Isn't it a disgrace that this is possible in a country that has more than enough money to keep a Space Shuttle program? A country in which the television commercial time during the last episode of Friends cost $ 2.000.000 per 40 seconds?
<Miles>
Posted
The Betrayal of Work: How Low-Wage Jobs Fail 30 Million Americans ~~> Beth Shulman
I was going to add something but I don't think I could top that.
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
Posts: 8264 | Location: Fl | Registered: 05 July 2001
Nothing, they lay in doorways with needles sticking out of their arms.
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
Posts: 8264 | Location: Fl | Registered: 05 July 2001
Come on guys (gal) aren't you a little hard on Miles. We all know that the great United States of Netherlands is a bastion of egalitarian utopia.
But I just have one question for Miles. Does everyone get paid the same minimum wage no matter what work they do or what their status is.
On other thought nope, he has been awfully critical of us damn yanks lately.
OOOOOps, I even looked it up.
quote:
bastion One entry found for bastion. Main Entry: bas·tion Pronunciation: 'bas-ch&n Function: noun Etymology: Middle French, from Old Italian bastione, augmentative of bastia fortress, derivative from dialect form of bastire to build, of Germanic origin; akin to Old High German besten to patch 1 : a projecting part of a fortification 2 : a fortified area or position 3 : something that is considered a stronghold : BULWARK - bas·tioned /-ch&nd/ adjective
Disclaimer: I like Miles and Andger is a friend of mine although when I met him in Amsterdam, he told me it wasn't a very nice city. I met Usha there as well and she was a delight. I've been there a couple times and I thought it was an interesting city. My previous comment was a little rough and I didn't mean to disrespect my friends.
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
Posts: 8264 | Location: Fl | Registered: 05 July 2001
It's been a long time since I earned minimum wage, back when I was a teenager and just entering the workforce. I've always considered minimum wage as a starting point. And possibly, that's how it used to be? One problem might be that nowadays too many get stuck and aren't able to move past the starting point, for lack of opportunies, for lack of education or skills, and maybe because there's been a change in how we as a society view things. I have no problem minimum wage for teenagers just starting out, for the home maker that just wants a little side job, etc... but it is terribly difficult for a working family to make it long term when the breadwinners make minimum wage, especially if there are no health benefits which is often the case with minimum wage jobs. These people live on the brink. And yes, it is shameful in comparison to the dollars spent for a 40 second advertsing spot during a Friends episode.
------------------------------------ We cannot control the evil tongues of others; but a good life enables us to disregard them.
Posts: 1855 | Location: here and now | Registered: 22 September 2005
How much do you pay unskilled workers with no experience in the Netherlands?
Yet, they're not all unskilled, some even have college degrees and, as Lisa said, even after a good number of working-years they still get minimum wage and earn about $7,000 or $8,000 a year below state poverty line. We're talking about people in public service jobs, such as teachers, hospital staff etc, people who make sure our buildings are clean, who drive our kids' schoolbuses, public transportation, people whom we take for granted but are actually indisposable to our society and our (and our children's) well-being. For these people, (and we're talking 30 million, almost twice the total number of inhabitants of the Netherlands) even the slightest set-back, such as illness, or injury can cause them to be thrown off and lose everything. Sometimes these people work 2 fulltime jobs, have no time to spend with their family and are struggling to make ends meet. Many are homeless, with 2 fulltime jobs. And minimum wage is pre-tax.
People 'manage' cos they have to. It's surviving, not living. I find it 'surprising' to say the very least that when a non-American addresses this issue, others critisise 'his' country instead of actually addressing the point of the posting. Because one does not live in the US one is not to speak of it's problems? Are we all suppose to stick to our borders and not care about stuff that goes on on the other side of the world? Are we not suppose to be multi-lingual and follow international news as well as the local news? (Or even any news??) This leads me to believe that people do not want to hear about it, likely this is why there's been no change for years. I'm not critisising, btw, it's an observation, and I could be wrong.
As for the Netherlands, this particular situation isn't as bad as it is in the US NOW, but we're surely heading in the same direction. Lots of single mothers on welfare unable to make ends meet, one-income families struggling to get by. We recently bought a property but this won't be possible for a lot of people in the coming years. It's not Utopia (as a few people so eloquently put). It's a small country with it's political leaders allowing it to be run over by the US. Welfare, Healthcare, childcare, minimum wages, we're heading in the same direction as the US, as they're 'leading by example'.
But seeing injustice in another part of the world doesn't mean one thus automatically glorifies one's own part of the world, at least I don't.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: usha,
Posts: 1927 | Location: pending | Registered: 18 December 2004
The reason I posted it is that one main focus of the book I quoted is on health care.
