I respect your defense of Israel.

Pretty much sums it up.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sawdust,

quote:

Originally posted by Sawdust:
I respect your defense of Israel.

Pretty much sums it up.

Really.

***

i heard that israel is veritably shitting itself over what the UN has to say (it holds the record for non compliamce in that regard i believe). Where is the "indignation" eh, Sawdust?

Sawdust:
Thanks for the vote of confidence. It is not so much that I am a defender of Israel, but hopefully can stimulate some reasonableness in the debate. Since there is no end of people who will post extended anti-Israel diatribes, it falls to me to be the opposition. In a rabidly anti-Arab discussion I would no doubt come to the defense of the Arabs.

The brave woman the NYT article refers to, she takes her life in her hands by saying those things. We hope that at some time in the future the Arabs graduate from the medieval mentality of theirs and stop warring with the civilized world.

I don't get into these discussions anymore because they always look bigoted to me and I dislike that. The following is what inspired me to post.

quote:

Perhaps her most provocative words on Al Jazeera were those comparing how the Jews and Muslims have reacted to adversity. Speaking of the Holocaust, she said, "The Jews have come from the tragedy and forced the world to respect them, with their knowledge, not with their terror; with their work, not with their crying and yelling."

She went on, "We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people."

She concluded, "Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them."

.


Sawdust,
Sadly, Gnarl doesn't only defend Israel, but appears to be an apologist for every Israeli aggression and Gnarl seems to be vehemntly anti-Muslim. Have you ever read some of the offensive, vicious, and arrogant drivel that Gnarl has written.....perhaps you need to review some of her wacky, hate-filled posts again.

I wonder....I take that back, I doubt very strongly that Gnarl has ever protested or written into any of the mainstream media outlets or to the corporate hollywood production houses criticizing them for almost invariably painting every Israeli aggression as something else and painting Muslims as basically the evil-doers.


When has Gnarl ever taken the side of the severely subjugated (by a fanatical Israeli leadership) Palestinian people? When?



.

I've glanced at some threads. There seems to me to be more anit Israel and Israeli rambelings on this board than I ever see from any other point of view. Also I see the Iraeli's as primarily reactive to the kind of activity that Ms. Sultan speaks of. Israel has no desire to remove Arabs from the Middle East. The same cannot be said for Arabs and their desire to remove Israeli's

I believe that Ms. Sultan points out the central problems with Muslim culture and they are the reason there are so many problems in the Muslim world. To fix a problem first you have to understand it. I believe Ms. Sultan understands it.

quote:

Originally posted by Sawdust:

I've glanced at some threads...

Welcome back, Sunrise.

quote:

Originally posted by Gnarlodious:
Sawdust:
Thanks for the vote of confidence. It is not so much that I am a defender of Israel, but hopefully can stimulate some reasonableness in the debate. Since there is no end of people who will post extended anti-Israel diatribes, it falls to me to be the opposition. In a rabidly anti-Arab discussion I would no doubt come to the defense of the Arabs.

The brave woman the NYT article refers to, she takes her life in her hands by saying those things. We hope that at some time in the future the Arabs graduate from the medieval mentality of theirs and stop warring with the civilized world.

****ing priceless!

quote:

Originally posted by Sawdust:
I don't get into these discussions anymore because they always look bigoted to me and I dislike that. The following is what inspired me to post.

quote:

Perhaps her most provocative words on Al Jazeera were those comparing how the Jews and Muslims have reacted to adversity. Speaking of the Holocaust, she said, "The Jews have come from the tragedy and forced the world to respect them, with their knowledge, not with their terror; with their work, not with their crying and yelling."

She went on, "We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people."

She concluded, "Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them."

And here's me hoping you'd provide some examples of Gnarlies "defense of Israel".

quote:

Originally posted by Sawdust:
I've glanced at some threads. There seems to me to be more anit Israel and Israeli rambelings on this board than I ever see from any other point of view.

Hi Sawdust,
I don't challenged this...it is likely true on this particular board, but you refused to address other points I've brought up. Intentionally skirting them?

quote:

Also I see the Iraeli's as primarily reactive to the kind of activity that Ms. Sultan speaks of. Israel has no desire to remove Arabs from the Middle East. The same cannot be said for Arabs and their desire to remove Israeli's I believe that Ms. Sultan points out the central problems with Muslim culture and they are the reason there are so many problems in the Muslim world. To fix a problem first you have to understand it. I believe Ms. Sultan understands it.

That's revisioniist's history for the most part that you regurgitate.

You might want to review the history of the Middle East lands all the way back to the second millennium B.C.E. and further to the expulsion of mass numbers of Palestinians in the middle of the 20th century to really understand who have been the aggressors by-in-large and which people's have been pushed off the land they've called home for a very long time prior to the British Mandate over Palestine which carved off 56% of the land under the partition plan going to the newly formed Israeli state. If you review history objectively, then you will come up with a different perspective than you carry now.

There have been aggressions by both Jew and Muslim, Arab and Israeli, but to continue to pretend that only Israel uses violence reactively is only deceiving yourself.

Be well.


.

quote:

Originally posted by mmissinglink:
.


Sawdust,
Sadly, Gnarl doesn't only defend Israel, but appears to be an apologist for every Israeli aggression and Gnarl seems to be vehemntly anti-Muslim. Have you ever read some of the offensive, vicious, and arrogant drivel that Gnarl has written.....perhaps you need to review some of her wacky, hate-filled posts again.

I wonder....I take that back, I doubt very strongly that Gnarl has ever protested or written into any of the mainstream media outlets or to the corporate hollywood production houses criticizing them for almost invariably painting every Israeli aggression as something else and painting Muslims as basically the evil-doers.


When has Gnarl ever taken the side of the severely subjugated (by a fanatical Israeli leadership) Palestinian people? When?



.

He could just simply explain how he developed his respect for Gnarlies defense of Israel, by giving some examples that he's glanced at.

Instead he posted some bigoted anti arab comments he clearly didnt "get into".

As for -

quote:

She went on, "We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people."

She concluded, "Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them."

Apart from Arabs not being responsible for the Holocaust, lets just get that out of the way.

Terror and murder by jews for their beliefs (includes killing fellow jews)-

"Terror using modern tools (letter bombs, car bombs, etc.) and weapons was first adopted in the Middle East by Zionists [JEWS] working outside state control and outside of any geographically limited area. This was truly the first non-state, global terror network. In the single month of July 1938, the Irgun killed 76 Palestinians in terrorist attacks. On July 22,1946, a Zionist truck-bomb blew up the King David hotel in Jerusalem (housing also the British civil administration) killing 28 British, 41 Arab, 17 Jewish, and 5 others while injuring over 200. This was the first use of a car bomb in the Middle East. While Irgun claimed responsibility, later evidence also showed involvement of the Hagannah. The first letter bombs used by groups operating from the Middle East were made by Zionists and sent to British Cabinet Ministers in London in June 1947.

Economic sabotage was also first introduced by the Zionists. In 1939 the Haganah blew up the Iraqi oil pipeline near Haifa. Moshe Dayan was one of the participants in this act. The first airplane hijacking was committed by Israel. On 12 December 1954 Israel hijacked a civilian Syrian airliner shortly after take-off. In 1973, Israel shot down s Libyan civil aircraft (which strayed over Sinai in a sandstorm) killing all its 106 civilian passengers.

On Nov. 6 1944 Zionist belonging to Stern assassinated Lord Moyne, the British Minister Resident in the Middle East, in an ambush in Cairo (well beyond the borders of Palestine).

The first attack on a ship by terrorists was on November 25, 1940 when the S.S. Patria carrying illegal Jewish immigrants was attacked by Zionists with explosives in Haifa Harbor (attack was to embarrass the British and for rivalry among Jewish groups). 268 Jewish immigrants drowned.

On January 5, 1948, the Haganah forces planted bombs in the Palestinian-owned Semiramis Hotel in Jerusalem, killing 20, among them Viscount de Tapia, the Spanish consul.

etc

As for the first suicide bombing, well if the world had put a stop to the ethinic cleansing by israel as quickly as it dealt with the nazis then there would have been none by palestinians againt there occupiers, would there? It took decades of suffering before the terrible response of suicide bombings took place, decades.

***

but as i said ealier it doest address what it is that sawdust saw of gnarlie that he respects. maybe there isnt anything specific, its just the act of defending israel and the bigoted prejudice that that entails.

***

going back to -

quote:

... The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them

Would that be because there's a belief that said "Muslims" are not already part of humankind?

Unreal. And i take it this is/was part of a new york times article that is recieving praise from sawdust?

quote:

Originally posted by --Kate:

quote:

Originally posted by Sawdust:

I've glanced at some threads...

