Don't we Americans ever learn from our mistakes, seems to me if your house was foreclosed on, that perhaps you might think twice before taking out a mortgage you can't afford.
Why do people buy things they can't afford, I don't understand the mentality?

quote:

Originally posted by meljomur:
Don't we Americans ever learn from our mistakes, seems to me if your house was foreclosed on, that perhaps you might think twice before taking out a mortgage you can't afford.
Why do people buy things they can't afford, I don't understand the mentality?

A lot of these people were assured that their house value would rise enough so that they could re-finance at a lowered, set interest rate before an adjusted interest rate increase would ever take place. Pure, unregulated mortgage market scam jobs.

These mortgages helped keep the economy from slowing. The U.S. economy is based on credit and deficits...not wealth creation (goods) with the purchasing power in wages to purchase them.

Retired Monk
"Ideology is a disease"

And You Thought Oil Prices Were High?

So should ours kids go to school less, to conserve on education expenditure?
How can you even compare the two?
Damn kids first they want health care, and now they want good education, what is wrong with them?

Come on Ron, you are capable of better than this.

quote:

Originally posted by polycarp:

quote:

Originally posted by meljomur:
Don't we Americans ever learn from our mistakes, seems to me if your house was foreclosed on, that perhaps you might think twice before taking out a mortgage you can't afford.
Why do people buy things they can't afford, I don't understand the mentality?

A lot of these people were assured that their house value would rise enough so that they could re-finance at a lowered, set interest rate before an adjusted interest rate increase would ever take place. Pure, unregulated mortgage market scam jobs.

These mortgages helped keep the economy from slowing. The U.S. economy is based on credit and deficits...not wealth creation (goods) with the purchasing power in wages to purchase them.

Retired Monk
"Ideology is a disease"

Poly,
I realize people took a chance, and for many years it did pay off, and I do feel very bad for people who lost their homes, just because they wanted to get a foot on the property ladder. However, I don't think you should borrow more than you can afford.
Having said that if the government helps out financial institutions for making bad decisions, than there should be a safety net for individuals too.

quote:

Originally posted by meljomur:
So should ours kids go to school less, to conserve on education expenditure?
How can you even compare the two?
Damn kids first they want health care, and now they want good education, what is wrong with them?

Come on Ron, you are capable of better than this.

Melissa, can you look past your own prejudices and look at data as data to tell a story not to run off with conclusions that are not merited.

But please tell me a business that not only gets the rate of inflation from you every year but also expects 1000 per cent more per unit output without an improvement in quality or quantity?

This just tells that we may not be getting what we should be getting for our dollars? Unless you like debt then I say we need to address these inflationary pressures.

If you are looking for suggestions then:
Increase spending on technology and other inputs that provide a marginal benefit more than labor. Decrease the bloated bureaucracy of the current system. Add more competition into the system...

Ron,

Excuse me if you think I am being a bit thick on this, but since when is public education supposed to be run as a for profit corporation? And why on earth would we want it to be?

What is the logic in comparing oil prices to public education?

Do you have kids?, god and you wonder why I am so anxious to get to the UK!

Melissa, then what happens when there is no accountability for how funds are used?

You would think that if we are paying more by 1000 percent over the rate of inflation we should be getting something for that.

I believe you said you are going to send yours to private schools? If not you should be looking at the bullying in schools now. If the Prime Minister has to address this issue on a frequent basis, then you might want to check that out.

But it is simply if prices goes up so much more than inflation and cost of living then we should question this? If you would rather throw money at the problems then that is your choice...

Ron, are you just really thick or are you so arrogant that you believe that the rest of us are? It's one or the other, man, take your pick.

I haven't noticed that private schools are particularly cheap either, unless they're run by a religious organization, in which case they're either heavily subsidized or the teachers are nuns that work for dirt or both.

Your comparison between oil and education is almost totally meaningless. The oil industry, like most extractive or manufacturing industries, is highly conducive to efficiencies from capital investment in mechanization and in economies of scale. Education isn't.

