Jason I do not want to get bogged down in this conversation, but it is extremely fascinating to me. What I am trying to do by my comments and questions is to uncover WHY you think like you think, not necessarily create substantive hypotheses for either of us to unravel.
My first inclination based on your various postings was to guess that perhaps you have had some "bad life experiences" and that has altered your perception of reality via bitterness. Thus, CMJ views the world through different eyes than I do. I suspect that bitterness is the reason that many people on this board are hostile to ideas that I and other conservatives postulate (I won't mention names, Bill).
If you think about it, people reach conclusions about their world-views based on experience first, followed by research, followed by blind faith in "truths" espoused by primary leaders in their life. That's how I see it. I pinged you on the "experience" angle first, just to get under the covers. Have you had bad experiences? Some of your responses seem to indicate that you have - you refer to your business background, and you refer to looking out the window and seeing small businesses failing in Rochester NY.
Thus, these experiences, based on your next comments, are merely a confirmation of what you already, at your heart-of-hearts, believe. That is - you believe the game is rigged (based on empirical data and research over the years etc.) - and then you see businesses failing (for example), thus you conclude that the game is, indeed, rigged.
Question becomes....WHY did you begin your research in the first place? Did you fail (experience), wonder about that failure, and thus begin that research? Keep in mind that I am leaving the definition of "failure" quite open-ended. This "failure" could have been something as simple as ... losing a debate back in college in the dorm hallway and feeling a bit disturbed that some of your core beliefs were so easily challenged. This might have led you on a quest to achieve this knowledge of "why things work like they do."
This is but a single thread of this fascinating discussion.
I might ask this. Have you at any time, in your life, specifically experienced something that you can prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, was a direct result of "the game being rigged"?
If you cannot, then I am tempted to categorize your "research" and "independent thought" to simple everyday fantasy. One trap that conspiracy theorists fall into (I am not YET lumping you into that overall group, understand, I am simply categorizing your ideas in that way for now) is that it is tempting to consider that they are "failing in life" (depending on their own definition of "failing") due to some outside force beyond their control. It is comforting. It explains things. The world makes more sense.
If you CAN identify something, then I might ask...who cares? Your theories about why things work and the rigging of the game are so lofty, that they are impossible for anyone to debate them. No matter what I answer, you can quickly dismiss my answers: "You didn't research enough." "You are being lied to." Or even..."You're one of Them."
So who cares, Jason? Even IF you are 100% correct, and economic life as we know it is gamed by a few players...what would anyone do about it? Go to war? You want to build and launch a nuke on the WTO? Do you actually believe that we as a people can rise up and overthrow it? Even if we could, how long would it last before a new crop of Them would come along and stomp it down?
See, once you open that box, you can't really go back Jason. Now, your comments about keeping the inheritance tax alive, or raising taxes to 85% on the wealthiest Americans, or changing laws so that WalMart is easier to unionize....none of that matters! The game is out of our control!
You write:
quote:
Your wealth is being stolen from you right under your nose, and the system is set up in such way that makes it very hard to notice. Indeed, it would be impossible for you to notice until it's too late
"Too late"? What is the looming threat, Jason? Total domination? A Saddam-like empire? You can't say things like this without being more definitive. And saying things like "your wealth is being stolen and you don't know it"...huh? How can I disagree with you? You have rigged the conversation so that there is not real debate. This is classic conspiracy theorist mentality.
I don't think that way, thus, MY experiences and my core beliefs steer my conclusions in different directions. I look at a business that failed and my first inclination is to blame the person who started the business....not some factor out of his control. I look at a family that MUST have 2 people working 70 hour weeks just to maintain a lifestyle, and I say "change your lifestyle" or make some other choices. I see my out-of-work brother in law, who keeps submitting his resumes all over town and doesn't get the work, and I know where he is making the wrong choice, and he can't see it....
I hope you see my points. To sum them up, they are
- I cannot debate you on this matter, because you have framed the discussion in such a way as to make it impossible.