Welcome back, Sunrise.

Cheers Kate.

I see that sawdust was inspired to voice his respect for gnarlies defence of israel by a bigoted anti arab Muslim comment from someone else. and as if by magic, gnarlie responds by posting her own anti-arab bigoted view.

Brilliant, as they say. Well at least they have each other.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sunrise part two,

quote:

Originally posted by Sawdust:
I've glanced at some threads. There seems to me to be more anit Israel and Israeli rambelings on this board than I ever see from any other point of view. Also I see the Iraeli's as primarily reactive to the kind of activity that Ms. Sultan speaks of. Israel has no desire to remove Arabs from the Middle East. The same cannot be said for Arabs and their desire to remove Israeli's

I believe that Ms. Sultan points out the central problems with Muslim culture and they are the reason there are so many problems in the Muslim world. To fix a problem first you have to understand it. I believe Ms. Sultan understands it.

"primarily reactive "? What's that supposed to mean, that jews (israelis) wouldnt have enacted that terror campaign on the indigenous population of Palestine, if some decades later the Palestinian Arab population hadnt have had those suicidal tendancies. So the jews were only acting in some kind of pre emptive way to what the palestinian arabs would later do, no doubt because of them being 'different'. A kind of primarily reactive pre emptive action, israeli style.

Between 1947 to 1949, over 530 Palestinian villages were emptied of their populations by a process of ethnic cleansing including targeted terror with over 33 massacres according to Israeli and other historians. More than half of the Palestinian villages and towns were depopulated by Israeli military actions before Israel was established in May 15, 1948 and thus before the beginning of the first major Arab Israeli war according to Israeli historians. Israel also continued to terrorize the natives into leaving even after the hostilities ended and cease-fires were signed. This post war ethnic cleansing occurred in 64 of the 531 Palestinian localities depopulated according to Israeli historians.[/b]

More cross border massacres and terror ensued afterwards. 700 Israeli troops (Force 101) attacked the border village of Qibya on October 14, 1953. The troops led by a young commander, Ariel Sharon, used mortars, machine guns, rifles and explosives. 42 houses were blown up as well as the local schools and the mosque. Every man, woman and child found was murdered in cold blood (a total of 53 to 75 according to independent estimates). Ben-Gurion initially claims this was carried out by "Jewish terrorists" and not by the IDF but he later admitted government involvement. However, Qibya was only a minor massacre compared to those committed in Lebanon by Israel (e.g. at Tantura or Qana) or its paid cronies (at Sabra and Shatila etc.). Israeli actions were responsible in total for the killing of perhaps as many as 50,000 Palestinian and Lebanese civilians. Historians also now acknowledge that Israeli forces also executed hundreds of prisoners of war in the Sinai in 1967.


Sawdust, Jews lived in the ME before the European zionist jews arrived with there terror campaign and ethnic cleansing, beliefs. Iran has jews in their country/government, y'know (though i think "israel" disowns them or something). Its an anti zionist thing that the iranians have got going.

As for the central problem with muslim culture, as you put it sawdust, are you refering to the notion that muslims did not go like lambs to the slaughter as jews had once done. Is that the problem then?

***

Of course, if you are a bigoted racist then you may actaully be sincere in your belief that Jews dont do that sort of thing, that "the problem" lies with the other.

But you need to pretty damn ignorant to keep it up, intentionally ignorant.

And without the notion that Jews are better or superior than Arabs/Muslims by dint of being jews, then their argument for the continued suffering of palestinians melts away.

Well don't that beat all! Now I have been called a "bigoted racist" by the same people who recently called me a "Self hating Jew". I wish they would decide already which is true, and who I hate more.

Or is it just symptomatic of the free-for-all attitude on this board, where whatever epithets generate the most immediate revulsion is justified?

For example, nobody has yet called Dr Sultan (an Arab woman who wrote the aforementioned article) a bigoted racist, even though she has been more harshly crfitical of Islam and Arabs than I ever was. Jews who are critical of Israel are routinely praised as righteous, just, and often quoted interminably on these pages. Somehow they don't deserve the appelation of "Self hating Jew" like I do.

So once again, this is all a game of name-calling. I really don't blame Sawdust and others for seeing it as childish. Jews are deceitful wicked aggressors and Arabs are righteous innocent victims. Simple as that.

In any case, the topic seems undeserving of intelligent discussion, as we have seen in another discussion it is just an opportunity to paste mire-wallowing recitals of victimhood. You will notice there is no actual response to my posts. I guess the poster is too stupid to respond.

quote:

Originally posted by Gnarlodious:
Well don't that beat all! Now I have been called a "bigoted racist" by the same people who recently called me a "Self hating Jew". I wish they would decide already which is true, and who I hate more.
Orf is it just symptomatic of the free-for-all attitude on this board, where whatever epithets generate the most immediate revulsion is justified?

For example, nobody has yet called Dr Sultan (an Arab woman who wrote the aforementioned article) a bigoted racist, even though she has been more harshly crfitical of Islam and Arabs bthan I ever was. Jews who are critical of Israel are routinely praised as righteous, just, and often quoted interminably on these pages. Somehow they don't deserve the appelation of "Self hating Jew" like I do.

So once again, this is all a game of name-calling. I really don't blame Sawdust and others for seeing it as childish. Jews are deceitful wicked aggressors and Arabs are righteous innocent victims. Simple as that.

Reminiscent of the comment where you said -

quote:

Somehow, antisemitism has been around since long before Israel was reinstated but that fact is ignored.

as if you'd posted on the wrong thread (damn ignorant ... intentionally ignorant).

see here for thread in question.

***

The hope that you would back up what you've said with actual quotes is none existent, as far as i'm concerned.

quote:

In any case, the topic seems undeserving of intelligent discussion, as we have seen in another discussion it is just an opportunity to paste mire-wallowing recitals of victimhood. You will notice there is no actual response to my posts. I guess the poster is too stupid to respond.

Boo hoo, boo hoo hoo, poor poor Gnarl "the topic seems undeserving of intelligent discussion".



Well, "mire-wallowing recitals of victimhood", and -

quote:

Originally posted by Gnarlodious:
Sawdust:
Thanks for the vote of confidence. It is not so much that I am a defender of Israel, but hopefully can stimulate some reasonableness in the debate. Since there is no end of people who will post extended anti-Israel diatribes, it falls to me to be the opposition. In a rabidly anti-Arab discussion I would no doubt come to the defense of the Arabs.

The brave woman the NYT article refers to, she takes her life in her hands by saying those things. We hope that at some time in the future the Arabs graduate from the medieval mentality of theirs and stop warring with the civilized world.

no doubt.

As for those

quote:

bigoted anti Muslim comment[s] from someone else

, especially the bit about -

quote:

Speaking of the Holocaust, she said, ...

She went on, "We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. ...

Watch this space

Well Sunrise, you probably didn't notice that I don't hang out at these board calling everyone I disagree with a bigoted racist, that is your job description. I also don't post long-winded articles listing the wrongs done by some race against another, that task falls to less expansive personalities. I don't believe urging one nation to attack another is "Liberal Politics", while apparently some people do believe that.

So as a result, I don't think of you a a "Liberal". If you ever post any "Liberal" content, I never see it. For all I know, you are a totally rightwing antisemitic anarchist.

Gnarlie,
no a nihilist seems more appropriate.

quote:

Political philosophy

Nihilism was not a political movement. It was a youth culture. Nevertheless, it led to the politization and radicalization of the Russian youth. Many revolutionaries like Nikolai Tchaikovsky, Sophia Perovskaya, Sergei Kravchinski, Vera Zasulich and Sergey Nechayev were adept of Nihilist values.

Nihilist political philosophy rejected all religious and political authority, social traditions, and traditional morality as standing in opposition to freedom, the ultimate ideal. In this sense, it can be seen as an extreme form of anarchism, but devoid of a revolutionary programme or political strategy.

Nihilism greatly resembled anarchism, though there are three main differences:

1. Nihilism did not see the State as absolutely bad. Reforms that would lead to fundamental changes in society were considered to be possible. This is not the case with anarchism.
2. Nihilism was more along the lines of a cultural rejection of all systems of authority and all social conventions. Anarchism is more along the lines of a political strategy which puts more emphasis on promoting and furthering a definite constructive revolutionary programme, although anarchism definitely places importance on opposing systems of authority as well.
3. As a political movement, nihilism was primarily a Russian phenomenon.