Industrial productivity is measured as more output per unit of labor input. Applied to education that would mean more students per teacher, yet everybody knows that's the exact wrong way to go to get good results! What's the most effective ratio? One-to-one! They're called tutors. That's one reason why some of those that can afford the more expensive private schools make that choice.

And your whole premise is further flawed by the nature of the normalizing factor, CPI. It's an aggregate number, an average of a "typical market basket". Some of the items in that basket will have enjoyed remarkable productivity gains through technological advance while others will not. The ones that do enjoy that advantage skew the average down making the rest appear worse by comparison. A much better comparison would be to look at other industries or activities that, like education, by their nature aren't amenable to mechanization. Picking strawberries, healthcare, or on-site home construction are some that come to mind. They aren't perfect analogies, but nothing is.

You're going to have to do better than that. We're onto you.

Man you are good. In the short time you have been here you have managed to give us a classic case offalse dichotomy.

quote:

Your comparison between oil and education is almost totally meaningless. The oil industry, like most extractive or manufacturing industries, is highly conducive to efficiencies from capital investment in mechanization and in economies of scale. Education isn't.

Boy I like that "almost totally meaningless". How vacuous can you be?

Unless you have a better gage of how prices increase then you should tell the economist that posted that information. But you have done one right. You have pointed out our present paradigm, and unless we change our dogmas then the present conditions will continue.

quote:

You're going to have to do better than that. We're onto you.

Are you saying that you won't fall for the banana in the tailpipe again?

Random,
This is just Ron's MO, I don't think he honestly believes half the crap he writes, just seems like a bored rich man, with too much time on his hands, and pretty uninteresting people in which to engage in, in his "real" life. But of course this is just my soul opininion

quote:

Originally posted by Ronald Rutherford:
Melissa, then what happens when there is no accountability for how funds are used?

You would think that if we are paying more by 1000 percent over the rate of inflation we should be getting something for that.

I believe you said you are going to send yours to private schools? If not you should be looking at the bullying in schools now. If the Prime Minister has to address this issue on a frequent basis, then you might want to check that out.

But it is simply if prices goes up so much more than inflation and cost of living then we should question this? If you would rather throw money at the problems then that is your choice...

If you want better education, costs have to go up. We need less pupils per teacher in many schools. This means an increase in cost per student. Add to that the lacking computers, scientific equipment and the like, and the cost goes up even more.

The schools have been stripped to the bare bones over past years trying to get education on the "cheap". Good education can't be done on the cheap, but it is is suitable for a career at McDonald's or Walmart. It's fine for training a population that doesn't have the cognitive skills to comprehend the political and economic system that they are born imedded in.

The accountability for the failures to properly finance education is where?

Retired Monk
Ideology is a disease"

quote:

Random,
This is just Ron's MO, I don't think he honestly believes half the crap he writes, just seems like a bored rich man, with too much time on his hands, and pretty uninteresting people in which to engage in, in his "real" life. But of course this is just my soul opininion Wink

Mel,
Don't worry, he didn't hurt my itty-wittle feelings. And you're right of course. Every libertarian I've ever run across suffers from the persistent delusion that they're the smartest person in the room. All you have to do is look at the title of this thread Ronnie started (Economics 101,201,301...). He's sees himself on a mission to educate us poor, stupid, mis-informed liberals. If only we would just listen to the obvious wisdom pouring forth from his well-worn keyboard we would attain true enlightenment.

They're a bizarre bunch all right. I should know, I spent a few years self-identifying as one of them before I came to my senses. This is a crowd that will have serious debates over whether private citizens should be allowed to carry nuclear weapons, whether we should tolerate a religion that practices human sacrifice, or whether parents actually have any moral or legal obligation to feed their children.

In economics they espouse a sort of "one size fits all" philosophy, and in their world everything is economic. They would privatize the police, the courts, and the military if they could. They believe all taxation is theft and would require the government to be run on user fees and voluntary donations.

