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Is the USA a suitable place to live at present?

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It's shameful that this sort of thing goes on in this day and age.

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Reprieve says it will be pressing for criminal prosecutions against the CIA agents alleged to have carried out the torture.

Last week it emerged that the CIA destroyed hundreds of hours of videotapes showing the torture of detainees held by the US.

Binyam Mohammed was born in Ethiopia but was given leave to remain in the UK after seeking asylum in 1994. Seven years later, he travelled to Pakistan and Afghanistan where the Americans allege that he underwent training in firearms and explosives. In 2002, he was arrested by Pakistani immigration officials at Karachi airport on his way back to the UK. He says he was then taken to Morocco and tortured for 18 months, including having his penis slashed, before being sent to Guantanamo, where he still remains.

Mr Stafford-Smith added in his letter: "As you know, the only purported basis for the US holding Mr Mohammed is an allegation that he is an ('illegal') enemy combatant. Five-and-a-half years after his initial seizure, he is not currently charged in a military commission, and he has never been offered a fair trial. As you are aware, Mr Mohammed was rendered to Morocco by the CIA and tortured for 18 months in a way that was medieval.

"There can be no rational dispute that this is true. We have the CIA flight records which precisely match Mr Mohammed's version of events. He has nothing to do with Morocco, and he was not taken there by the CIA for a Club Med vacation."

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I would say, judging by your lack of patriotic support, that neither of you is suited to live in the USA.

While your prophet rides a mule, mine rides a rocket ship. Shall we race?
JOIN YET? IT'S YOUR WAR - REPUBLICANS - GoArmy.com
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Center For American Progress
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Landover Baptist Church

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How often have we heard that we're terrorists for wanting to pull troops out?

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Originally posted by ArtJunky:

Of course it's "silly." I'm fine with hyperbole as long as the opposition deserves it.

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Most every country on earth has things in its history and way of doing things of which it can be proud and most every one has some really shameful history.

Except maybe Bhutan. Can't think of any genocidal acts they've inflicted. There are probably a few others small countries that are relatively blameless.

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Originally posted by BrentBoz-Hell:
RR posted: "Does Bhutan have anything to be proud of?"

Obviously a rhetorical question.

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Except maybe Bhutan. Can't think of any genocidal acts they've inflicted.

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The Lhotshampas say they are victims of ethnic cleansing and accuse the Bhutanese government of torture and genocide.

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Originally posted by BrentBoz-Hell:
I never said they've avoided the problem of patriotism.

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What is your ability at reading comprehension?

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Honestly, Rutherford, you crack me up. Your posts are a never-ending onslaught of unintentional mirth.

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I mention an entire country about which it seems you have little or no knowledge, and you respond by asking if there's anything in the entire country to be proud of.

Thanks for the laugh!

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Except maybe Bhutan. Can't think of any genocidal acts they've inflicted

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This has made Bhutan as one of the highest per capita refugee generators in the world. As on March 2001, approximately 98,886 Bhutanese refugees were living in seven refugee camps in eastern Nepal managed by the UNHCR.

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Bhutan as a multi-religious, multi-cultural and multi-linguistic society is self-evident. However, the government argues that "Pluralism is only practical for a larger country where a diversity of customs, traditions and culture enriches that nation. A small country like Bhutan cannot afford the luxury of such diversity which may impede the growth of social harmony and unity among its people". In the name of national integration, the government implemented various racial and discriminatory policies aimed at forceful homogenisation of multi-ethnic society. This 'Drukpanization' policy was designed to annihilate the culture, religion and language of Lhotshampas, Sharchhops and other minority ethnic, religious and linguistic groups.

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Originally posted by BrentBoz-Hell:
Loganthor: Alright, you have won this point on the extent of the refugee situation.

In their defense I'd say their genocide was carried out in a more peaceful fashion than were those committed by the USA.

Bhutan can be proud of its environmental policies.

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Originally posted by Sako:
I don't understand.

My understanding of genocide was the legal definition. I was unaware that we could create our own interpretations and descriptions of what genocide is.
I had not thought to describe genocide as forcing someone to move away to another country. As you had said, they may have evicted them, though that is disputed.

The accepted description:
"the legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). Article 2 of the CPPCG defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

I have noticed the term genocide tossed inappropriately into several conversations and it does seem to be a word that invokes passionate discourse.

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Bhutan has not committed genocide.

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deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part

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In the name of national integration, the government implemented various racial and discriminatory policies aimed at forceful homogenisation of multi-ethnic society. This 'Drukpanization' policy was designed to annihilate the culture, religion and language of Lhotshampas, Sharchhops and other minority ethnic, religious and linguistic groups

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More than 125,000 Bhutanese people, nearly a sixth of the kingdom's total population of approximately 782,548 have been forced to leave or forcibly evicted from the country by the Government.

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Loganthor: "physical destruction"

This is the salient point in this clause of the description of genocide.