- I would still love to debate some of this, because it is fascinating.
- I think you have a lot to learn about what motivates people and how freedom in a marketplace really operates.
The point, as I understand it ProudCon, is that the "free market" is an illusion, just as "democratic peace" is an illusion. The importance of becoming aware of something like the Bilderberg group is to underline that concerted decisions are made, in a centralized kind of way, to effect world peace (or war) as well as, or because of an underlying economic policy, held by the elite few who are invited to the meetings. In a sense, it underlines your (and my) status as a cog in a wheel. Even the most earnest capitalists at Thom's place won't be sitting at the Bilderberg table ... Granted, they get some of the crumbs that fall to the floor, ... as long as they tow the line, and do not become expendable.
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"Bilderberg is a way of bringing together politicians, industrialists, financiers and journalists. Politics should involve people who aren't politicians.
"We make a point of getting along younger politicians who are obviously rising, to bring them together with financiers and industrialists who offer them wise words. It increases the chance of having a sensible global policy."
"Does going help your career?" I asked. "Oh yes," he said. He added: "Your new understanding of the world will certainly help your career.""
"Which sounds like a conspiracy," I said.
"Crap!" said Lord Healey. ""Idiocy! Crap! I've never heard such crap! That isn't a conspiracy! That is the world. It is the way things are done. And quite rightly so.
"But I will tell you this. If extremists and leaders of militant groups believe that Bilderberg is out to do them down, they're right. We are. We are against Islamic fundamentalism, for instance, because it's against democracy."
"Isn't Bilderberg's secrecy against democracy, too?" I asked. "We aren't secret," he snapped. "We're private.
"Nobody is going to speak freely if they're going to be quoted by ambitious and prurient journalists like you who think it'll help your career to attack something that you have no knowledge of.""
The tri-lateral commission was also part of Carter's legacy through Z'ig Brezinski, so their altruistic motives may have been corrupted by a mole; about that time? I don't know, another story. The Bilderberg gang were working since '54 so they've been corrupted too, you know ronald wilson reagan is 666, in numerical notation. [and with a cipher of 100 in numerology it's 1984]
Blaise Pascal Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. Pensees
Posts: 2917 | Location: Sverige | Registered: 21 June 2005
Interesting. So, again...an "elite" few of the world's most powerful ("rich") get together once a year to strategize on things they agree on.
How is that ruling the world? Or do we really mean that they "rule the world"?
Furthermore, how does this affect whether I close this new piece of business today, so that I can be awarded my Xmas bonus and buy my kid the miniature electric Jeep he wants?
My first inclination based on your various postings was to guess that perhaps you have had some "bad life experiences" and that has altered your perception of reality via bitterness. Thus, CMJ views the world through different eyes than I do. I suspect that bitterness is the reason that many people on this board are hostile to ideas that I and other conservatives postulate (I won't mention names, Bill).
I agree. France had this issue during times of revolution. When people became so bitter about not eating and having reasonable shelter or their collective needs being taken care of they revolted... and as the story goes... heads rolled. When revolutionary Americans became bitter about the inflation of prophet of UK corporations based on influence of the elites in the Crown... there was war. Not the kind of war that could be played out with precision of control but a war that forever changed the map of the world and formed the United States of America.
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That is - you believe the game is rigged (based on empirical data and research over the years etc.) - and then you see businesses failing (for example), thus you conclude that the game is, indeed, rigged.
Again I agree. For instance, when I've played my children at chess or monopoly or other games my children have a reason to believe it's rigged. Not because I've cheated but based on their lack of experience and knowlege. Now, what if part of the game was to also control the information that could help them "win" or at least find a pursuit of happiness? What if I was in charge of providing substandard schooling, care, and making a gauntlet of debt for them to have a higher education to be equal to me when playing whatever game. Could this be construed as "rigging" the game of Life even though well... no one is explicitly talking about it and nothing morally has been done wrong. I mean... how's the proverb go... you've gotta loose to learn how to win?
