You know GG; with all due respect this is low. Basically you present a promotional film with one very dedicated individual who believes what he is doing is right. If you question the war, you question him. Right- Wrong. I don't care how many dedicated individuals you present it do not change any of the following: 1: The case for war was based upon fraud ulent information. 1: a Sadham had no WMD's and Scott Ritter and Joseph Wilson (who I might add are just as dedicated as this man) were demonized for questioning the mantra. 1:b There was no link between Al Queda and Sadham Hussein. In fact Sadham killed the Al Queda members in Iraq (as he murdered anyone else he considered a threat to his reign)
2: Iraq is or was not a real country but three provinces that were created by a group of British and French diplomats after WWI (Sykes-Picot Agreement) There was never any real national unity and as soon as Sadham was removed, all hell would break loose)The same scenario came to fruition in Yugoslavia after Marshal Tito died.
3: While Sadham was a murderer and a despot, he had a secular government where women had rights and there was a middle class and a first world intra structure. Since the US occupation women's rights have eroded, the middle class has vanished and the intra structure crumbling.
It is disgusting to me to promote these dedicated men and women and hide the failures of this adminisitration behind them. Everyone here "supports the troops" Every here acknowledges their dedication and bravery. But that is separate from the heinous lies and decit forced upon the American people. You should be ashamed
"a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason."
Posts: 1944 | Location: Beautiful New Paltz, NY | Registered: 04 July 2006
I don't care how many dedicated individuals you present it doesnt' change any of the foloowing: 1: The case for war was based upon fradulent information.
I would say possibly bad intelligence which existed during the Clinton administration which Saddam could have helped to correct if he had cooperated with weapons inspectors.
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1:a Sadham had no WMD's and Scott Ritter and Joseph Wilson (who I might add are just as dedicated as this man) were demonized for questioning the mantra.
Joe Wilson is a political hack whose only involvement is doing a poor job attempting to connect Saddam to yellow cake in Nigeria.
Scott Ritter is a pedophile who was unsuccessful in any meaningful inspections in Iraq and could have headed off the war if he had done his work properly.
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1:b There was no link between Al Queda and Sadham Hussein. IN fact Sadham killed the Al Queda members in Iraq (as he murdered anyone else he considred a threat to his reign)
There was no link between Saddam and 9/11 but the 9/11 commission documented communication between Saddam and AlQueda.
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2: Iraq is or was not a real country but three provinces that were created by a group of British and French diplomats after WWI (Sykes-Picot Agreement) There was never any real national unity and as soon as Sadham was removed, all hell would break loose)The same scenatio came to fruition in Yougoslavia after Marshal Tito died.
It was one country under Saddam although he was violent in keeping it together. If you want to go back in history, you can go back to Mesopotamia and look at their boundaries. You don't prove anything by doing it however.
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3: While Sadham was a murderer and a despot, he had a secular government where women had rights and there was a middle class and a first world intrastructure. Since the US occupation weomen's rights have erroded, the middle class has vanished and the intrastructure crumbling.
You are right about a form of women's rights although women weren't granted the same rights as men. If you call shared misery a middle class you'd be right about that too. The truth is that Iraq was made up of Bedouins, a privileged upper cast and everyone else. Iraqi blogs that I read don't speak favorably about Iraq's infrastructure either before the war or after it. They never have had first world infrastructure.
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It is disgusting to me to promote these dedicated men and women and hide the failures of this administration behind them. Everyone here "supports the troops" Every here acknowledges their dedication and bravery. But that is separate from the heinous lies and decit thrusted upon the American people. You should be ashamed
You support the troops because the lesson from Vietnam was that many returning troops were treated disrespectfully and that creates bad press. To support the troops you have to understand that they are given a mission, they volunteer their service and believe in their cause. If they don't they leave. GG supports the troops and shows it. Your support is lip service and nothing more.
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
Posts: 8264 | Location: Fl | Registered: 05 July 2001
James Leo, click on "from the troops" upper right side of bar for more interviews. And while you are at it, peruse the whole of "Operation Iraqi Freedom".
We bring the troops home and we fight the war on terror on American soil. Is that what you desire?
Do you want another Cambodia and another Vietnam - a blood bath happened in these countries because we did NOT GET THE JOB DONE!