Health care in Holland used to be easily affordable, even fot those on minimum. However, here, too, things are moving rapidly towards a system in which making money is the one thing that counts, and any sense of humanity is eliminated by a combination of intolerance from our government, who in my view are headed towards a climate like Germany in the late '20s / early '30s, and large corporate control over basically everything that is part of our daily life, including health care.
Personally I feel that putting health care in the hands of corporate super structures that are out to do just ONE thing is an oscenity, but evidently, our government and the people who vote for them don't see this as a problem. Which is why, especially under people on minimum wage, it's now starting to be customary to NOT be insured (which is, btw, a crime, and will be fined (!)) or to be insured for the lowest possible prize, which means they will NOT be insured for things like dental.
Great. Thank you guys.
BTW> certain people might want to take extra notice of the fact that I'm not too proud of Holland in this respect, so any attempt to ad hom me or my country on this issue will only lead to affirmative nodding on my part. You might also want to take notice of the fact that I feel the problems described in my inital 2 posts are global.
On a related note I would like to extend a great thank you to our resident republican voters, you know, the guys who maintained complete radio silence with regards to Bush's admission last week that the fact that no WMD's had been found raises serious questions about whether or not the loss of (American) life in Iraq had been worth it, but now feel it's nicely apporpriate to start a yelling campaign, not about the acual topic mind you, no; in stead we are witness here to a classic case of character assassination.
Apparently these good good people and proud inhabitants of the Home of the Brave have not considered the fact that NO actual contentual remarks have been provided might be seen as proof to the fact that they have nothing of substance to say on the subject...
Well done guys!
This message has been edited. Last edited by: <Miles>,
I think it's idiotic to dismiss someone's thoughts/opinions/critiques/feedback merely based on their location of residence. Talk about isolationists!
America has imposed itself on enough of this planet to qualify all of Earth's citizens as its critics. If Miles' posting holds no merit, then address it directly rather than merely killing the messenger.
Gnarlodious: You sure do a lot of bitching for someone who doesn't even live here.
quote:
PeeWee: How much do you pay unskilled workers with no experience in the Netherlands?
quote:
Sawdust: Nothing, they lay in doorways with needles sticking out of their arms.
quote:
RR: Come on guys (gal) aren't you a little hard on Miles. We all know that the great United States of Netherlands is a bastian of egalitarian utopia.
But I just have one question for Miles. Does everyone get paid the same minimum wage no matter what work they do or what their status is.
On other thought nope, he has been awfully critical of us damn yanks lately.
So, who cares about those on minimum wage; there obviously defaulted in some way or they wouldn't be there. How dare an outsider bring up issues a lot easier dealt with by denial. Is that right?
Wow!...talk about some bad Karma there...
Ever heard the saying "What goes around, comes around?"
Blessings,
eley
"Sweet dreams and flying machines in pieces on the ground"--Sweet Baby James
Posts: 1979 | Location: Texas | Registered: 21 August 2004
How dare an outsider bring up issues a lot easier dealt with by denial.
The denial is there no matter who brings up what. Deflection merely gets a trifle easier if the issue can be trampled by some non-content "about" a country foreign and obscure...
I wonder what a bastian is, though.
Posts: 2736 | Location: Andijvie | Registered: 25 June 2002
The denial is there no matter who brings up what. Deflection merely gets a trifle easier if the issue can be trampled by some non-content "about" a country foreign and obscure...
So true Andger.
Miles, an outsider? I think he's been here longer than me.
eley
"Sweet dreams and flying machines in pieces on the ground"--Sweet Baby James
Posts: 1979 | Location: Texas | Registered: 21 August 2004
Originally posted by LisaP: It's been a long time since I earned minimum wage, back when I was a teenager and just entering the workforce. I've always considered minimum wage as a starting point. And possibly, that's how it used to be? One problem might be that nowadays too many get stuck and aren't able to move past the starting point, for lack of opportunies, for lack of education or skills, and maybe because there's been a change in how we as a society view things. I have no problem minimum wage for teenagers just starting out, for the home maker that just wants a little side job, etc... but it is terribly difficult for a working family to make it long term when the breadwinners make minimum wage, especially if there are no health benefits which is often the case with minimum wage jobs. These people live on the brink. And yes, it is shameful in comparison to the dollars spent for a 40 second advertsing spot during a Friends episode.