The Nihilism movement differs from the modern philosophical concept of nihilism, literally meaning belief in nothing, which supposes that human existence has no purpose, meaning, or essential value. To the contrary, Russian Nihilists had very strong beliefs that they were willing to risk their lives for. What they had in common was a belief that the existing establishment had no value.

Nihilist movement

Thank you Ronald, that was exceedingly informative. And true.
I have known many Russians in my life and it does explain some of their personality orientations. There is a hebrew word that translates to "Rejectionist" that is more descriptive of that Russian trait. Ironically, my father, the Russian Jew, was Nihilistic to the eyeballs. That is probably why I am so skeptical that the philosophy has any pragmatic value. Blanket rejection of all social value systems seems to be its symptom, and that does remind me of some of the cornballs here.

Rarely does Ronald present something informative, and I'm not sure he has posted an exception in this regard, especially when the insight the information provides is:

quote:

I have known many Russians in my life and it does explain some of their personality orientations.

So, I guess all this thread really is designed to do is welcome Sunrise back and offer Sunrise an opportunity to entertain you with his insight on your prejudices.

And Kate you are rarely so wrong.

"Nihilist political philosophy rejected all religious and political authority, social traditions, and traditional morality as standing in opposition to freedom, the ultimate ideal. In this sense, it can be seen as an extreme form of anarchism, but devoid of a revolutionary programme or political strategy."

Sums it up perfectly. If you stand for nothing you will fall for anything.

quote:

Originally posted by Gnarlodious:
Well Sunrise, you probably didn't notice that I don't hang out at these board calling everyone I disagree with a bigoted racist, that is your job description. I also don't post long-winded articles listing the wrongs done by some race against another, that task falls to less expansive personalities. I don't believe urging one nation to attack another is "Liberal Politics", while apparently some people do believe that.

So as a result, I don't think of you a a "Liberal". If you ever post any "Liberal" content, I never see it. For all I know, you are a totally rightwing antisemitic anarchist.

Still playing the poor victim then, eh Gnarly.

You'd notice, if you werent such a bigoted racist, that the posting you are refering to was in response to the bigoted anti muslim comments from someone else (and relevant comments; the 'inspiration' for this thread, as Sawdust claims) who doesnt seem to think that jews do that kind of thing. That, after all, was the point she (the writer of the article and others including sawdust) was making, was it not.

***

Again, Gnarly, you have made a statement (baseless accusation?) that you think i am (could be, because ive not posted anything "liberal?) a - "totally rightwing antisemitic anarchist" without backing it up with any quotes. Still trying to "convince" people i see. Followed by Ronald followed by Camp.

i watched a documentary not too long ago about the holocaust, where a jewish survivor was being interviewed, maybe you've seen it. At one point he tells what took place on one of the train transports. He's seated in a corner of the carriage on one of the few seats on the over crowded train. A 'fellow' prisoner comes up to him and offers his cigerette stash for access to the seat, the jewish guy and his friends take the cigerettes and smoke them, they dont get up. The fellow prisoner speaks up, and the group of jewish guys beat him to the floor und sit on him until he suffocates and dies, then they throw his his body off the train. The mans only crime, as they say, was that he was German. Well, apart from what ever the German Nazis had sent him on a transport with jewish prisoners for.


***

As for what i "stand for" and having an opinion and all the rest of the personal interest in me generated by the likes of Ronald, Gnarly and Camp. I realised long ago on my many travels and varied exploits, that people often group together on what they hate, as if its the common interest that binds them or something. It appears, here, that i being encouraged to have a detrimental opinion of something, or some group or other. And if i dont express any such clear prejudice then one will be given by those that project themselves onto others in such ways. As if that is the way a person is defined.

Tis the natural advantage of strong people, who have remembered they r love, to bring out crucial questions and form a clear opinion of them. The weak, who dont understand their fears, decide Btween alternatives that r not their own.

'you are either with us, or with the terrorist', comes to mind.

***

Going back to the idea/notion that zionist jews travelled to palestine on the run from nazi europe and settled there peacefully, giving the arab/muslim population all the comforts of a modern society. Only to have muslims (Because they're different?), some several decades later, turn to terrorizing the jews with bombings etc. What is the death count inflicted on each side in the conflict this year? last time i noticed, it was over fifty dead palestinians (including women and children, arabs/muslims?) and no israelis.

Where's the "indignation", eh Sawdust.

***

WaSPR Delegation Diary 9: Two Traumatized Peoples Trapped by Violence and Fear

***

So Pro-Israel That it Hurts

***

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sunrise part two,

As usual, Sunrise, you sound like you are trying to make a point but fall flat on your face. Either I am too dense to make the connection or you are psychotic. In the future, you should spell out your allegories so I can at least attempt to understand your point.

For SRP2

You continue to manage to type nothing of substance.

Walter Lippman was the genious behind many treatises on critcal discourse and he also had to put the "meaningful" qualifier to all opposing views so that the nihilists would not simply play rubber and glue and would be forced to add some substance to the dialogue.

You offer no step forward, ever.

It's hard to throw stones while you're holding hands, but, Camp and Gnarly, you've managed.

It's good to have human connections, for sure.

Still, I'm not sure what your ultimate goal is, other than to hold hands, as Sunrise has well articulated when he said:

quote:

As for what i "stand for" and having an opinion and all the rest of the personal interest in me generated by the likes of Ronald, Gnarly and Camp. I realised long ago on my many travels and varied exploits, that people often group together on what they hate, as if its the common interest that binds them or something. It appears, here, that i being encouraged to have a detrimental opinion of something, or some group or other. And if i dont express any such clear prejudice then one will be given by those that project themselves onto others in such ways. As if that is the way a person is defined.

Tis the natural advantage of strong people, who have remembered they r love, to bring out crucial questions and form a clear opinion of them. The weak, who dont understand their fears, decide Btween alternatives that r not their own.

'you are either with us, or with the terrorist', comes to mind.

... earlier this morning

quote:

Originally posted by Camp:
And Kate you are rarely so wrong.

"Nihilist political philosophy rejected all religious and political authority, social traditions, and traditional morality as standing in opposition to freedom, the ultimate ideal. In this sense, it can be seen as an extreme form of anarchism, but devoid of a revolutionary programme or political strategy."

Sums it up perfectly. If you stand for nothing you will fall for anything.

Also from Ronald's quote:

quote:

The Nihilism movement differs from the modern philosophical concept of nihilism, literally meaning belief in nothing, which supposes that human existence has no purpose, meaning, or essential value. To the contrary, Russian Nihilists had very strong beliefs that they were willing to risk their lives for. What they had in common was a belief that the existing establishment had no value.

Leadin to Ronald's Wikipedia link:

quote:

The Nihilist movement was an 1860s Russian cultural movement marked by the questioning of the validity of all forms of preconceived ideas and social norms. It is derived from the Latin word "Nihil", which means "nothing". The Nihilists championed the independence of the individual and shocked the Russian establishment.

Another paragraph from Ronald's link intended to describe Sunrise:

quote:

Nihilists refused to enjoy the wealth of their parents. They saw those as being produced by slavery, and for that reason, preferred to live a commoner's life. They flocked to university towns. Women were denied higher education, so they went to learn a profession instead. This would save them both from the yoke of their parents and future husbands. Nihilists both wanted to become independent through learning, and use their knowledge to educate the people. This "go to the people -- be the people" campaign reached its height in the 1870s, during which decade many underground groups like the Circle of Tchaikovsky, the People's Reprisal and Land and Liberty were formed. This became known as the Narodnik movement, which followed the philosophy of Narodism.

Interesting, Ren, Just like the Hippies. Maybe even Bohemians fall into that movement.

I did live with some Druze Arabs for about 3 months. I remember once they brought a VCR movie, Pink Floyd's The Wall. We all crammed into this little room with a TV to watch the movie, we we pretty isolated out there in that village. I remember distinctly their reaction to the nihilistic theme of the movie, their fascination with the movie, especially with the self-mutilation scenes. I don't remember anything about the movie because I thought it was stupid and pointless, but since it is generally recognized as a nihilistic movie suddenly today it makes sense in the light of Ron's Wikipedia article.

Yes, I think I can understand the mind that has forsaken all urge to create a viable earthly existence. Freedom, then, is really the freedom to die gloriously, and as a martyr. If you don't want to die, freedom may mean the right to do whatever you want with no social considerations. This does remind me somewhat of the Ayn Rand libertarian ideal, where society imposes no obligations on its members.

That rejection of the societal imperative may even be hereditary, as it does seem like groups develop it over generations of governmental failure...