What happened to the will to win? We have not won a war since the WWII. What happened to correct reporting and non-biased contrived anti-Americanism. How much effect does the Michael Moores have on our media?
What about believing what Islamofascists are proclaiming to the world - infidels are to be either dead or slaves. Which one are you opting for?
Get serious and recognize we have an enemy and increasing its strength each day.
Democrats twice voted to support the invasion. You cannot put the blame on the Bush Admininstration only. Bipartisanly it was known the formidable threat growing and it is well recorded. You want reminders?
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with all due respect this is low.
What's LOW is terrorism's encouragement by the lack of will to win the war. You think they are not listening on their i-pods how devisive Americans are and unwilling to fight their evil? American troops VOLUNTEER sometimes 3 times because they believe in what is being done in Iraq is good.
Media fails to report their testimonies. You must be afraid to hear their them - that it??
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There was no link between Al Queda and Sadham Hussein.
Hillary is on record and others stating otherwise. It was well recorded that weapons and training was going on in Iraq. Why was Suddam uncooperative with UN inspectors if not these to hide? Now Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is repeating the same resistance. Will we ever learn?
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In fact Sadham killed the Al Queda members in Iraq (as he murdered anyone else he considered a threat to his reign)
Really. I never heard that. Then was it his intention to live peacefully thereafter?
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There was never any real national unity and as soon as Sadham was removed, all hell would break loose)
I would love to see you reason that with Iraqis who witnessed so many atrocities to families by the Hilter tyrant. Want a list of these?
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he had a secular government where women had rights and there was a middle class and a first world intra structure.
JamesLeo - it's Sunday and I'll be careful on my language. Who are YOU kiddin'
Please, and tell me about his goodness.
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Since the US occupation women's rights have eroded, the middle class has vanished and the intra structure crumbling.
That's so bad --- that's sooo disgustingly
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It is disgusting to me to promote these dedicated men and women and hide the failures of this adminisitration behind them.
WE all need to hear what the troops are saying. I have my issues with Pres. Bush.
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Everyone here "supports the troops"
The troops find it difficult to hear the slander against their Commander & Chief. Likewise the enemy loves the hatefulness and emboldens them and increases danger to our troops. Doesn't that only make sense? The media loves to tell the numbers of deaths and even show enemy fire killing our troops. Their great recruiters for terrorism, don't you think?
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
"These things which man purports to admire-the noble, the brilliant, the splendid-these are the very things he cannot tolerate when he finds them."-----Mark Clifton
Posts: 5565 | Location: hoffman estates il | Registered: 01 April 2003
The troops find it difficult to hear the slander against their Commander & Chief.
slander is falsehood, not fact. I'm sure they were happy to hear "Bring 'em on" from one that's never done anything himself in his life, never fought his own fight, in his life, and failed at everything he's ever done or tried throughout his life.
Blaise Pascal Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. Pensees
Posts: 2917 | Location: Sverige | Registered: 21 June 2005
Joserf Goebbels is alive and well in right wing Amerika: "Tell a lie loud enough and loud enough, and people will believe its true". Thom it right The Parallels between Nazi Germany and the USA today are striking! _______________________________________________ Joe Wilson is a political hack whose only involvement is doing a poor job attempting to connect Saddam to yellow cake in Nigeria And the Libby Trial: thats not really going on http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Libby-and-Chenehttp: Valarie Plame was "outed" as a CIA operative in direct reptribution for Wilson's speaking out
Scott Ritter is a pedophile who was unsuccessful in any meaningful inspections in Iraq and could have headed off the war if he had done his work properly. ______________________________________________ The case against ritter was "adjourned in contemplation of dismissal" and the record was sealed http://www.warblogging.com/archives/000457.php Sounds like retributon to me! You can't dispute Wilson or Ritter's evidence so you have to smear them personally. ______________________________________________ You support the troops because the lesson from Vietnam was that many returning troops were treated disrespectfully and that creates bad press. To support the troops you have to understand that they are given a mission, they volunteer their service and believe in their cause. If they don't they leave. GG supports the troops and shows it. Your support is lip service and nothing more
More smears: You know nothing about me. Who I am and what I have done or where I have been. I never was involved in Vietnam Demonstrations. Well, actually I went to one and one arsehole started burning the American Flag, I felt very uneasy and left being my father is a Purple Heart WWII veteran (he thought Vietnam was unjustified as well!)