That not only has been my experience in the workforce but is also what I see in the market place. Although there is a growing gap between those that have the most desirable skills and those that don't, they then compete with immigrants (both legal and illegal). Only about 1% of our work force is now earning under $6.00/hour and with many in the categories that you mentioned.
But if there is social inequalities then minimum wage laws (living wages) do not solve these problems.
Posts: 7939 | Location: Santa Barbara | Registered: 19 July 2005
Andger, I am not sure of your point. I corrected my error and gave the definition. While I appreciate the correction of my writing, I am not sure if too many here really want to get into an editing war.
Miles, first have you read the book? Second if you feel that the problem is global then why does the first two post only mention the USA and why you have still not compared and contrasted with Holland? Shall I do that?
Posts: 7939 | Location: Santa Barbara | Registered: 19 July 2005
A minimum wage increase would raise the wages of millions of workers.
An estimated 7.3 million workers (5.8% of the workforce) would receive an increase in their hourly wage rate if the minimum wage were raised from $5.15 to $7.25 by June 2007.
Due to "spillover effects," the 8.2 million workers (6.5% of the workforce) earning up to a dollar above the minimum would also be likely to benefit from an increase. Minimum wage increases benefit working families.
The earnings of minimum wage workers are crucial to their families' well-being. Evidence from the 1996-97 minimum wage increase shows that the average minimum wage worker brings home more than half (54%) of his or her family's weekly earnings.
An estimated 760,000 single mothers with children under 18 would benefit from a minimum wage increase to $7.25 by June 2007. Single mothers would benefit disproportionately from an increase — single mothers are 10.4% of workers affected by an increase, but they make up only 5.3% of the overall workforce. Approximately 1.8 million parents with children under 18 would benefit.
Adults make up the largest share of workers who would benefit from a minimum wage increase: 72% of workers whose wages would be raised by a minimum wage increase to $7.25 by June 2007 are adults (age 20 or older).
Close to half (43.9%) of workers who would benefit from a minimum wage increase work full time and another third (34.5%) work between 20 and 34 hours per week.
I am not sure if too many here really want to get into an editing war
But it's a war!
You don't get to suddenly play serious, Ronald, because you're not being it. Also, you're the one who corrected your writing. I merely implied to be enquiring about a word you spelled as the first name of a German soccer player. You want to be trivial - you got it. Get it? (And please do not remain under the impression that your bold-faced, er, "wit" is actually clever, funny or worth accentuating.)
Having said that, I'm retreating to bash Holland again. Which is called the Netherlands. But I'll keep it local. Toodles!
Posts: 2736 | Location: Andijvie | Registered: 25 June 2002
One problem is that wages aren't keeping pace with the cost of living. For upper middle and high income earners, that doesn't present a huge problem. For minimum wage earners it often translates into cutting into the necessities. Take for instance the increases in gas and energy prices just over the last couple of years, nearly 100% increase. Yet minimum wage earners have experienced a 0% increase in income, maybe if they were hard working and lucky enough to get on with a good company they might have realized a 10% increase in income.
I don't know what the answers are to solving this dilemma or even if it can be solved. Education and job creation are the only two things I know for sure that help, so cutting student loan/assistance programs and giving corporations a wink and a nod to outsource jobs certainly doesn't help. In my state, Washington, the state mandated minimum wage is $7.45 an hour (??I think), which is a couple of bucks above the federal level. With the average 3 bdrm house renting for $900-$1000 one full time minimum wage earner wouldn't bring home enough to pay the rent.
Written into the Farm Act of 2001 was the inclusion of horse breeders to qualify for federal farm subsidies. The only people I know who breed horses are already wealthy, and horses aren't nearly the necessity that education assistance is for a good labor force. A question of priorities.
------------------------------------ We cannot control the evil tongues of others; but a good life enables us to disregard them.
Posts: 1855 | Location: here and now | Registered: 22 September 2005
Andger, yes "war" would be slightly overblown, but I was wondering if you actually wanted to get into a conflict on making misstakes on posts? I would hope that you should know me enough that yes I am irreverent on many posts but I am willing to look at an issue in depth. If you can't have fun here then why come? Klaus is a perfect example of having a fun attitude here.
quote:
(And please do not remain under the impression that your bold-faced, er, "wit" is actually clever, funny or worth accentuating.)
But by your own action I am sure now most people here have memorized that phrase or at least have had to reread it.
As far as Netherlands, Holland, the Dutch etc, I admit have a limited knowledge of your country but was using Holland as Miles seems to be using it.
Oh, and have fun storming that bastille or bastion or even Bastian if you want. LMAO.
Posts: 7939 | Location: Santa Barbara | Registered: 19 July 2005
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