, but many don't. They just care about themselves and protecting their corporate interests. And yet you speak to them as if you can actually reason with them - how is that working out for you?

People define society ('we' as opposed to 'them') differently. It ranges from just themselves, to include their family, thier friends, their tribe, their nation, the human race, to all life. Bashing people is not going to help them to extend their range. If you have given up on them, then leave them alone.

quote:

Bashing people is not going to help them to extend their range.

Pampering them isn't either.I'm not into extending anybody's range.

First of all, I'm not as arrogant as to presume my range is somehow wider than anybody else's, and second, I have noticed that the only person who can extend your range is yourself.

Third, who got bashed, exactly? As far as I can tell, I bashed noone.

Fourth, leaving those exploiting the world alone? Sounds kinda contradictory to me.

If you'll allow me the following reductio ad absurdum, what an interesting world we live in where we say "Hey you, mr. Jewish person! Leave that poor Nazi doctor alone! After all, he only wants what is best for society!"

Loki,

I think this was Sue's way of saying, just ignore those who you don't like what they say.

It is a shame that so many truly great thinkers have felt the need to leave this board, because of the level of right wing garbage which is spewed. I know in the short time I have been here, I have seen a few really great minds leave this site, a shame really.

Personally, I find the "alternative" mind set interesting. I often wonder (from a purely psychological view) what makes a person believe such strange things. You have to wonder about one's upbringing, and most likely relatively little (or no) exposure to other cultures and people.

quote:

It is a shame that so many truly great thinkers have felt the need to leave this board, because of the level of right wing garbage which is spewed.

Not just great thinkers, but spiritual thinkers. It's an entire list of people who were harassed off (right up the echelons of the board moderators!) and scattered all over the world. After that, the boards changed. The spirituality section became a token department, allowed to stay up in reminiscence of Hartmann's youth sins (Last Hours and Prophet's Way). Apparently those issues no longer hold any value to him.
I don't think it's right wing garbage per se (I have seen my share of left wing garbage as well, believe you me), as much as it is deliberate disruption. Things are slightly better than they used to be, but the trolling and watering down of threads are still everywhere, apparently unnoticed by the board moderation.