It is the same issue GG - both are wrong. You ever get the idea that many countries which still have a death penalty have bad reputations!
Did you hear of the big scandal yesterday in Question Period? There is fear that "Doris" (Stockwell Day) has started Canada on the Slippery Slope towards Canada joining Iraq, Iran and China as one of those countries that have a Death Penalty:
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Hon. Irwin Cotler (Mount Royal, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it has been the long-standing policy of our country, reaffirmed by Foreign Affairs as recently as last Friday, that “there is no death penalty in Canada and the government of Canada does not support the death penalty” and that it will “seek clemency for Canadians sentenced to death in foreign countries”. Yet the government has now reversed this policy in not seeking clemency for Alberta-born Ronald Allen Smith, the only Canadian on death row in the United States.
Will the government reaffirm our long-standing policy restated last Friday and seek the commutation of a Canadian citizen?
Hon. Stockwell Day (Minister of Public Safety, CPC): Mr. Speaker, we will not be actively seeking to bring back to Canada convicted murderers who have been found as such in a jurisdiction that is both democratic and respects the rule of law. It would be a wrong message. We want to preserve public safety in Canada, and that is our position.
Hon. Irwin Cotler (Mount Royal, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we are talking about the commutation of a death penalty.
Canadian law also prohibits the extradition of an American citizen back to a state in the United States that practises the death penalty. Why would we now refuse to intervene to protect a Canadian citizen sentenced to death in an American state, thereby effectively reinstating capital punishment for Canadians?
Are we going to, in fact, change our extradition law as well as change our policy on capital punishment? next intervention previous intervention [Table of Contents]
Hon. Stockwell Day (Minister of Public Safety, CPC): Mr. Speaker, there is no capital punishment in Canada. Nor is there any attempt at all to change that sort of a policy.
We will not actively pursue bringing back to Canada murderers who have been tried in a democratic country that supports the rule of law.
The Conservative government said it will no longer appeal on behalf of Canadians facing death sentences in other democratic countries. But the opposition says this is a return to the party's far-right agenda. ...
There has not been a state-sanctioned execution in Canada since 1962, and the nation has long-held a position against the death penalty, Dosanjh said.
"This government, by stealth, is changing that long-standing policy to Canada to protect Canadians against the death-penalty abroad," Dosanjh said.
He added that Canada's policy not to extradite people to countries where they may face capital punishment without guarantees they would not be executed could be the next domestic law to be reversed.
"You have a wholesale change of law to capital punishment without any debate whatsoever in Parliament."
You don't get it! The practice of waterboarding risks the lives of American soldiers! American soldiers live in fear that, because the locals can't tell the difference, that they will bare the brunt of the retaliations for the actions of Blackwater. When Blackwater mercenaries go in and shoot up a village or when they get drunk and kill a diplomat's body guard and nothing happens to them, people get angry. People get angry because, in their opinion, Blackwater can kill with immunity. If the law won't take these murderers off the street, some vigilante citizen will.
The problem, like I say, these vigilante citizens can't tell the difference between an American soldier (who doesn't do those things) and Blackwater mercenaries (who do with immunity).
BTW - Bella sounds interesting - sounds a bit like A Walk in The Clouds.
We know that the little boy who drew the picture sees a house with flowers, trees and pets. I presume that his parents did not get caught in the sub-prime fiasco.
Homes should be protected. Freedoms should be protected.
How does the Patriot act protect Freedoms?
Iraq is not about the protection of American homes or American freedoms.
Posts: 771 | Location: Winnipeg | Registered: 06 September 2001
No, that is common sense. If your son/daughter/mother/father/spouse is tortured, violated or gunned down in the street and the perpetrators receive no punishment for their actions, it makes you angry.
I remember you talking about your little grandson. If someone waterboarded your grandson, you would do every thing in your power to hurt the person or persons who did that to him. Muslim grandmothers are no different than Catholic ones.
The word "fascist" means "right-winger" - and all the term "Islamofascist" means is that this particular Muslim is on the religious right. Not all Protestants are on the religions right (just ask Tommy Douglas, Stanley Knowles, Bill Blaikie Bill Siskey). Not all Catholics are on the Religious right (just ask Roger Duguay and James Loney). Not all Jews are on the religious right (Just ask Naomi Klein, Avi Lewis and David Orlikow). Not all Muslims are on the religious right (just ask Malalai Joya, Irshad Manji, Tarek Fatah or, to a certain extent Zarqa Nawaz).
There are extremists in all religions. Then there are people in every religion who are not as extreme.
My personal jihad is to get you to admit that there is actually such thing as a good Muslim. And I will make a deal with you, I will see Ella if you watch Little Mosque.