Gnarly, not sure what connections you see between "The Wall", these points from Ronald's article:

quote:

The Nihilist movement was an 1860s Russian cultural movement marked by the questioning of the validity of all forms of preconceived ideas and social norms. It is derived from the Latin word "Nihil", which means "nothing". The Nihilists championed the independence of the individual and shocked the Russian establishment.

quote:

Nihilists refused to enjoy the wealth of their parents. They saw those as being produced by slavery, and for that reason, preferred to live a commoner's life. They flocked to university towns. Women were denied higher education, so they went to learn a profession instead. This would save them both from the yoke of their parents and future husbands. Nihilists both wanted to become independent through learning, and use their knowledge to educate the people. This "go to the people -- be the people" campaign reached its height in the 1870s, during which decade many underground groups like the Circle of Tchaikovsky, the People's Reprisal and Land and Liberty were formed. This became known as the Narodnik movement, which followed the philosophy of Narodism.

and your point:

quote:

Yes, I think I can understand the mind that has forsaken all urge to create a viable earthly existence. Freedom, then, is really the freedom to die gloriously, and as a martyr.

quote:

It's hard to throw stones while you're holding hands, but, Camp and Gnarly, you've managed.

It's good to have human connections, for sure.

Still, I'm not sure what your ultimate goal is, other than to hold hands, as Sunrise has well articulated when he said:

So if I ask "Where's the beef?" it is groupthink and labelling?

I am just in search of substance.

I asked Miles what he would do in a constructive sense recently and he was unable to answer.

Alternatives require substance or we are all really sheeple to the NWO oligarchy.

As we have seen on this thread, we are all just puny individuals who are desperately trying to misunderstand each other

She went on, "We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people."


I guess you missed what those teenagers were doing, you know burning down churches?

quote:

I've glanced at some threads. There seems to me to be more anit Israel and Israeli rambelings on this board than I ever see from any other point of view. Also I see the Iraeli's as primarily reactive to the kind of activity that Ms. Sultan speaks of. Israel has no desire to remove Arabs from the Middle East. The same cannot be said for Arabs and their desire to remove Israeli's

1. "There is a huge gap between us (Jews) and our enemies ­not just in ability but in morality, culture, sanctity of life, and conscience. They are our neighbors here, but it seems as if at a distance of a few hundred meters away, there are people who do not belong to our continent, to our world, but actually belong to a different galaxy." Israeli president Moshe Katsav. The Jerusalem Post, May 10, 2001
2. "The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more".... Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

3. " [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs." Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts". New Statesman, 25 June 1982.

4. "The Palestinians" would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." " Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

5. "When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.

6. "How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." Golda Maier, March 8, 1969.

7. "There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed." Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969

8. "The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war." Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972.

9. David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

10. Ben Gurion also warned in 1948 : "We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do return." Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. "The old will die and the young will forget."

11. "We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

12. "Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." - Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio. (Certainly the FBI's cover-up of the Israeli spy ring/phone tap scandal suggests that Mr. Sharon may not have been joking.)

13. "We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours." Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces - Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.

14. "We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return" David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, 18 July 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar's Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet, Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.

15. "We should prepare to go over to the offensive. Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai." David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

16. "We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum"

17. "Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969.

18. "We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'" Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

19. Rabin's description of the conquest of Lydda, after the completion of Plan Dalet. "We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters" Uri Lubrani, PM Ben-Gurion's special adviser on Arab Affairs, 1960. From "The Arabs in Israel" by Sabri Jiryas.

20. "There are some who believe that the non-Jewish population, even in a high percentage, within our borders will be more effectively under our surveillance; and there are some who believe the contrary, i.e., that it is easier to carry out surveillance over the activities of a neighbor than over those of a tenant. [I] tend to support the latter view and have an additional argument:...the need to sustain the character of the state which will henceforth be Jewish...with a non-Jewish minority limited to 15 percent. I had already reached this fundamental position as early as 1940 [and] it is entered in my diary." Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Agency's Colonization Department. From Israel: an Apartheid State by Uri Davis, p.5.

21. "Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them." Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

22. "It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism,colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.

23. "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly." Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine,Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.

24. "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." -- Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1]

25. "We Jews, we are the destroyers and will remain the destroyers. Nothing you can do will meet our demands and needs. We will forever destroy because we want a world of our own." (You Gentiles, by Jewish Author Maurice Samuels, p. 155).

26. "We will have a world government whether you like it or not. The only question is whether that government will be achieved by conquest or consent." (Jewish Banker Paul Warburg, February 17, 1950, as he testified before the U.S. Senate).

27. "We will establish ourselves in Palestine whether you like it or not...You can hasten our arrival or you can equally retard it. It is however better for you to help us so as to avoid our constructive powers being turned into a destructive power which will overthrow the world." (Chaim Weizmann, Published in "Judische Rundschau," No. 4, 1920)


"We enthusiastically chose to become a colonial society, ignoring international treaties, expropriating lands, transferring settlers from Israel to the occupied territories, engaging in theft and finding justification for all these activities. Passionately desiring to keep the occupied territories, we developed two judicial systems: one - progressive, liberal - in Israel; and the other - cruel, injurious - in the occupied territories. In effect, we established an apartheid regime in the occupied territories immediately following their capture. That oppressive regime exists to this day."
(Michael Ben-Yair, 3 March 2002)



"Accusations made by a well-established society about how a people it is oppressing is breaking rules to attain its rights do not have much credence."
(Shlomo Ben-Ami, 2000)



"We'll make a pastrami sandwich of them, ... we'll insert a strip of Jewish settlements in between the Palestinians, and then another strip of Jewish settlements right across the West Bank, so that in 25 years' time, neither the United Nations nor the United States, nobody, will be able to tear it apart."
(Ariel (Arik) Sharon, 1973)



"People are scared in this country [the US], to say wrong is wrong because the Jewish lobby is powerful - very powerful. Well, so what? For goodness sake, this is God's world! We live in a moral universe. The apartheid government was very powerful, but today it no longer exists. Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Pinochet, Milosevic, and Idi Amin were all powerful, but in the end they bit the dust. Injustice and oppression will never prevail. Those who are powerful have to remember the litmus test that God gives to the powerful: what is your treatment of the poor, the hungry, the voiceless? And on the basis of that, God passes judgment. We should put out a clarion call to the government of the people of Israel, to the Palestinian people and say: peace is possible, peace based on justice is possible. We will do all we can to assist you to achieve this peace, because it is God's dream, and you will be able to live amicably together as sisters and brothers."
(Desmond Tutu, April 2002)



"[T]here is no single fixed method for murder and not even for genocide. The author Y. L. Peretz wrote about "the righteous cat" who does not spill blood, but only suffocates. The government of Israel, using the military and its instruments of destruction, is not only spilling blood, but it is also suffocating. ... Of course with our self-righteousness, with our self-adoration in our "Jewish ethics" we make sure to advertise how beautifully the doctors take care of Palestinian victims in the hospitals. We do not advertise how many of those are executed in cold blood in their own homes. So it's not yet genocide of the terrible and unique style of which we were past victims. And as one of the smart Generals told me, we do not have crematoria and gas chambers. Is anything less than that consistent with Jewish ethics? Did he ever hear how an entire people said that it did not know what was done in its name?"
(Shulamit Aloni, March 2003)



"The United States has an absolute, uncompromising commitment to Israel's security and an absolute conviction that Israel alone must decide the steps necessary to ensure that security. That is Israel's prerogative. We accept that. We endorse that. Whatever Israel decides cannot, will not, will never, not ever, alter our fundamental commitment to her security."
(Al Gore, 18 May 2000)



"I first visited Israel in 2000. I already then felt that I am returning home despite the fact that this was a place I never visited. I have a deep affinity with Israel. I have always admired the history of the State of Israel and the hardness and determination of the people that founded it. ... I am also the daughter of a Presbyterian minister and was brought up on the very moving stories of the Holy Land. They mean a lot to me. When I first visited Mt. Olives, Lake Kinneret, Jerusalem, I felt a very deep emotional experience."
(Condoleezza Rice, May 2003)



"Let there be no doubt -- the United States of America stands with the State of Israel also because it is in our national interests to stand with the State of Israel."
(Nancy Pelosi, April 1, 2003)



"I have learned that the state of Israel cannot be ruled in our generation without deceit and adventurism."
(Moshe Shertok, 1950s)



"Let us approach them [the Palestinian refugees in the occupied territories] and say that we have no solution, that you shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wants to can leave -- and we will see where this process leads. In five years we may have 200,000 less people - and that is a matter of enormous importance."
(Moshe Dayan, September 1967)



"God bless you. God bless our men and women serving on the frontlines today. And God bless our special relationship between the United States of America and the State of Israel."
(Nancy Pelosi, April 1, 2003)