I am just curious: are these the latest Rush Limbaugh/O'Reilly/Glen Beck talking points You guys are good at this You are so god damn good. In the meantime keep spinning keep telling the same stories over and over again. The probmem is the Truth, like the Russian Army tanks crashing throgh the gates of Berlin, is out of the bottle and Chenny and all his henchmen cannot put it back.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: bill king,
"a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason."
Posts: 1944 | Location: Beautiful New Paltz, NY | Registered: 04 July 2006
That's not true, I know what you write. You claim to support the troops but what you really support is having the troops agree with your view of the security of America and their families. It's not comfortable for you because most of them don't agree with you.
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I am just curious: are these the latest Rush Limbaugh/O'Reilly/Glen Beck talking points
No, this is just the way I see the world. I wish we hadn't gone to Iraq but we did. Now that we are there, we need to leave the right way, with a stable Iraqi government that has the ability to defend itself from Iran. No easy way to do that but anything less will be a disaster for the world.
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
Posts: 8264 | Location: Fl | Registered: 05 July 2001
No, this is just the way I see the world. I wish we hadn't gone to Iraq but we did. Now that we are there, we need to leave the right way, with a stable Iraqi government that has the ability to defend itself from Iran. No easy way to do that but anything less will be a disaster for the world.
My beliefs are my beliefs The troops have their opinons and I resepct them. I have donated blood and sent phone cards so they can call their families. I don't bragg about it because I belive acts like these are personal and not just a way to earn points. As for Iran, thats goiong to be a challange as many of the Shia are sympathic to Iran as the Sunis were sympathic to the Baathists. I resent the fact that more troops have to die to satisfy Chenney's ego. You want to know the real reason we are in Iraq? Not Oil. This was some peverted neo-con free market experiment link Both Thom and writer Naomi Klein have proposed this and there is a good body of evidence to support this. BTW: I never advocated an immediate pull out. What I have called for are hearing to expose the liars who exploited the tragedy of 9/11 to get us there in the first place. Also, you want to support the troops. If you have time, please visit a VA hospital and you will see how well the troops are supported. I have they deserve better health care than the VA is providing.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: bill king,
"a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason."
Posts: 1944 | Location: Beautiful New Paltz, NY | Registered: 04 July 2006
Now that we are there, we need to leave the right way, with a stable Iraqi government that has the ability to defend itself from Iran. No easy way to do that but anything less will be a disaster for the world.
I've listened to this spiel from you and others, and I've looked carefully at what's going on. And I ask:
If what your government does to achieve that goal creates the opposite affect, and if the very presence of U.S. troops occupying another country is itself both the fuel and the catalyst, how do you solve that paradox, Don? You demand we fix it, but it looks more like the cure that kills. You have merely created a self referentially true tautology. The result is a conundrum.
I would say an enigma wrapped in a conundrum. Invading Iraq was the biggest blunder this country has ever made in my opinion. If we leave now, I would imagine that Iran would annex Iraq in a few short months, creating the worlds largest oil monopoly. I believe this would be unsettling to world markets and the UN would sanction the removal of Iran from Iraq like they did when Iraq invaded Kuwait. This means we would have to start this whole mess over again and be in a worse position than we are now. The situation sucks but I can only see one way out.
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
Posts: 8264 | Location: Fl | Registered: 05 July 2001
We might have to consider Partitioning the country and having the majority of our troops stationed in the Kurdish areas. They are welcomed there and they could be easily redeployed if the need should arise. Wesley Clark actually did a very good job managing the situation in Yugoslavia. No American soldier was killed Believe it or nor the situations are similar and maybe some of the lessons learned in the Balkins can be applied to Iraq.
"a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason."
Posts: 1944 | Location: Beautiful New Paltz, NY | Registered: 04 July 2006
If we leave now, I would imagine that Iran would annex Iraq in a few short months, creating the worlds largest oil monopoly. I believe this would be unsettling to world markets and the UN would sanction the removal of Iran from Iraq like they did when Iraq invaded Kuwait.
I doubt it. Iran wouldn't have just the inept U.S. to administration to deal with, it would have the rest of the world, which also wants its oil.