I don't believe in either female circumcision or the use of the chastity belt. I don't even believe in the Jill strap (it is like a jock strap except for girls) - after wearing it once I hid it in the basement. Maybe in another 10 years they may actually find it.
Saddam Hussain (who was technically beheaded due to his hanging) was a nasty piece of work. However, he was not at all religious. He did not really care whether women wore Hajibs, veils or nothing.
The last Canadian sentence to be hung until dead was 14 years old and he turned out to be innocent.
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stoning or hanging of women and homosexuals
Doesn't the US have the death penalty? How many of the wrongfully convicted has your government given lethal injection to?
And then you want us to send Marc Emery over to the States so that he can spend the rest of his life in jail for the income he claimed on his income tax forms.
And I won't get into what Blackwater has been up to. But put it this way - they make Saddam's sons look like gentlemen.
I would also go on record as saying that genocide is wrong, torture is wrong, and the death penalty is immorality mascarading as justice.
Posts: 771 | Location: Winnipeg | Registered: 06 September 2001
If your son/daughter/mother/father/spouse is tortured, violated or gunned down in the street and the perpetrators receive no punishment for their actions, it makes you angry.
Get real!! The terrorists waterboarded are OUR enemy! They war against innocent women and children and our American soldiers putting their life on the line in the most dangerous part of the world.
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I remember you talking about your little grandson. If someone waterboarded your grandson, you would do every thing in your power to hurt the person or persons who did that to him. Muslim grandmothers are no different than Catholic ones.
Get a grip. You've got to read the mandate to jidad by ALL Muslims in the Quran. The power to hurt?? If my grandson was warring against a nation(s) out of uniform to conquer and rule the world by force, he would have to suffer the consequences.
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My personal jihad is to get you to admit that there is actually such thing as a good Muslim.
Yes, there are good Muslims who are making a grave mistake by their silence. Jews, gypsies, Slavs, Poles, Catholics, --- died because of the silence of good German people. Silence kills. We have a silence of a holocaust of 3000 dying by abortion in our own nation and a greater percentage exterminated are our black brothers and sisters. It happens because too many good people are SIlENT!
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I don't believe in either female circumcision or the use of the chastity belt.
That is the Muslim tradition; it exists. Have you read "Infidel?"
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Saddam Hussain (who was technically beheaded due to his hanging) was a nasty piece of work. However, he was not at all religious. He did not really care whether women wore Hajibs, veils or nothing
No, he just had rape rooms and torture chambers and his sons considered it fun sport to pick out a girl at a social, had their fun with her and they were never more to be seen alive. And have you heard of the dinners served to the families who opposed the regime?
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I would also go on record as saying that genocide is wrong, torture is wrong, and the death penalty is immorality mascarading as justice.
There are very few put to death by the death penalty. Why do liberals consider themselves so heroic using the death penalty when they are SILENT on the death penalty of innocent babies?
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
Well silly of me, how can you support the hanging of stoning of someone who isn't allowed to exist in your eyes.
I don't understand your frame of mind, it is NOT christian, and quite honestly it is no wonder so many people have lost FAITH!
Death to those who do NOT believe as we do and who want to kill us because of that, ISN'T that the same thing the jihadists are promoting. KILL, KILL, KILL!!!
Conservative Christians and Fundamental Muslims have more in common than you care to admit.
"Yeehaw" is not a foreign policy!
Posts: 875 | Location: The Emerald City | Registered: 02 January 2007
GG, even you must know by now that Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11. That none of the 9-11 hijackers came from Iraq. And that Saddam Hussain and Osama Bin Laden did not like each other very much.
The names of the 9-11 hijackers can be found on line along with their country of origin.
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They war against innocent women and children
Strange that this is exactly what they see you guys are doing. How many of those, whom you like to refer to as "terrorists" or "detainees" in Abu Ghraib were later found to be there by mistake?
The Red Cross saw American officers mistreating Abu Ghraib prisoners by keeping them naked in total darkness in empty cells, and up to 90 percent of Iraqi detainees were arrested by mistake, according to a report disclosed Monday. ...
The Red Cross says 70 to 90 per cent of those detained are not insurgents. Once inside, even the Pentagon concedes the captives were frequently handled by badly-trained guards who hadn't even been informed about the Geneva Conventions. http://www.worldrevolution.org/article/1375
According to the International Red Cross, close to 90% of the people being held are not guilty of the allegations and many were picked-up almost at random by US patrols on sweeps. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_(prison)
U.S. soldiers who detained an elderly Iraqi woman last year placed a harness on her, made her crawl on all fours and rode her like a donkey, Prime Minister Tony Blair (news - web sites)'s personal human rights envoy to Iraq (news - web sites) said Wednesday. http://www.worldrevolution.org/news/article1360.htm
Sometimes they arrested all adult males present in a house, including elderly, handicapped or sick people.