"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves .. politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. ... Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice."
(David Ben-Gurion, 1938)



". it's utterly hypocritical for Israelis to wonder aloud why Palestinians don't pursue a non-violent strategy. One obvious reason is that, whenever they have, Israel brutally represses it."
(Norman G. Finkelstein, 11 September 2003)



"The Promised Land extends from the River of Egypt to the Euphrates. It includes parts of Syria and Lebanon."
(Yehudah Leib Fischmann, 1947)



"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them."
(Ariel (Arik) Sharon, 17 Bovember 1998)



"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, 'What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'"
(Yitzhak Rabin, July 1948)



"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal Al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
(Moshe Dayan, 4 April 1969)



"Ours will be a brutal land of pens stretching between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean that will make South African apartheid pale."
(Yigal Bronner, 17 September 2003)



"Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs. What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct. The mandates have no sanction but that of the last war. Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home. The nobler course would be to insist on a just treatment of the Jews wherever they are born and bred. The Jews born in France are French in precisely the same sense that Christians born in France are French."
(Mahatma Gandhi, 26 November 1938)



"Sharon certainly does have a plan: to protect Eretz Yisrael, avoid returning any territories and make sure the settlements stay where they are. Everything else is tactics."
(Aluf Benn, 18 September 2003)



"Arabs in Israel ... have no right to serve in the Israel Defense Forces, to marry a Jew in Israel according to state law, or even to study in the language of the majority."
(Amnon Rubinstein, 18 September 2003)



" We live in a thunderously failed reality. ... A state lacking justice cannot survive. ... Even if the Arabs lower their heads and swallow their shame and anger for ever, it won't work. A structure built on human callousness will inevitably collapse in on itself. Note this moment well: Zionism's superstructure is already collapsing like a cheap Jerusalem wedding hall."
(Avraham Burg, 15 September 2003)



"Israel, having ceased to care about the children of the Palestinians, should not be surprised when they come washed in hatred and blow themselves up in the centres of Israeli escapism. They consign themselves to Allah in our places of recreation, because their own lives are torture. They spill their own blood in our restaurants in order to ruin our appetites, because they have children and parents at home who are hungry and humiliated."
(Avraham Burg, 15 September 2003)



"Between the Jordan and the Mediterranean there is no longer a clear Jewish majority. And so, fellow citizens, it is not possible to keep the whole thing without paying a price. We cannot keep a Palestinian majority under an Israeli boot and at the same time think ourselves the only democracy in the Middle East. There cannot be democracy without equal rights for all who live here, Arab as well as Jew. We cannot keep the territories and preserve a Jewish majority in the world's only Jewish state"
(Avraham Burg, 15 September 2003)



"Do you want democracy? No problem. Either abandon the greater land of Israel, to the last settlement and outpost, or give full citizenship and voting rights to everyone, including Arabs. The result, of course, will be that those who did not want a Palestinian state alongside us will have one in our midst, via the ballot box. The prime minister should present the choices forthrightly: Jewish racism or democracy. Settlements, or hope for both peoples."
(Avraham Burg, 15 September 2003)



"The British told us that there are some hundred thousand negroes ['kushim'] and for those there is no value."
(Chaim Weizmann, around 1917)



"We must expropriate gently the private property on the state assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it employment in our country. The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly. Let the owners of the immoveable property believe that they are cheating us, selling us things for more than they are worth. But we are not going to sell them anything back."
(Theodore Herzl, 12 June 1895)



"Exploiting the genuine security related worries of the Israeli people and the majority's wish for a political parting from the Palestinians, the Sharon government is constructing a system of fences that will not achieve separation, that will not draw a border, and that will not, eventually, bring security. What we are facing in the "fence" is yet another typical, thoroughly calculated "Sharonic" act of deception. The real purpose of the walls is very different. They are intended as another layer--maybe the ultimate one--in the complex matrix of control which constitutes the Israeli occupation: the settlements, the roads, the roadblocks, the curfews, the closures, and the use of brute military force. The walls that Sharon is building now are intended to render Israel's hold over the land it captured in 1967 irreversible. They are the last nail in the coffin of the two-states solution. We shall wake up, in another year and a half from now, to a drastically different reality: a cruel state consisting of pens enclosures will stretch between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean."
(Yigal Bronner, 23 September 2003)



"Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother."
(Moshe Dayan, unknown date)



"Consider Jenin and Warsaw. In both cases, the world, Western democratic countries stood by and watched the slaughter. Horrified but unwilling to act. But today, in Jenin, unlike during the Nazi slaughter of the Jews in Warsaw, no one can say they didn't know."
(James Petras, April 2002)



"[I]n Palestine we do not propose even to go through the form of consulting the wishes of the present inhabitants of the country ... The four powers are committed to Zionism and Zionism, be it right or wrong, good or bad, is rooted in age-long tradition, in present needs, in future hopes, of far profounder import than the desire and prejudices of the 700,000 Arabs who now inhabit that ancient land."
(Arthur James Balfour, 11 August 1919)



"There is no terrible regime - Columbia, Guatemala, Uruguay, Argentina and Chile during the time of the colonels, Burma, Taiwan, Zaire, Liberia, Congo, Sierra Leone - there is not one that does not have a major military connection to Israel. Israeli arms dealers are there [acting as] mercenaries - the guy behind Noriega was Michael Harari, an Israeli, who got out of Panama. Israeli mercenaries in Sierra Leone go around the UN boycotts of what are called blood diamonds, same in Angola. Israel was very involved in South Africa, of course, during the apartheid regime."
(Jeff Halper, 20 September 2003)



"Israel has also become the main subcontractor of American arms. Just last year, Israel signed a contract to train and equip the Chinese army. It signed another multi-billion dollar contract to train and equip the Indian army. What is it equipping them with? It is equipping them with American weapons."
(Jeff Halper, 20 September 2003)



"When AIPAC sells Israel to Congress, it doesn't go to Congressmen and ask them to support Israel because it is Judeo-Christian, or because it is the 'only democracy in the Middle East,' which it also does. It sells it on this basis: 'You are a member of Congress and it is your responsibility to support Israel, because this is how many industries in your state have business links to Israel, this is how many military research people are sitting in universities in your district, this is how many jobs in your district are dependent on the military and the defence industry,' and they translate it down to the extent to which your district is dependent on Israel. Therefore, if you are voting against Israel, you are voting against the goose that lays the golden egg. In most of the districts in the United States, members of Congress have a great dependence on the military. More than half of industrial employment in California is in one way or another connected to defence. Israel is right there, right in the middle of it all. And that is part of its strength."
(Jeff Halper, 20 September 2003)



"Israel is very important, because on the one hand it is a very sophisticated, high-tech, arms developer and dealer. But on the other hand, there are no ethical or moral constraints: there is no Congress, there are no human rights concerns, there are no laws against taking bribes - the Israeli government can do anything it wants to. So you have very sophisticated rogue state - not a Libyan rogue state, but a high tech, military-expert rogue state. Now that is tremendously useful, both for Europe and for the United States. For example, there are American Congressional constraints on selling arms to China because of China's human rights problems. So what Israel does is it tinkers with American arms just enough that they can be considered Israeli arms, and in that way bypasses Congress."
(Jeff Halper, 20 September 2003)



"I don't think we can dismantle the matrix of control. I think it has gone too far, and that the occupation is permanent. We are in a state of apartheid. But not everybody agrees with me - Uri Avnery doesn't agree with me, the people who are in favour of a two-state solution still think that we can end the occupation, or that we can roll it back enough that a Palestinian state will emerge. But the danger in being for a Palestinian state is that if you don't understand the control dimensions, then you are actually agitating for a Bantustan. I mean, Sharon also wants a Palestinian state; he wants a state that is completely controlled by Israel. So if you only look at territory and you don't look at the issue of control, you end up advocating a Bantustan."
(Jeff Halper, 20 September 2003)



"I was recently at a conference with John Dugard, who is now the Special Rapporteur of the UN Commission on Human Rights for the Occupations Palestinian Territories, and is originally from South Africa. He was (jokingly) offended that apartheid was being maligned [by its comparison the Israeli occupation]. In South Africa you didn't have apartheid on the roads, you didn't have walls being constructed."
(Jessica Montell, September 21, 2003)



"We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force. ... Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: "Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother." I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen, before Israel goes under."
(Martin van Creveld, 2003)



" We must define our position and lay down basic principles for a settlement. Our demands should be moderate and balanced, and appear to be reasonable. But in fact they must involve such conditions as to ensure that the enemy rejects them. Then we should manoeuvre and allow him to define his own position, and reject a settlement on the basis of a compromise position. We should then publish his demands as embodying unreasonable extremism."
(Yehoshafat Harkabi, 2 November 1973)