I don't claim to be some economic genius, nor do I have the answers to all the world's problems. But I aced Macro, Micro, Money & Banking, and Engineering Econ 25 years ago. My econ professor seriously encouraged me to change majors and I actually read "Wealth of Nations" for the fun of it. Bottom line is I really do not need to be "educated" by some libertarian yahoo on an Internet forum.

So now that we've established that we don't like each other very much, let's continue the discussion, shall we?

quote:

Melissa, can you look past your own prejudices and look at data as data to tell a story not to run off with conclusions that are not merited.

Can you look past your prejudices and view the data for what it is; woefully incomplete and misleading?
For instance, does the data on the "Real" price of oil include the costs of military expenditures in the Gulf to ensure the free flow of Arabian oil?
Does it include any adjustments for the favorable tax treatment that extractive industries enjoy? My wife and I receive checks every month for oil and gas royalties that she inherited. Despite the fact that it's totally free money for us, we're allowed to deduct 15% off the gross revenue for "depletion allowance". Essentially, we get a tax write-off for depleting a natural resource.

quote:

But please tell me a business that not only gets the rate of inflation from you every year but also expects 1000 per cent more per unit output without an improvement in quality or quantity?

The health insurance industry for one.

quote:

Increase spending on technology and other inputs that provide a marginal benefit more than labor.

Suggestions? I'm not going to let you get away with vague hand-waving on this one.

Technology has been introduced into classrooms in the form of computers. The verdict is mixed. On the one hand, computers and the Internet allow teachers and students to do things that they couldn't do before. On the other, they can often be a distraction with some pupils learning more about Solitaire and Internet porn than anything else. And despite the efforts of many very smart software designers and contrary to the glossy advertising brochures, they can't replace real live teachers.

quote:

Decrease the bloated bureaucracy of the current system.

Depends entirely on which school district you're talking about. In some areas there is certainly waste and even corruption; schools are run by humans, after all. But in general the purse strings are kept by local school boards that are very sensitive to costs. On the whole, I believe this criticism is over-blown.

quote:

Add more competition into the system...

Easier said than done in many cases. I live in a rural area. There simply aren't enough students to support more than one school system. Out here we're constantly having to consolidate schools because of the declining population.

Continuing...

quote:

Man you are good. In the short time you have been here you have managed to give us a classic case offalse dichotomy.

Sure. There are more choices, but the other ones assume that you are correct. You're not.

quote:

Boy I like that "almost totally meaningless". How vacuous can you be?

Oh, I don't know. I could post a very misleading graph and make unfounded conclusions without taking into consideration any other variables...

quote:

Unless you have a better gage of how prices increase then you should tell the economist that posted that information.

The CPI is fine in general, but it can only tell you what it can tell you. It's a severe distillation of a great deal of data into one number. It can tell you things, but not what you want it to mean.

quote:

Are you saying that you won't fall for the banana in the tailpipe again?

I don't know, I've never had a banana in my tailpipe. What does that feel like?

quote:

So now that we've established that we don't like each other very much, let's continue the discussion, shall we?

RT, is this just randoms thoughts? I mean how can I say I do not like you? What basis do I have for not liking another person that I only exchanged a couple of words with? If you can not take a joke then I am sorry that I may have had fun at your expense.

quote:

The health insurance industry for one.

So there must be some reason why these two industries are experiencing this. For solving any problem we may want to look at how they are similar in structure or what market forces and incentives there is.

quote:

Continuing...

Yes, RT continue on... Nothing stopping you.

You have made plenty of descent points, but if you feel that nothing is wrong with the present system why bother with little itty-wittle me?

Carry on...

Ron,
you still never answered why you would compare public education to the oil industry?

Makes absolutely no sense.

You honestly resent, paying taxes for children's education? What about for roads, bridges? Firemen, police? Where do we draw the line on where our tax money goes? Who decides what is the best place to spend it?

Should we privatize every thing in our society? And just let the "natural" market decide where the money should go?