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This "failure" could have been something as simple as ... losing a debate back in college in the dorm hallway and feeling a bit disturbed that some of your core beliefs were so easily challenged.
If that's the furthest your psychoanalytical repetoire goes then it explains a lot about how you analyze and your lack of humanity in understanding others.
People learn through a series of crash courses. Usually people believe they are capable and equipped and "failure" is the incident that suggests they were not capable or equipped or something of an external influence sabatoged. I mean, that's what I here from Cons that claim welfare sabotages their economy dreams. As individuals go people reconsider their values when they max out their credit cards from mortgage debt when their job has been off shored to slave labor. They start rethinking everything... their religious dogma, their poltical stance and think about the lies they were told that fell like a badly constructed house of cards waiting for the mildest breeze.
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simple everyday fantasy.
Yes, that pretty much sums up NeoCon logic.
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KATE: The point, as I understand it ProudCon, is that the "free market" is an illusion, just as "democratic peace" is an illusion.
I don't know if I agree with that Kate. Our home is a democratic place where we regard our children as beings with importance and care and eventual peers if not already. We live in MORE peace then those pushing hierarchy mentality and subvertive subjective arbitrary policy to alignments of special moral influence.
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The tri-lateral commission was also part of Carter's legacy through Z'ig Brezinski, so their altruistic motives may have been corrupted by a mole; about that time? I don't know, another story.
Can we really state that any presidency had an altruistic motive? I mean, Carter annihilated public education with political wrangling for funding his election process. No matter how much you like Unions... once they become federal as an cabinet entity they are just as likely to corrupt democracy as a special influence as any lobbying party. Jimmy Carter... are you for real?
I mean that in a sincere sweet overtone... loving the administration of Carter is like loving Reagan... someone is smoking some dope somewhere.
The light at the end of the tunnel... may be you. ~ Aerosmith, Big Ones
Networking, sphere's of influence, Carnegie Method... Napolean Hill, How to Think and Grow Rich... I'm seeing some intersections of paths that lead to greed...
I mean, who says it has to be Pinky and the Brain "rule the world" it can be less malicious... let's not rule the world... just use it to continue to be the top guys and keep the club elite... it's why everyone wants to get in and why no one hurts us on the chance and shot they could be like us.
It's a elite group mentality thing. And often people are suckered into it before realizing what part of their soul and humanity they sold out to get there.
PC no worry... many on here figured that out long ago... the part of your soul you've sold out isn't something you can buy back... that's the trick you haven't learned... you see it "irrelevenat" today... some day you may not.
The light at the end of the tunnel... may be you. ~ Aerosmith, Big Ones
Your entire response is a complete doge from the institutional analysis I invited you to engage in. I understand that what I am expressing is difficult to comprehend (and even take seriously), and this forum does not provide the proper medium in which to learn it. The movie "The Matrix" is not such a crazy metaphor for what is going on -- and the red pill is very hard to swallow. Some people need to keep themselves asleep as accepting the truth is too overwhelming (ignorance is bliss!). I can accept that. I can also say that you are correct, in that there is no way for you to respond to me here; unless you go do the research yourself my unconventional expressions will continue to sound like they come from Mars. In that, I do not wish to debate you on this, I only wish to invite you to do some research on what is going on. You've blown off every offing of information I've tried to feed you without even taking some time to read it and contemplate it. With that approach, you'll learn nothing about my perspective from anything I say, and no debate will be worth either of our valuable time.
All that being said, and out of respect for you, I will respond to your questions bellow as best I can.
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Jason I do not want to get bogged down in this conversation, but it is extremely fascinating to me. What I am trying to do by my comments and questions is to uncover WHY you think like you think, not necessarily create substantive hypotheses for either of us to unravel.
And there lies the problem, you're focused on figuring me out rather than understanding the concepts I'm sharing. This is why I invite you to do research for yourself, because I can't spoon feed you. You'll just keep analyzing the spoon instead of eating the food.