"Following 70 years of intensive excavations in the Land of Israel, archaeologists have found out: The patriarchs' acts are legendary, the Israelites did not sojourn in Egypt or make an exodus, they did not conquer the land. Neither is there any mention of the empire of David and Solomon, nor of the source of belief in the God of Israel. These facts have been known for years, but Israel is a stubborn people and nobody wants to hear about it."
(Ze'ev Herzog, 29 October 1999)



"All these events [in the biblical books of Exodus and Joshua] are practically contradicted by archaeology."
(Ze'ev Herzog, 23 December 1999)



"Even orders given by a government elected by a perfectly formal democratic process can be criminal orders. The French in their colonies and the Americans in Vietnam provided classic examples of war crimes perpetrated by democratic governments."
(Ze'ev (Zeev) Sternhell, 17 October 2003)



"In fact, I cannot think of any other country on earth that, in full view of nightly TV audiences, has performed such miracles of detailed sadism against an entire society and gotten away with it."
(Edward Said, September 25, 2003)



"The obvious intention of the Israeli government is to see that the reality of forced poverty and starvation, brought on by the imposition of the wall and the new "closed zones" become so unbearable for communities in the northern West Bank that people choose to leave in the hope of finding a better life. The village of Jubara is just one of many cases being fatally affected in this latest attempt by Israel and its military to cleanse the recently seized "closed zone" of all its Palestinian inhabitants and thus annex the land, and its existing illegal settlers to Israel proper."
(Mustafa (Mustapha) Barghouti, October 27, 2003)



"DiY media analysis: It is relatively easy to locate bias and imbalances in the media. An obvious way into it is to note the language used to describe news actors and assess whether the same words are used for similar actions or behaviours. Look for the language used to describe political stories. Who are the 'terrorists'?; and who the 'activists', 'fighters' or 'guerrillas'? Which governments are described in negative terms as 'extreme' or 'corrupt' and which in more positive terms? Check which side in a conflict are said to 'kill', 'murder' or commit 'massacres' and which are said simply to 'respond', 'strike' or commit actions which result in 'deaths'? Is it always the case that these descriptors are simply factual terms?"
(David Miller, 2003)



"It's been a long time since I've felt so small, uncomfortable and red-faced as during the show of whining and whimpering organized by Israel at The Hague. ... The Palestinians are fighting occupation and we want the world to stand by us as we pay the price for that occupation. Sooner or later, the fence will fall, just like the Berlin Wall. ... Exploiting bereavement and wallowing in self-pity is fitting for soap operas - not for the strongest country in the Middle East."
(Yoel Marcus, 27 February 2004)



"Is it conceivable that somebody on our side has decided that all of Palestinian society is the target? ... [Israel's] war without questions intensifies and broadens the circles of hatred for generations."
(Alex Fishman, October 2003)



"The depressing truth is that Israel's current behavior is not just bad for America, though it surely is. It is not even just bad for Israel itself, as many Israelis silently acknowledge. The depressing truth is that Israel today is bad for the Jews."
(Tony Judt, 23 October 2003)



"While Israeli forces were engaged in what many termed a brutal - some even say criminal - campaign to crush Palestinian militants and terrorist cells in West Bank towns, U.S. military officials were in Israel seeing what they could learn from that urban fight."
(Christian Lowe, 10 June 2002)



"[Y]ou have here in the United States the very powerful role played by the Israel lobby on Amnesty International USA. They are very powerful; they apply enormous pressure on Amnesty International USA, headquartered in New York. Amnesty International USA pretty much kowtows to them, and they use contributions to make sure that Amnesty International USA tows the line on Israel, and Amnesty International USA pays about 20% of the London budget. So that has an impact over in London too."
(Francis Boyle, Summer 2002)



"make their life so bitter that they will transfer themselves willingly"
(Binyamin (Benny) Elon, some date around 2003)



"[Some people believe] a mistaken claim holding that Zionism's main rationale was to create a sanctuary for persecuted Jews"
(David Breakstone, 5 November 2003)



"I am prepared, as an American and a Jew, to make the well being of Israel my primary concern"
(Gary Rosenblatt, 7 November 2003)



"The delusions, the self-righteousness, and the disassociation from a hostile world and the distancing from universal norms are symptoms of a society sinking into apartheid, as the South Africans who experienced that descent can attest. The hiding behind anti-Semitism may make an impression on the Europeans, but it will not be long before the ostracism will penetrate the walls of self-righteousness and bring them crashing down."
(Meron Benvenisti, 6 November 2003)



"The issue of Palestinian refugees resonated with me because I myself was a refugee. ... We came to the U.S. in August 1944 as part of a token group of about 1,000 mostly Jewish refugees ... In 1987, when I read Simha Flapan's The Birth of Israel: Myths and Realities, I was so shocked and disbelieving that it took me a second reading of his book to come to terms with what he wrote at the outset: that the 1948 war was as needless and unnecessary for the "security" of Israel as was the Israeli invasion of Lebanon of 1982. I learned that ... the 1948 war was not defensive, but a war to gain more territory than the U.N. had allotted for the Jewish state and to "cleanse" the area of Palestinian Arabs. I learned that even before the May 15 invasion by Arab armies, Jewish forces had succeeded in expelling some 300,000 Palestinians from their homes, but another 400,000 Palestinians remained in areas that the Jews coveted. Since the Jewish population of Palestine in 1948 was only about 600,000, the Ben-Gurion leadership required war in order to rid the new Jewish state of most of its Arab population."
(Ronald Bleier, November 1992)



"The guideline of our policy has always been the idea that a permanent situation of no peace and a latent war is the best situation for us, and that it must be maintained at all costs. ... we are becoming stronger year by year in a situation of impending conflict where it is possible that actual fighting may break out from time to time. SUch wars will usually be short and the results guaranteed in advance, since the gap between us and the Arabs is increasing. In this way we shall move on from occupation to further occupation. ... this criminally mischievous policy has led us into the crisis we are living through today"
(Yeshayahu Leibowitz, 30 November 1973)



"We have not been seeking peace for twenty-five years -- all declarations to that effect have been no more than coloured statements or deliberate lies. There is of course no assurance that we could have made peace with the Arabs if we had wanted to. However, it has to be heavily emphasized that we have not only made no attempts to seek peace, but have deliberately and with premeditation, sabotaged every possibility of doing so."
(Yeshayahu Leibowitz, 30 November 1973)



"I want the Arabs to see Jewish lights every night 500 meters from them."
(Ariel (Arik) Sharon, 1980)



"We're involved here ... in a struggle for the existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jews, as opposed to those who want to force us to be a state of all its citizens."
(Limor Livnat, 2002)



"Indeed, the most pernicious aspect of a political philosophy like Zionism that masquerades as democratic is that it requires an enemy in order to survive and, where an enemy does not already exist, it requires that one be created. In order to justify racist repression and dispossession, particularly in a system purporting to be democratic, those being repressed and displaced must be portrayed as murderous and predatory. And in order to keep its own population in line, to prevent a humane people from objecting to their own government's repressive policies, it requires that fear be instilled in the population: fear of "the other," fear of the terrorist, fear of the Jew-hater. The Jews of Israel must always be made to believe that they are the preyed-upon. This justifies having forced these enemies to leave, it justifies discriminating against those who remained, it justifies denying democratic rights to those who later came under Israel's control in the occupied territories."
(Kathleen Christison, 8 November 2003)



"I think that everyone who lives with the contradictions of Zionism condemns himself to protracted madness. It's impossible to live like this. It's impossible to live with such a tremendous wrong. It's impossible to live with such conflicting moral criteria. When I see not only the settlements and the occupation and the suppression, but now also the insane wall that the Israelis are trying to hide behind, I have to conclude that there is something very deep here in our attitude to the indigenous people of this land that drives us out of our minds."
(Haim Hanegbi, 8 August 2003)



"It would be quite astounding if Israel, the US's most loyal ally, which we now know has at least one secret prison, wasn't offering its services to the US. Israel has decades of expertise in torturing and interrogating Arab prisoners -- exactly the skills the Americans now need since the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq."
(Dalia Kerstein, November 2003)



"Trying to eliminate Saddam...would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible.... We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq.... there was no viable "exit strategy" we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land."
(George H. W. Bush, September 1998)



"Our claim that Israel has fulfilled its side of the 'road map' is seen as lacking credibility because not only have we not evacuated the illegal outposts, we are working in every way to whitewash their existence and build more."
(Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Autumn 2003)