Like I said before Ron, I appreciate your intelligence regarding economics, but it is very dim in its scope.

I certainly don't want to live in your economic world.

Melissa, you might try: here or here...
Or just go with your assumptions that Education is in a category all to itself. Then I need to ask why ask why? But then only a government can continue to give inferior products at increasing price levels above even the base rate of inflation.

I will not answer what seems like to be rhetorical questions at the present time. Whether it is Britain's economic world or the USA, we all live in an economic world, it is only how we interpret it. Even Pol Pot could not change that...

Ron,
I am now beginning to fully understand the gerbil statement

Ron, something that occurred to me while driving across Wyoming yesterday. Mel asked why you insist on comparing public education to the oil industry and you never gave a good answer. Comparing those two industries isn't even like comparing apples to oranges -- at least apples and oranges are both fruit. It's more like comparing apples to knitting needles; a category error.

Instead, answer this one. Since a big theme in Lib/Con criticism of public education is the lack of competition (not entirely true, BTW, with charter and magnet schools in the mix) why do we see such similar price increases in higher education? After all, there is plenty of competition among colleges. I should know, I just sent my oldest off to college a couple months ago. She's a bright kid, but not an Honor student or anything. Still, she was accepted to all the schools she applied to and was getting plenty of junk mail from a lot of others as well.

So I stand by my earlier conclusion: When I look at the sectors where the price increases are outstripping inflation, education and health care in particular, I see situations where technology can potentially positively influence the outcome in terms of quality, but the nature of the beast is such that it is unrealistic to expect, or even desire for that matter, increases in productivity measured in the conventional industrial sense.

RT, I am glad that you thought about these issues more. So you agree that charter and magnet schools are a form of competition? Do you think home schooling could be competition also?

quote:

So I stand by my earlier conclusion: When I look at the sectors where the price increases are outstripping inflation, education and health care in particular, I see situations where technology can potentially positively influence the outcome in terms of quality, but the nature of the beast is such that it is unrealistic to expect, or even desire for that matter, increases in productivity measured in the conventional industrial sense.

Quality is a measurement of productivity. So this has been an interesting discussion...

quote:

RT, I am glad that you thought about these issues more. So you agree that charter and magnet schools are a form of competition? Do you think home schooling could be competition also?

As they are alternatives, of course. Sort of by definition. I think charter schools perform a more important function than just providing competition, however. They can serve as crucibles for experimentation in alternate methods of teaching and organization that, if successful, can be incorporated into the larger public school system. Also, kids are individuals and they have different learning and thinking styles. Personally, I'm a very visual thinker. I have to be able to draw a picture in my mind to fully grasp a concept. How well I can do that, and how well a concept lends itself to that kind of visualization determines how well I can learn and understand something. On the other hand, I retain verbal information very poorly. I also believe I have a mild auditory processing deficit. Anyway, someone else with the opposite situation will learn best in a completely different teaching environment than will I. So charter and magnet schools can serve a very important function in that regard.

As to home schooling. I think it's the rare parent who can do a really good job at that across the full spectrum of subject matter that needs to be taught. For instance, I would feel perfectly comfortable with math, science, and social studies but I would be fairly hopeless with literature, music, or art. I know my limitations. Not to mention that the process of teaching is itself a learned skill that not everyone can be competent in.

Again I must commend you for your willingness to look at the issues as a challenge and not a hopeless cause beyond just throwing more money at the problem.

quote:

As to home schooling. I think it's the rare parent who can do a really good job at that across the full spectrum of subject matter that needs to be taught. For instance, I would feel perfectly comfortable with math, science, and social studies but I would be fairly hopeless with literature, music, or art. I know my limitations. Not to mention that the process of teaching is itself a learned skill that not everyone can be competent in.

This is an area that technology should be able to bridge any gap in the parents gaps in knowledge. I am sure most parents that home school are not experts in all fields.

I am probably the opposite that listening or watching a lecture is better in grasping the knowledge than reading a book. But a video could be just as effective as a live person for learning.