I regret the displacement, for whatever reason, of the Nepali speakers, but it is not shown that the Bhutan government has sought their physical destruction.

The Bhutan gov't claims they're doing pretty good on Nepali welfare.

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killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group,

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deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part

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Loganthor: I'd say you need to learn reading comprehension. Everything you're quoting cites a deliberate physical harm (destruction) being imposed on the target group. Physical harm in terms of bodily harm.

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Well, that's not in the definition that Sako quoted.

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The accepted description:
"the legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). Article 2 of the CPPCG defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

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Bhutan did not transfer children of the targeted group to another group, nor did it attempt to prevent births within the group.

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But Bhutan did not engage in these practices, anyway

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“deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part”

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You are saying that kicking someone out of the country is the same as murdering that person (or people)?

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Genocide: The deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group.

Ethnic Cleansing: The elimination of an unwanted group from a society, as by genocide or forced migration

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Loganthor: you do not know how to read (comprehend), AT ALL

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The international legal definition of the crime of genocide is found in Articles II and III of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide.

Article II describes two elements of the crime of genocide:

1) the mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such", and

2) the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide."

Article III described five punishable forms of the crime of genocide: genocide; conspiracy, incitement, attempt and complicity.


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Excerpt from the Convention on the Prevention and
Punishment of Genocide (For full text click here)
"Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article III: The following acts shall be punishable:

(a) Genocide;

(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;

(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;

(d) Attempt to commit genocide;

(e) Complicity in genocide. "


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It is a crime to plan or incite genocide, even before killing starts, and to aid or abet genocide: Criminal acts include conspiracy, direct and public incitement, attempts to commit genocide, and complicity in genocide.
Punishable Acts The following are genocidal acts when committed as part of a policy to destroy a group’s existence:

Killing members of the group includes direct killing and actions causing death.

Causing serious bodily or mental harm includes inflicting trauma on members of the group through widespread torture, rape, sexual violence, forced or coerced use of drugs, and mutilation.

Deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to destroy a group includes the deliberate deprivation of resources needed for the group’s physical survival, such as clean water, food, clothing, shelter or medical services. Deprivation of the means to sustain life can be imposed through confiscation of harvests, blockade of foodstuffs, detention in camps, forcible relocation or expulsion into deserts.

Prevention of births includes involuntary sterilization, forced abortion, prohibition of marriage, and long-term separation of men and women intended to prevent procreation.

Forcible transfer of children may be imposed by direct force or by fear of violence, duress, detention, psychological oppression or other methods of coercion. The Convention on the Rights of the Child defines children as persons under the age of 18 years.

Genocidal acts need not kill or cause the death of members of a group. Causing serious bodily or mental harm, prevention of births and transfer of children are acts of genocide when committed as part of a policy to destroy a group’s existence.

The law protects four groups - national, ethnical, racial or religious groups.

A national group means a set of individuals whose identity is defined by a common country of nationality or national origin.

An ethnical group is a set of individuals whose identity is defined by common cultural traditions, language or heritage.

A racial group means a set of individuals whose identity is defined by physical characteristics.

A religious group is a set of individuals whose identity is defined by common religious creeds, beliefs, doctrines, practices, or rituals.

Key Terms

The crime of genocide has two elements: intent and action. “Intentional” means purposeful. Intent can be proven directly from statements or orders. But more often, it must be inferred from a systematic pattern of coordinated acts.

Intent is different from motive. Whatever may be the motive for the crime (land expropriation, national security, territorrial integrity, etc.), if the perpetrators commit acts intended to destroy a group, even part of a group, it is genocide.

The phrase "in whole or in part" is important. Perpetrators need not intend to destroy the entire group. Destruction of only part of a group (such as its educated members, or members living in one region) is also genocide. Most authorities require intent to destroy a substantial number of group members – mass murder. But an individual criminal may be guilty of genocide even if he kills only one person, so long as he knew he was participating in a larger plan to destroy the group.

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Gravely concerned about the deterioration of the situation in the
Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina owing to intensified aggressive acts by the
Serbian and Montenegrin forces to acquire more territories by force,
characterized by a consistent pattern of gross and systematic violations of
human rights, a burgeoning refugee population resulting from mass expulsions
of defenceless civilians from their homes and the existence in Serbian and
Montenegrin controlled areas of concentration camps and detention centres, in pursuit of the abhorrent policy of "ethnic cleansing", which is a form of genocide,

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Really ironic in that what Bhutan did does not include EITHER element

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Interesting how you continually cite things that help the other side in the argument, Loganthor. That is a symptom of what diagnosis?

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That's called "forced relocation", which according to the UN documents you've quoted is different from genocide.

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Is Darfur in Bhutan?

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Yes, I agree that it is likely that that is what has occurred, Loganthor.

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Loganthor: this is a clear definition.

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You are saying that they might change the name of their group, which would be tantamount to having had genocide inflicted upon them? Please.

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any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group