"We don't have unlimited time ... More and more Palestinians are uninterested in a negotiated, two-state solution, because they want to change the essence of the conflict from an Algerian paradigm to a South African one. From a struggle against 'occupation,' in their parlance, to a struggle for one-man-one-vote. That is, of course, a much cleaner struggle, a much more popular struggle - and ultimately a much more powerful one. For us, it would mean the end of the Jewish state."
(Ehud Olmert, November 2003)



"We don't have unlimited time ... More and more Palestinians are uninterested in a negotiated, two-state solution ... we may have to espouse unilateral separation. We won't need the Palestinians' support for that. What we would need is to pull ourselves together, to determine where the line should run. ... [The fence would] ultimately become part of [the unilateral plan]"
(Ehud Olmert, November 2003)



"The fear of the loss of the majority has already yielded plans for campaigns against the danger, such as the projects for increasing the Jewish birth rate, granting voting rights to expatriates or even to Jews wherever they may be."
(Meron Benvenisti, 20 November 2003)



"Israel and the Palestinians are sinking together into the mud of the "one state." The question is no longer whether it will be binational, but which model to choose."
(Meron Benvenisti, 20 November 2003)



"It's a unitary state controlled by one dominant national group, which leaves the other national group disenfranchised and subject to laws "for natives only," which for the purposes of respectability and international law are known as laws of "belligerent occupation." ... That's the situation nowadays."
(Meron Benvenisti, 20 November 2003)



"We should say we accept a two-state solution, but that it means going back to the 1967 borders, and a fully independent and sovereign Palestinian state. We should give them six months. If there is no decision, we should say Israel, by its own choice, doesn't want a two-state solution. If Israel wants a one-state solution we accept; but 20 years from now, we're going to ask for one person, one vote."
(Ali Jirbawi, November 2003)



"If you look at the drive for a two-state solution in the past, it was always to prevent conflict. What is becoming more prevalent is that people are saying we have to do it because if we don't we're going to end up with a bi-national state. ... If you look at all the surveys of public opinion, the one issue that unites the Jewish population of Israel is that more than 90 per cent say they want to retain a Jewish majority. The problem of the right wing is that they want a Greater Israel including the occupied territories, without any withdrawal. The irony is by doing that they invite a bi-national state."
(David Newman, November 2003)



"In progress in the occupied territories is a war of repression entirely subservient to the ideology of the settlement drive. The Palestinian population is being subjected to starvation, denial of medical treatment, demolition of homes and economic strangulation. I will take no part in these war crimes, nor will I serve as a fig leaf for them."
(Idan Landau, July 2001)



"Benny Morris used to be a "Young Turk", but now he's become an old jerk with a vengenace."
(Avi Shlaim, 8 November 2003)



"The trees grow back and ultimately we hope to harvest them in the place of the unwanted inhabitants of the area."
(Yossi Peli, 14 November 2003)



"The life of the Palestinians has indeed become hell. Most of them live below the poverty line, many on the threshold of hunger, some in an actual state of hunger. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinian children suffer from malnutrition. Every village has become a prison camp, completely surrounded by roadblocks. Traffic is well-nigh impossible. Many Palestinians cannot reach their place of work, hospital, university or school or bring their produce to market. Israeli troops prowl in the towns and villages, demolishing homes, arresting or killing activists and, at the same time, women and children, too. The distant sound of an airplane engine is enough for the whole population to hold their breath."
(Uri Avnery, 14 November 2003)



"Palestine will be as Jewish as England is English."
(Chaim Weizmann, 1921)



"It was decided and carried out: they washed her, cut her hair, raped her and killed her."
(David Ben-Gurion, 1949)



"What answer do we have to the question: Why should Natasha from Kiev, whose ancestors had no connection to the Jewish people, be preferred to Ahmad, whose family tilled the land around Safed for centuries?"
(Jonathan (Jonathon) Rosenblum, 1999)



"The mass non-Jewish immigration undermines the very legitimacy of Israel. The spate of bills introduced by Arab Knesset members to amend the definition of Israel as a Jewish state and to recognize an Arab right of return derive their credibility from the non-Jewish immigration."
(Jonathan (Jonathon) Rosenblum, 1999)



"[M]ass immigration of non-Jews has the potential to trigger a social conflagration the likes of which we have never seen. Israelis of Middle Eastern descent, who had just begin to recover from the devastation of their own absorption in the country, feel they are being shunted aside in favor of those who are not even Jewish. The resentment aroused by this sense of being shoved back into the underclass has little to do with religion.
The pork shops and churches of the non-Jewish immigrants are merely the most potent symbols of the contempt in which the Middle Eastern population feels it is held. Even crucifix-wearing, pork-eating Russians are considered preferable to them."
(Jonathan (Jonathon) Rosenblum, 1999)




"The credibility issue is extremely important. On numerous occasions the IDF has put out lying accounts of incidents, and in the end the Palestinian version turned out to be true. This tradition of lying is very dangerous for the resilience of the society, especially if the lies are wrapped in a security cloak."
(Gideon Levy, 23 November 2003)



"Ben-Gurion gave the official version. He denied any IDF involvement [in the Qibya massacre] ... This was not Ben-Gurions first lie for what he saw as the good of his country, nor was it to be the last, but it was one of the most blatant."
(Avi Shlaim, 2000)



"it is permissible to lie for the sake of the Land of Israel"
(Yitzhak Yizernitzky, unknown date)



"Without lies, it would be impossible to talk about peace with the Palestinians for 36 years while at the same time seizing more and more Palestinian land. Without lies, it would be impossible to claim that there is no partner for the road map, while at the same time injecting more and more money into outposts that the road map calls for dismantling. Without lies, it would be impossible to promise "painful concessions" in exchange for peace, while at the same time terming people who concluded such an agreement "traitors.""
(Akiva Eldar, 24 November 2003)



"[I]n Israel, lying has become the norm among the working levels of the army, the legal establishment and the diplomatic corps. Lying has become a way of life for commanders and soldiers, lawyers and clerks, most of whom are far from having right-wing views and many of whom loathe the occupation."
(Akiva Eldar, 24 November 2003)



"While the politicians lie in order to perpetuate the occupation, the workers learn to lie in order to justify it. Israel Defense Forces soldiers have become used to seeing settlers prepare a road to yet another outpost in the morning, and then hearing on the radio in the evening that the defense minister and the prime minister "vehemently deny" the existence of any new outposts. So what do they do? They say (perhaps even to themselves) that this is a "security road.""
(Akiva Eldar, 24 November 2003)



"Members of the Shin Bet security service know that not every Palestinian who was executed without trial was truly a "ticking bomb." They have become used to "cutting corners" and to living with the lie. Analysts understand that it is impossible to defeat a people fighting for its land and that there is no basis for the claim that there is no Palestinian partner for a fair division of the land. But they have learned that it does not pay to tell the leaders the truth."
(Akiva Eldar, 24 November 2003)



"The soldiers who harden their hearts at roadblocks, the pilots who loose bombs in the middle of cities, the attorneys who whitewash and the spokesmen who lie are not people who lack moral values. Most are merely victims of the situation created by the occupation."
(Akiva Eldar, 24 November 2003)



"Today there is no separation [between an anti-Semitism that should be condemned and a legitimate criticism toward Israel's policies]. We are talking about collective anti-Semitism."
(Ariel (Arik) Sharon, 24 November 2003)



"Our sufferings have granted us immunity papers, as it were . . . After what all those dirty goyim have done to us, none of them is entitled to preach morality to us. We, on the other hand, have carte blanche, because we were victims and have suffered so much. Once a victim, always a victim, and victimhood entitles its owners to a moral exemption."
(Amos Oz (born Klausner), 1982)



"The failure to differentiate between civilians and terrorists turns all the Palestinians into potential suicide bombers."
(Yosef Paritzky, 2003)



"The world is rightly horrified at the cruel and bloody deaths of Israeli civilians, including babies and small children, inflicted by terrorist suicide bombers. Grievous though every one of these deaths most certainly is, it cannot be denied that during the three years of the Second Intifada the Israelis have killed three times as many Palestinians, some of them terrorists (in illegal targeted assassinations) but most of them innocent civilians, including babies and pregnant women."
(Gerald Kaufman, 22 November 2003)



"The prime minister has a plan. First he has to complete the eastern security fence. Then he will declare an enclave consisting of 52 percent of the West Bank "a temporary Palestinian state." The working premise of this plan is that 300,000 or more Palestinians will find themselves imprisoned between the fence and the Green Line, cut off from the mainstream of West Bank life, and will migrate slowly to the enclave."
(Akiva Eldar, 25 November 2003)