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My first inclination based on your various postings was to guess that perhaps you have had some "bad life experiences" and that has altered your perception of reality via bitterness. Thus, CMJ views the world through different eyes than I do. I suspect that bitterness is the reason that many people on this board are hostile to ideas that I and other conservatives postulate (I won't mention names, Bill).
Ah, an old trick of the propagandists, offer up emotionally potent over-simplifications and use emotionally negative monikers to describe the messenger to distract anyone from engaging in institutional analysis resulting from the message itself. I must be bitter, therefore I must have an axe to grind, therefore nothing I say can possibly have any merit! Don't take my word for anything, look it all up yourself. Start with government documents dating back to the WWII time period.
As to where I come from, it's a pretty positive place. I grew up somewhat poor (but not as poor as others), but had a fantastic Mother who made the best of things and raised me with a strong moral fiber (in the Catholic tradition). I had some difficulty in school, mostly because I was way too smart for it, and ended up in a very progressive college that finally could nurture my learning style. It is there that I was first removed from the Matrix and began to see and experience the world my upbringing never showed me. I went three years without TV or mainstream press, and instead filled my time reading and hearing about the world through alternative means (including the first hand accounts of fellow students who'd traveled to places I never even knew existed).
Anyway, that's a very short history of things. Today, I'm a successful software engineer in the upper middle class income range. I own a beautiful home with a large yard, drive a sports car, have a son and a dog. I live the "good" life. It's also a wasteful life. Once I got to where I thought I was going, I realized how void things really are. I don't own anything really, my stuff owns me. Not only was I able to watch how people treat me differently now that I have money to burn, I also became aware through volunteer work how many others work so much harder than I do and don't even have a tenth of what I do. Since my volunteer work usually involves children, I see first hand the devastating effects poverty has on them (and thus our future).
It goes back to my childhood really. My Mother is a very beautiful woman. She raised her kids all by herself. Being aware of our limited resources, I was always perplexed by one thing. See, she constantly received offers of marriage form some very wealthy men. She could have lived in a mansion and provided everything to us just by accepting one of those offers. As a kid, I never understood why she didn't do it. Her only answer, "I did not love any of them." That was one hell of a lesson for me, but it took until adulthood to get. My Mother was never for sale. And she tought me the true meaning of wealth.
I'm ranting now. I'm not bitter, I just have an empathy for humans past on to me from my Mother. I have a deep sense of justice and it has caused me to learn everything I can about the nature of the human experience. It has driven my political beliefs to be sure, but it has never caused me to be closed to ideas. I've gone through many incarnations of beliefs, and I was even once a free market advocate as you are now.
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If you think about it, people reach conclusions about their world-views based on experience first, followed by research, followed by blind faith in "truths" espoused by primary leaders in their life. That's how I see it. I pinged you on the "experience" angle first, just to get under the covers. Have you had bad experiences? Some of your responses seem to indicate that you have - you refer to your business background, and you refer to looking out the window and seeing small businesses failing in Rochester NY.
Thus, these experiences, based on your next comments, are merely a confirmation of what you already, at your heart-of-hearts, believe. That is - you believe the game is rigged (based on empirical data and research over the years etc.) - and then you see businesses failing (for example), thus you conclude that the game is, indeed, rigged.
I do not confirm my beliefs by what I see around me (the Map is not the Territory). As I said, if I did I would believe as you do, that everything is just fine. My town is booming (although with multinationals, which was my point that you seem to have misinterpreted). My beliefs come from studying the structure in place (defined by the documents that put them in place), reading about the experiences of others, and contemplating the relationship between those experiences and the system in which they occurred.
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Question becomes....WHY did you begin your research in the first place? Did you fail (experience), wonder about that failure, and thus begin that research? Keep in mind that I am leaving the definition of "failure" quite open-ended. This "failure" could have been something as simple as ... losing a debate back in college in the dorm hallway and feeling a bit disturbed that some of your core beliefs were so easily challenged. This might have led you on a quest to achieve this knowledge of "why things work like they do."