In November last year, Swadi visited a woman detainee at a US military base at Al-Kharkh, a former police compound in Baghdad. “She was the only woman who would talk about her case. She was crying. She told us she had been raped,” Swadi says. “Several American soldiers had raped her. She had tried to fight them off and they had hurt her arm. She showed us the stitches. She told us, ‘We have daughters and husbands. For God’s sake don’t tell anyone about this.”’
Astonishingly, the secret inquiry launched by the US military in January, headed by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, has confirmed that the letter smuggled out of Abu Ghraib by a woman known only as “Noor” was entirely and devastatingly accurate.
Military officials have acknowledged that some juvenile prisoners had been held at Abu Ghraib, a massive prison built by Saddam Hussein's government outside Baghdad. But the transcript is the first documented evidence of a child no older than 11 being held prisoner. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,150163,00.html
How would you feel if these were your parents or grandparents or your children or grand children? How would you feel if your innocent grandchildren were waterboarded or given some of the other well-known war tortures? Would it not make you angry?
If your fiancee's house, or your mother's house was bombed, even by accident, would it not make you angry?
Some boys in their early 20's will want revenge for the attrocities committed against their loved ones, most will just do what Americans do.
Note that most of the guards in the prisons, such as Abu Ghraib were "private contractors" (ie Blackwater and the rest of them). But when a young 20 year old boy driven mad from what has happened to those he loved attempts revenge, he doesn't know the difference between Blackwater and the American Military.
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You've got to read the mandate to jidad by ALL Muslims in the Quran.
What does the word jihad mean? As I said, I have a jihad to convince you that there are some good Muslims out there. Correction - most Muslims are good.
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Jews, gypsies, Slavs, Poles, Catholics, --- died because of the silence of good German people.
My cousin's maternal grandmother hid people from the Nazis. The Nazis came and checked out her farm every once in a while and if those they hid were found, she and her son would have been shot to death on the spot. Her son was a big alcoholic until he died. Would you risk the lives of your children to keep a Jewish or Muslim family safe from those who wish to hurt them?
Do you feel that all Scottish Americans should try to prevent Scotsmen and Scotswomen they don't even know from committing violence? Should all Scottish Americans pay for the actions of Timothy McVeigh (sp?).
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No, he just had rape rooms and torture chambers and his sons
Saddam Hussain's sons were nasty pieces of work who had a doting father who prevented them from facing the consequences of their actions. Unlike Saddam Hussain, Jean Chretien's son was convicted of rape.
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There are very few put to death by the death penalty.
How few? How many of them later turned out to be innocent.
The Death Penalty corrupts any society which allows the practice. It makes the society less caring. It makes ordinarly citizens the same as murderers.
And, for the record, the chastity belt was not a Protestant thing or an Anglican thing, it was a British thing. One needs to distinguish between culture and religion, something that few people never bother to do.
There is no mention of either the chasity belt or female genital mutilation in either the Bible or the Koran.
Posts: 771 | Location: Winnipeg | Registered: 06 September 2001
meljomur GG just admitting that homophobia is wrong - so that is something we can all agree with.
Tarek Fatah is a member of the Muslim Canadian Congress.
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Do foes of gay marriages simply fear joy itself?
by Tarek Fatah and Nargis Tapal
Last month, we attended a number of weddings in Toronto. Each had its own flavour, from Pakistani to Palestinian, from elaborate Orthodox church ceremonies to modest mosque rituals. Though the rites differed, the grooms and brides were all beaming with joy.
As these couples embraced their future together, we couldn't help but feel sad for Canada's gay and lesbian couples being pilloried for seeking the same happiness. We were also taken back to a humid August evening in Karachi in 1974 when we were permitted to marry.
Gays and lesbians wishing to marry face a gantlet of opposition and we, as a heterosexual Muslim couple, can empathize with their pain. To become husband and wife, we, too, had to confront deep-seated prejudices. Culture, religion, and family would not permit the daughter of a Shia Muslim of Gujarati ethnicity to marry the son of a Sunni Muslim of Punjabi ancestry.
Four years earlier, our paths had crossed at a noisy demonstration at the University of Karachi. Two 20-year-olds pursuing graduate studies in English literature; one, an orator with two stints as a political prisoner; the other, a Beatles fan with a Ringo Starr mop of hair, who had never been to a protest rally in her life. They fell in love. In true Islamic tradition, she proposed, he accepted.
However, it was not to be that easy. This was traditional Pakistan where nothing happened without parental assent. When news got out that Nargis Tapal and Tarek Fatah wanted to wed, all hell broke loose. Both families vetoed the match. Devastated, we contemplated eloping, and were accepted at Oklahoma State University, but just to get there would cost a fortune, and we were penniless.