This is the globe's most fundamentally important geostrategic region. Iran is being twisted to look like it's only one thing, but there are many forces at work in Iran. The president is a barking toothless terrier with no administrative power to back up his yaps. Iran people want prosperity as well. Step back and look at who is the big gorilla on the block that wants power.
U.S. policy is aimed at its own self destruction, that's where it is taking its own people. The other major powers are going to watch U.S. go down in flames, and with no sense of remorse, and why should they feel anything else? The U.S. citizens have allowed the "biggest blunder this country has ever made" to occur, meanwhile isolating itself in many ways from world opinion in the process. Even a Russian President has the sense to see the U.S. has abandoned its democratic principles in this Middle East project.
The solution to this problem will be a easing back on pride and a call to the rest of the world to bail the U.S. out of its mess, but they'll want to because it will bail everyone else out at the same time.
James, I believe that you see the war in terms of a National crisis and not an international problem centered on energy, which is what it is. Partitioning the country so domestic tension in Iraq lessens only creates an easier target for foreign invasion.
Yugoslavia wasn't sitting on a pool of money waiting to be pumped to the surface. That was a much easier situation to manage.
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
Posts: 8264 | Location: Fl | Registered: 05 July 2001
Yugoslavia wasn't sitting on a pool of money waiting to be pumped to the surface. That was a much easier situation to manage
Thats painfully true but still. There was terrible ethnic and religious tensions and we were able to keep the peace and prevent Milosevitch (spelling) from comitting any more mass murders. If it is an international problem then it will require an international solution. The sad part for me is we have competent professioal individuals in the Military and perhaps elsewhere who are capable of solving these problems. Dwight D. Eisenhower managed the rebuliding of Germany and kept the water running, the garbadge colleciton etc. during the American occupation after Germany surrendered. He must be turning in his grave now with this mismanagment
"a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason."
Posts: 1944 | Location: Beautiful New Paltz, NY | Registered: 04 July 2006
"These things which man purports to admire-the noble, the brilliant, the splendid-these are the very things he cannot tolerate when he finds them."-----Mark Clifton
Posts: 5565 | Location: hoffman estates il | Registered: 01 April 2003
Originally posted by BrentBozo: GG posted: "Do you want another Cambodia and another Vietnam - a blood bath happened in these countries because we did NOT GET THE JOB DONE!"
GG: tell me who Lon Nol was (and don't look it up).
Also, tell me who the brothers Nhu were, and Van Minh, General Khanh, Thieu & Ky.
If you don't knows these historical figures, don't tell us what happened in SE Asia.
Brent, I admit that I do not know these names.
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
Brent, here is one for you. What do these names have in common?
Danny Pearl, Nick Berg, Paul Johnson, So. Korean/Kim Sun II ** ** * * * * * ** * * * * * *
One talk show host I listen to begins his program with another voice saying, "Why Can't We All Get Along?"
It appears to me that Democrats define themselves by "What They Oppose" only.
Please tell me just what DO Dems support to strenthen the UNITED STATES of American? All I hear is what is hated about Pres. George Bush and his admininstration?
What are the Democrat's plans to strengthen patriotism/ the Nation / to protect the civilization as we know it?
Does the party intend to win the next election by criticisms only?
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
Please tell me just what DO Dems support to strenthen the UNITED STATES of American? All I hear is what is hated about Pres. George Bush and his admininstration?
You just answered your own question. Getting rid of everything Bush stands for would strengthen this country immeasurably.
"These things which man purports to admire-the noble, the brilliant, the splendid-these are the very things he cannot tolerate when he finds them."-----Mark Clifton
Posts: 5565 | Location: hoffman estates il | Registered: 01 April 2003
GG posted: "Danny Pearl, Nick Berg, Paul Johnson, So. Korean/Kim Sun II"
Is it that they're all dead? (I don't know who Paul Johnson was).
Anyway, if you're interested enough to allude to the (alleged) history of the SE Asian conflict, perhaps some reading about it would be in order. I assure the people I mentioned are prominent in the history.
I doubt it. Iran wouldn't have just the inept U.S. to administration to deal with, it would have the rest of the world, which also wants its oil.
This is the globe's most fundamentally important geostrategic region. Iran is being twisted to look like it's only one thing, but there are many forces at work in Iran.
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