Still trying to paint me as some pessimistic bitter hothead with an axe to grind? Only failure (however defined) could have lead me to believe as I do? Why do you think this? Why can't the fruits of my success have lead me to learn more about why I succeeded? Why can't pure curiosity have lead to it? And why do you see my beliefs as negative anyway? I have a positive vision of what the World can be, which is why I see the need for improvement; it's not as positive as I know it can be. Only a true pessimist would surrender to the way things are and see no way to change it!
BTW - The small tech business which I helped to build (but am no longer associated with) is one of the very few still standing and it was profitable all along and still is to this day (as opposed to those that merely existed with investment money and no plan for profitability and thus crashed a horrible death). It was a positive experience for me, and the memories remain some of my fondest.
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This is but a single thread of this fascinating discussion.
I agree
quote:
I might ask this. Have you at any time, in your life, specifically experienced something that you can prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, was a direct result of "the game being rigged"?
Wal-Mart is a very good example. It is a wealth vacuum, especially when it comes to small towns. It destroys a town's ability to sustain itself, and makes it dependent on Wal-Mart. But telling you this is meaningless, you've been well programmed to avoid contemplating why this is the case, and I can't spoon feed you here. You'll have to find out for yourself, as my attempts to explain it to you have fallen upon deaf ears.
quote:
If you cannot, then I am tempted to categorize your "research" and "independent thought" to simple everyday fantasy. One trap that conspiracy theorists fall into (I am not YET lumping you into that overall group, understand, I am simply categorizing your ideas in that way for now) is that it is tempting to consider that they are "failing in life" (depending on their own definition of "failing") due to some outside force beyond their control. It is comforting. It explains things. The world makes more sense.
Ah, call me a conspiracy theorist, planting that thought in other's minds, then immediately deny calling me one. I love your technique. Are even aware of it, or are you just that programmed? Calling someone a conspiracy theorist is just a way of blocking institutional analysis. There is nothing conspiratorial about what I say, and all the data is out there for you to read and make up your own mind. I've sighted some sources, and I invite you to seek out more. But you refuse to engage in any analysis, so naturally what I'm saying will sound crazy. The idea that the world was round was once a crazy idea. But seamen knew all along that it was.
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If you CAN identify something, then I might ask...who cares? Your theories about why things work and the rigging of the game are so lofty, that they are impossible for anyone to debate them. No matter what I answer, you can quickly dismiss my answers: "You didn't research enough." "You are being lied to." Or even..."You're one of Them."
You didn't research at all! You haven't even demonstrated an attempt to, nor tried to share your thoughts as a result of any research. And you're right, if all you do is respond this way without having done any research, there is no way you and I can debate anything, because you can't debate what you don't understand and I can't teach you in this forum.
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So who cares, Jason? Even IF you are 100% correct, and economic life as we know it is gamed by a few players...what would anyone do about it? Go to war? You want to build and launch a nuke on the WTO? Do you actually believe that we as a people can rise up and overthrow it? Even if we could, how long would it last before a new crop of Them would come along and stomp it down?
Your emotionally potent over-simplifications are getting old. There are so many things we can do, and alternative systems we could build. It's all our creation in the first place, so we can re-create it if we want. Education and citizen involvement is the first step. Had you read any of the books I've suggested, you'd at least be aware of some of the structures that could be if citizens would advocate for them.
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See, once you open that box, you can't really go back Jason. Now, your comments about keeping the inheritance tax alive, or raising taxes to 85% on the wealthiest Americans, or changing laws so that WalMart is easier to unionize....none of that matters! The game is out of our control!
Now that's pessimistic! Why do you feel so out of control? Is that why you believe as you do? Because you think you're just a victim of circumstances and all you can do is live with it?