With nowhere to run, we persevered and several years later, both sets of parents buckled and gave their consent. To this day, we still cannot understand why it was so difficult to achieve such simple joy. After 29 years as husband and wife, we want no one denied the happiness we enjoy.
Sadly, the gatekeepers of bliss and the purveyors of grief are still alive and well. From prelates and imams to rabbis and pundits, the forces of religion are arrayed against the gay and lesbian community. Once again, we are witnessing an attack on joy and happiness in the name of religion and tradition.
As practising Muslims, we acknowledge that no faith, particularly Islam in its traditional interpretation, permits same-sex marriage or condones homosexuality. However, neither does faith allow hate and bigotry to be camouflaged as a quest for religious purity.
Most Canadian Muslims reject the notion of same-sex marriages and they are perfectly entitled to their beliefs, if, indeed, the issue is one of belief. But we think the position taken by religious leaders attacks the basic humanity of gays and lesbians. Dehumanizing "the other" is the first step to setting them as targets of bigotry and hate. Invoking religion to accomplish this task is shameful.
A Muslim monthly magazine asked its readers in an editorial , "Would you rather have church or state in your bedroom?"
Without answering the question, and oblivious to the implications of inviting church, mosque or state into our bedrooms, the writer goes on to predict moral disaster.
Accepting homosexual relationships as "marriage" will be the last nail in the coffin of human morality, according to the editorial. We Muslims allowed and promoted the delinquency in our daily life and kept quiet; we tolerated the illegitimate relationships of consenting adults outside marriage; we turned a blind eye to the "coming out of the closet" and hid behind the curtain of "hate the sin, but love the sinner" ... Even if we are looked upon in the West as "fundamentalists" or "homophobes," it is an obligation for all Muslims to do our part just as the Catholics are doing.
Last nail in the coffin of human morality? Not the Holocaust, not the genocide in Rwanda, not the massacres in Bosnia? Just same-sex marriage? Not murder, not hunger, not rape, not war, not honour killing, not illiteracy, not sexual assault by clergy, not its cover-up? To the editorial writer, nothing seems to be as vile as homosexuality.
Muslims should know better than to fall into this trap. They have been at the receiving end of slander and hate and it has taken collective action of some courageous people to defend the human rights and humanity of Muslims as equal citizens in our society. Even though an overwhelming majority of Canadians does not believe in the Qur'an as a word of God and Prophet Muhammad, may peace be upon him, as a Messenger of God, we Muslims have been given a status, at least in the law, as equal citizens, no matter how offensive others may find our religion.
The same holds true for the other side. After all, Muslims do not believe that Jesus was a Son of God; or that God should be worshipped in physical depictions such as statues; or that God does not exist at all, as atheists say. However, not only have we learned to accept Canadians with whom we have profound differences of religious belief, we have developed a society in which these differences are no hindrance to our relationship with each other.
It has been the intrinsically tolerant nature of Canadian society that has defined the rights of Muslims as equal citizens, despite our minority status. How can we then campaign against the very values that accord us the dignity we deserve?
If you believe your religion doesn't permit gay marriage, then simply don't marry a person of your own sex. End of story. Why would you wish to impose this standard on people who believe that religion, in their interpretation, does not exclude same-sex marriages?
The same religious groups that today say their only objection to the proposed law is the word "marriage," were at the forefront of challenging Bob Rae's Bill 167 in 1994; a proposed law that did not mention same-sex marriage and spoke only of same-sex rights.
The law drafted by the federal government as presented to the Supreme Court makes an explicit declaration protecting the right of any church, mosque, synagogue, and temple to refuse to perform same-sex marriages.
So why the fuss over gay marriage? Could it be the same forces of religion, tradition, culture, and hate that opposed our heterosexual marriage 30 years ago are still making their presence felt? Is it joy that they fear? Happiness, it seems, is an affront; they simply cannot fathom the idea of two people wishing to live together as a family, and to be accepted the way the Almighty created them.
As a happily married Muslim couple who almost weren't, we need to speak on their behalf, even though Islam does not permit same-sex marriages. If gays and lesbians wish to pursue their own path in life, who are we to place obstacles in their way? If their choices are contrary to that of the Divine, only the Divine can be certain. Let us find God in our kindness and compassion instead of hate and self-righteousness. For isn't God the most merciful and the most compassionate?
Only God knows whether we are right in standing up for our gay friends, but we do so in all sincerity and with the hope that no one should shower grief over the happiness sought by another human being. Let us learn to live and let live.
Posts: 771 | Location: Winnipeg | Registered: 06 September 2001
Originally posted by meljomur: Of course, not be they shouldn't exist to begin with, so how do you put someone to death, when you don't acknowledge their existence?
They Don't? - not according their own acclamations.
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
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I do not support hanging or stoning homosexuals, nor does any Christian.
