Interesting: does this mean that you may enslave people that do not agree with your religion? It would appear so, wouldn't it...
Rights are based on natural law. If you discount natural law you therefore have no rights. If God does not exist than the mightiest of the world according to unbelievers can do as they will since they have no restraints. Sorry, you cannot say just because it seems appropriate - because what is value to you is rejected by another. Without a source for value, all life is threatened.
We have been given inalienable rights unless of course you do not believe it to be true than all hell can break loose and whose to say it's wrong.
Inalienable rights are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If you deny these inalienable rights than you deny YOU have any rights at all and have NO protection. You have reduced your value to be no better than an animal.
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
The Catholic Church had a major presence in slavery in the New World. According to Richard Miller, Catholic countries were “the prime movers in the revival of slavery in the Old World and the introduction of it into the New World.” The five major countries that dominated slavery and the slave trade in the New World were either Catholic, or still retained strong Catholic influences including: Spain, Portugal, France, and England, as well as the Dutch. Christopher Columbus himself thought first of enslaving the Natives that he encountered upon the discovery of the island of Hispaniola in 1492. Within the first month of his arrival Columbus seized six young men that had canoed up alongside his ship as prisoners to be sent back to the Catholic King and Queen of Spain as slaves. He also had seven women and three children captured because he believed that the men would work better as servants if they had women around.6 He was also very fixed on sending the Natives to Spain to be converted to Catholicism. The Church of Rome did not consider the African slave a human being until 1839. Miller adds that this only occurred after the abolition movement by the American Anti-slavery Society, and “the certainty of the handwriting on the wall that someday slavery would be abolished . . .”.
Posts: 169 | Location: Out there | Registered: 27 July 2007
Prove it. And please remember, that if you include your circus religion into your proof, you will base your argument on what you believe, not on actual fact.
Ah, those pesky little facts. They DO tend to be a nuisance.
Posts: 169 | Location: Out there | Registered: 27 July 2007
Hemiolus - this is copied from your reference: "There are obviously many different forms of religion derived from Catholic and Protestant roots, as well as an infinite number of independent beliefs."
Protestants are rooted in the Catholic Church. They rejected the Church and changed acceptable Scripture readings of 1200 years.
"The religions on which this paper will focus are the Catholic church and the Quakers, Baptists, and Anglicans, which are all denominations within the Protestant tradition."
This author is way off base on that statement alone. The Protestant tradition began in the 16th century.
It appears that your author wants to smear the Church and has right from its beginning major flaws.
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Ah, those pesky little facts. They DO tend to be a nuisance.
Of Course. I have nothing but the greatest admiration for factual information and will not make any statements that are not from years handed on in each generation grounded in the Revelations taught by Christ to the Apostles.
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
No GG, YOU brought this up, YOU will substantiate, OR concede.
It is good to know of the back ground and character of a person before listening to or reading their positions. That does not mean we do not listen or read objectionable material, for the "character" will obviously be revealed.
The presenter's human story and education is a good indicator of what they are proposing with the topic.
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
Originally posted by Hemiolus: side step, side step, side step!
[QUOTE]Let's stay on track, shall we:
You said that you are allowed to hold slaves if they don't follow your religion. Back it up.
I believe you have thoroughly misunderstood. I did say that atheists have no protection from others using them as slaves if they did not believe in God.
quote:
You also said that you may claim the right to hold slaves based on what you refer to Natural Law. Back it up.
I said that if one does not believe in God than how can they claim dehumanizing a segment(s) of human civilization to slave status is wrong or to kill another is wrong.
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You also claim that rights (ALL rights, apparently) derive from Natural Law. Back it up.
Back up or concede. Your choice.
The Founding Fathers have given to us in our US documents that rights are not group consensus, that are not dictated by heads of states, and they are not humanly contrived, for than each could retract and remove at will what is humanly contrived.
Our Founding Fathers knew that rights are born of each person for the dignity and protection of personhood - I paraphrase their words of UNalienable rights or INalienable rights common to ALL.
Governments work FOR protection of all the people, not people for the governments.
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
Hemiolus - Just because it is on the shelves of libraries and just because the American Library Association gives credence to publications, that is not enough credible endorsement of correct and factual material.
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
I believe you have thoroughly misunderstood. I did say that atheists have no protection from others using them as slaves if they did not believe in God.
You don't THINK they do, and you believe THAT'S why bad stuff happens to them. Which is pretty much the same as saying they may be held slaves, those pesky atheïsts (since it's their own fault, they had it coming, right?). Sorry, your words, not mine.
And how about you take some responsibility for what you say.
Let's look at that statement again, shall we, because it's coming back to haunt you:
quote:
I did say that atheists have no protection from others using them as slaves if they did not believe in God.
Since this is factually incorrect for at least two (!) reasons, we can only assume that this is an article of your faith: Thou dost not believe in God, therefore thou shalt be slaves. It's all right there, GG.
Posts: 169 | Location: Out there | Registered: 27 July 2007
Interesting: does this mean that you may enslave people that do not agree with your religion? It would appear so, wouldn't it...
Rights are based on natural law. If you discount natural law you therefore have no rights. If God does not exist than the mightiest of the world according to unbelievers can do as they will since they have no restraints. Sorry, you cannot say just because it seems appropriate - because what is value to you is rejected by another. Without a source for value, all life is threatened.
We have been given inalienable rights unless of course you do not believe it to be true than all hell can break loose and whose to say it's wrong.
Inalienable rights are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If you deny these inalienable rights than you deny YOU have any rights at all and have NO protection. You have reduced your value to be no better than an animal.
The unalienable right to vote for women was given by law, not God. Kings used to rule by "divine right" supported by religion. Are you willing to re-instate a monarchy in the U.S.?
I lot of inalienable rights you disagree should be included as rights are rights that God would probably want instated. Since no one can know the mind of God, I suppose we just have to use common sense. What works best for the majority. Do what raises human life rather than degrades it.
Learn from mistakes; don't repeat them. Reading the mind of God has caused more human suffering than any other notion known to man. Read the needs of human beings. You'll be more accurate.
Retired Monk "Ideology is a disease"
Posts: 3412 | Location: denver co | Registered: 17 April 2007
Read the needs of human beings. You'll be more accurate.
The NEEDS of human beings are not so complicated. They are well defined in the Ten Commandments and the Beatitudes. God designed the human person; God gave us the desire to pursue happiness which is in the will to love - not of self but care for the needs of others and not exploit and utilizes others.
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I lot of inalienable rights you disagree should be included as rights are rights that God would probably want instated.
Such as?
Are you reinventing God's will for His people?
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I lot of inalienable rights you disagree should be included as rights are rights that God would probably want instated. Since no one can know the mind of God, I suppose we just have to use common sense. What works best for the majority.
Mob rule, is that what you propose, polyamnesty? You can do better than this, can't you? Majority - rooted and grounded in what, polyamnesty?
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Do what raises human life rather than degrades it.
What is the source to define what raises human life?
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Read the needs of human beings.
Our Creator does not contradict his creatures. History is being denied and rewritten. How can we learn from it? Sacrificing the first born child was once a pagan ritual. Most abortions are the first conceived child. We've not come along way but in fact humanity is turning against one another in many parts of the world, regressing in the name of 'choice.' see the Map of Shame. For instance, the EU rejects any remembrance of the growth of Christian civilization. It's political power and dictatorial declarations actually mock the goodness, the incredible potential of human beings.
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
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