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You write:
quote:
quote:Your wealth is being stolen from you right under your nose, and the system is set up in such way that makes it very hard to notice. Indeed, it would be impossible for you to notice until it's too late
"Too late"? What is the looming threat, Jason? Total domination? A Saddam-like empire? You can't say things like this without being more definitive. And saying things like "your wealth is being stolen and you don't know it"...huh? How can I disagree with you? You have rigged the conversation so that there is not real debate. This is classic conspiracy theorist mentality.
Avoiding that institutional analysis again, I see. What do you know about Hati? Hati is a good example of "too late." It has been totally robbed of almost all of its wealth. It is now hopelessly dependent on others to support it, and desperately poor.
America is much more vast and wealthy than Hati ever was, so "too late" may not come until it is your grandchildren experiencing it. But America's wealth is being stolen: every indicator demonstrates that from our trade deficit, to our treasury deficit, to consumer debt -- America is bleeding. It's not bleeding because it has to, it's bleeding because our system is set up to allow any foreigner to come and take what they please from us. That bleeding can be stopped in a second with the stroke of a pen (resulting from citizen pressure to change the laws which encourage the bleeding). I suggest you start with a closer look at your own life. How much of your capital increases in value, and how much of it decreases in value? An honest look will reveal that outside of a 401K (or other stock investments) or home investment, most of your capital goes down the drain on deposable goods and services (it would be a good exercise for you to write it all down and add up the numbers, you'll be quite surprised how much you loose). Of course, when its "too late" your home will be worthless and your 401K will be gone. Can you think of some of the things you could have invested in? Have you ever contemplated what wealth really is, and how to really build it for yourself and your family and community?
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I don't think that way, thus, MY experiences and my core beliefs steer my conclusions in different directions. I look at a business that failed and my first inclination is to blame the person who started the business....not some factor out of his control. I look at a family that MUST have 2 people working 70 hour weeks just to maintain a lifestyle, and I say "change your lifestyle" or make some other choices. I see my out-of-work brother in law, who keeps submitting his resumes all over town and doesn't get the work, and I know where he is making the wrong choice, and he can't see it....
Again, I tried to explain this to you, but you don't comprehend it. It doesn't matter how you or I see anything. It matters what the system is, and what results are being produced by that system. I'm not talking about an individual business failing or succeeding here or there (as that'll happen regardless of the system), or a single person looking for work (and whose personal failings are preventing it) -- it's much more complicated than that, and those anecdotes are just distractions to avoid institutional analysis.
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I hope you see my points. To sum them up, they are
- I cannot debate you on this matter, because you have framed the discussion in such a way as to make it impossible.
I haven't framed anything, I've presented information that you can't debate until you go and learn about for yourself first.
quote:
- I would still love to debate some of this, because it is fascinating.
Join the book exchange that PeeWee and I are doing, I would love your input. And since each member is reading a book of the other's choosing, a real debate can occur based on knowing the information the other is trying to convey.
quote:
- I think you have a lot to learn about what motivates people and how freedom in a marketplace really operates.
I know how the marketplace really operates (and it's not free for you and me).
I know how the marketplace would operate in the free market theory, and I know what motivates people. Those ideas are irrelevant to my analysis -- but you'd have to learn some of the material I present to you to understand that. [/quote]
Proudcon: how does this affect whether I close this new piece of business today, so that I can be awarded my Xmas bonus and buy my kid the miniature electric Jeep he wants?
No effect whatsoever, as noted earlier ...
quote:
Even the most earnest capitalists at Thom's place won't be sitting at the Bilderberg table ... Granted, they get some of the crumbs that fall to the floor, ... as long as they tow the line, and do not become expendable.
Have a blessed Christmas, Proud Con.
"The hand that erases writes the true thing." ~Meister Eckhart
Posts: 8052 | Location: usa | Registered: 29 February 2004
I might ask this. Have you at any time, in your life, specifically experienced something that you can prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, was a direct result of "the game being rigged"?
How bout the massive out flowing of jobs to low wage countries courtsey of NAFTA & GATT and other "free trade" agreements? These systematically rig the game IN FAVOR of Multi-nationals (and to the detriment of the average worker)and is in fact legislation implemented at the beheast of those same multi-nationals.
Israeli, then why do we still have a 5% unemployment rate?
This is another area where institutional analysis would help you understand the lies you believe. The unemployment rate is presented as if it tells how many people are out of work. It's part of how government lies to its citizens.
The rate does not reveal how many people are out of work, it only reveals how many people are collecting unemployment insurance compared to how many people have jobs. Unemployment insurance only lasts 6 months, and once it runs out for a person that person is no longer counted in the statistic.
We could have 50% of the people without work, and still maintain a 1% unemployment rate under the system that configures that statistic.
What is even more gross, when we were really bleeding jobs a few years ago, congress refused to extend unemployment insurance because they knew that if they did it would have increased the number they use to convince us everything is fine.
Jason, don't get me wrong. I am not trying to "paint" you as anything. Just proffering up one side of what I can see. I admitted early on that this was all a small slice of reality. I am flirting with a few responses to see what else I can uncover, and you seem to be willing to play along.
Don't forget that this forum is VERY difficult to engage in meaningful dialog. If we were sitting face to face in a big corporation's bar in Rochester, we would cover this same territory in about 10 minutes.
So please, cool down and don't quit on me. I am not trying to insult you, but engage you. If you follow the dialog, I am still trying to understand some basics about your belief system. Notice, I said I am trying to understand you...not trying to understand the various World Powers and Systems and how they work.
So again: your hypothesis seems to be that the game is rigged so that the vast majority of the wealth ends up in the hands of the few, and that the rest of us work for Them, and that we are all a lot poorer than we should be...or would be....if the game wasn't rigged.
Furthermore, I and others like me are all willing pawns, and we are actually miserable, we just don't know it.
Am I painting you into a corner, or is this accurate?
EDIT
I am starting to wonder if you are genuinely interested in a debate.
See, once you open that box, you can't really go back Jason. Now, your comments about keeping the inheritance tax alive, or raising taxes to 85% on the wealthiest Americans, or changing laws so that WalMart is easier to unionize....none of that matters! The game is out of our control!
Now that's pessimistic! Why do you feel so out of control? Is that why you believe as you do? Because you think you're just a victim of circumstances and all you can do is live with it?
If you will notice, I am painting a pessimistic view of life based upon YOUR philosophy, not mine. That is...if you are right, then none of us have hope. If I am right, we still have choices and we still can make what we want out of our lives.
By the way, you seem quite hung up on whether you believe my debating style to be "fair". I am not sure why this is. You yourself utilize many tricks in your style, without regard to whether they are "fair" in this exchange.
For example, you say this (not for the first time):
quote:
The idea that the world was round was once a crazy idea. But seamen knew all along that it was.
Ah, the old "the world was once known to be flat" method of pigeonholing your opponent. A favorite trick of liberal "thinkers."
This is closely related to the old "the world was once known to be the center of the universe" method. What the hell does this have to do with our debate? Do you always accept every whacko theory you hear, based on this idealogy? Just because there were some once universal "truths" or theories that have been disproven scientifically, doesn't mean that every theory is valid. That's totally illogical, isn't it?
The unemployment rate is presented as if it tells how many people are out of work. It's part of how government lies to its citizens.
....and this is another favorite response of yours. Jason, the government cannot lie about these figures forever. Sooner or later it will become evident that people are without gainful employment:
- we will see welfare roles expand - we will see people rioting - we will see people starving
Month after month after month after month, the employment figures stay relatively steady. That can't happen if the numbers aren't mostly true.
ProudCon, that first post of yours is pure trolling.Instead of disputing his claim, you started claiming he wasn't too bright because bad experiences had warped his view. Good try at misdirection.
"No one ever went broke underestimating the American people."
PT Barnum
Posts: 1148 | Location: Repentant States of America | Registered: 28 November 2003
And this response is pure trolling. Either engage in the dialog or butt out. No offense, but this is a "continuing" discussion. I don't have to answer to you.
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