By way of deception thou shalt do war

Being so aloof, i hadnt noticed this happening -

Harvard Takes On the Israel Lobby

more examples


"Deir Yassin is as important a part of Jewish as it is of Palestinian history. Deir Yassin, coming in April 1948, just three years after the liberation of Auschwitz in January 1945, marks a Jewish transition from enslavement to empowerment and from abused to abuser. Can there ever have been such a remarkable shift, over such a short period, in the history of a people?
Deir Yassin also signalled the ethnic cleansing of 750,000 Palestinians leading to their eventual dispossession and exile and was just one example of a conscious and premeditated plan to destroy the Palestinians as a people in their own homeland. For the fifty-odd years since the establishment of the state of Israel, successive Israeli governments whether Labour or Likud, and whether by force as at Deir Yassin, or by chicanery as at Oslo and Camp David, have followed the same policy of oppressing and dispossessing Palestinians to make way for an exclusively Jewish state. Even now, when Israel could have peace and security for the asking, Israeli governments persist in their original intention of conquering the whole of Palestine for the use of the Jewish people alone. And all this was done, and is still being done, by Jews, for Jews and in the name of Jews."
(Paul Eisen, January 2003)



"My commitment to a safe and secure Jewish state is unwavering. For 19 years, this is a pledge I have kept in the United States Senate - whether through my votes on economic aid, military security or the location of the U.S. Embassy. And it is one I will continue to keep as I lead a bold new effort to enhance regional security throughout the Middle East."
(John Kerry, 27 August 2004)



"But as a result, there are those who delude themselves that, if there is correct education, it will be possible to make the checkpoints humane. This is the same type of illusion as that held by those who in the 1970s believed that the settlements in the territories were indeed set up for security purposes. Those who delude themselves today like to forget that the checkpoints are not located on the border of a sovereign state, but rather deep in the occupied territory of the West Bank. How much military manpower - which would be able to protect the civilian hinterland much better from the actual border - is required for these roadblocks? Those who prefer to delude themselves that a checkpoint can be humane ignore its role in maintaining the settlement enterprise."
(Amira Hass, 2 September 2004)



"The soldiers can study appropriate behavior at dozens of seminars, but their objective will not change: to ensure the regime of excessive rights for the Jews - basically the sole right of the Jews to move from Tel Aviv and to live in the West Bank while the Palestinians are not permitted to move and live in Tel Aviv. In order to challenge the immoral principles of this reality, the soldiers have to deal with the conventions, explanations and excuses of Israeli society. This is a difficult task for 50-year-olds, so why should it be possible for those who were born 17 years after the occupation of the territories? If the soldiers were to treat those passing through the roadblocks like equal human beings, they might be forced to ask questions about their own service."
(Amira Hass, 2 September 2004)



"The anti-Zionism equals anti-Semitism argument amounts to this: If you do not agree with the right of Jews to go to Palestine, settle there en masse against the wishes of the indigenous population, expel this population from 75% of their land and then, for the next fifty years and more, continue this assault on the remaining land and population, then you are an anti-Semite. Similarly, if you do not support the existence of an ethnically based state which defines itself as being for Jews only and discriminates officially both inside and outside its borders against non-Jews, then, again, you are an anti-Semite.
This would be laughable if it came from any other group of people, yet coming from Jews, even though not always agreed with, it is still seen as legitimate. So how do they get away with it? No-one else does, so what's special about Jews?"
(Paul Eisen, March 2004)




"Jewish suffering is held to be mysterious and beyond explanation. Context is rarely examined. The place and role of Jews in society - their historical relationships with Church and state, landlords and peasantry - is hardly ever subject to scrutiny, and, whilst non-Jewish attitudes to Jews are the subject of intense interest, Jewish attitudes to non-Jews are rarely mentioned. Attempts to confront these issues are met with suspicion, and sometimes hostility, because of a fear that explanation may lead to rationalization, which may lead to exculpation, and then even to justification."
(Paul Eisen, March 2004)



"[E]very complexity and ambiguity of Jewish identity and history, every example of Jewish suffering, every instance of anti-Jewish prejudice, however inconsequential, is used to justify the crimes of Israel and Zionism. Every possible interpretation or misinterpretation of language, and every kind of intellectual sophistry is used by Zionists to muddy the waters and label the critic of Israel and Zionism an anti-Semite. Words and phrases become loaded with hidden meanings, so that even the most honest critic of Israel has to twist and turn and jump through hoops to ensure that he or she is not perceived as anti-Semitic."
(Paul Eisen, March 2004)



"What need not be debated is this: that every complexity and ambiguity of Jewish identity and history, every example of Jewish suffering, every instance of anti-Jewish prejudice, however inconsequential, is used to justify the crimes of Israel and Zionism. Every possible interpretation or misinterpretation of language, and every kind of intellectual sophistry is used by Zionists to muddy the waters and label the critic of Israel and Zionism an anti-Semite. Words and phrases become loaded with hidden meanings, so that even the most honest critic of Israel has to twist and turn and jump through hoops to ensure that he or she is not perceived as anti-Semitic."
(Paul Eisen, March 2004)



"It's possible that Syria had a part in the Be'er Sheva attack, but, as the director of Military Intelligence, Major General Aharon Ze'evi-Farkash, said at week's end - contrary to Ya'alon's remarks - Israel has no proof of any such involvement. ... Colonial regimes have always accused external sources of intervening in the liberation struggles waged against them, in order to undermine the justice of the struggles. ... This is also Israel's aim in blaming Syria: to blur the justified aspect of the goals of the Palestinian struggle."
(Gideon Levy, 5 September 2004)



"Marc Ellis's 'ecumenical deal' which translates also into a political deal, says it all. It goes like this: To the Christian and to the entire non-Jewish world, Jews say this: 'You will apologise for Jewish suffering again and again and again. And, when you have finished apologising, you will then apologise some more. When you have apologised sufficiently we will forgive you, provided you let us do what we want in Palestine.'"
(Paul Eisen, March 2004)



"When I go into churches in the 4th District, there are only two countries I pray for: Israel and the United States."
(Robert Aderholt, 5 September 2004)



"in France today, as in the rest of the Muslim world, there is an anti-semitic discourse that seeks legitimacy from certain texts that are part of the Muslim tradition, and is confirmed in its beliefs by the situation in Palestine. This discourse is also peddled by intellectuals and imams who blame every setback or political defeat on the hidden hand of the Jewish lobby. The situation is too serious for conventional expressions of sympathy to be enough. In the name of conscience and their religion, Muslims must take a clear stand. Nothing in Islam can justify xenophobia . . . What needs to be said forcefully and resolutely is that anti-semitism is unacceptable and indefensible."
(Tariq Ramadan, 20 December 2001)



"Our lives come first."
(Rabbi Akiba (Akiva) ben Joseph, uttered around AD 132, but cited as justification for killing Palestinian civilians by Zionist rabbis in 2004)



"Possibly we are too sensitive about all forms of anti-Semitism."
(Reuven Rivlin, 7 September 2004)



"What good is freedom of speech if we don't use it?"
(Juan Cole, 9 September 2004)



"Sharon says terrorism is an epidemic that "has no borders, no fences", but this is not the case. Terrorism thrives within the illegitimate borders of occupation and dictatorship; it festers behind security walls put up by imperial powers; it crosses those borders and climbs those fences to explode inside the countries responsible for, or complicit in, occupation and domination.
.
If we want to see where the Likud doctrine leads, we need only follow the guru home, to Israel, a country paralysed by fear, embracing policies of extrajudicial assassination and illegal settlement, and in denial about the brutality it commits daily. It is a nation surrounded by enemies and desperate for friends - a category it narrowly defines as those who ask no questions, while offering the same moral amnesty in return. That glimpse of our collective future is the only lesson the world needs to learn from Sharon."
(Naomi Klein, 10 September 2004)



"Zionism is in essence the Zionism of transfer. The transfer of the Jewish nation from the diaspora to Zion and the transfer of the Arabs [out of all of Palestine]."
(Rehavam ('Gandhi') Ze'evi, before 2001)



"There are some who believe that the non-Jewish population, even in a high percentage, within our borders will be more effectively under our surveillance; and there are some who believe the contrary, i.e., that it is easier to carry out surveillance over the activities of a neighbor than over those of a tenant. I tend to support the latter view and have an additional argument:. the need to sustain the character of the state which will henceforth be Jewish... with a non-Jewish minority limited to 15 percent. I had already reached this fundamental position as early as 1940 [and] it is entered in my diary."
(Joseph Weitz, 1950)



"we are all obligated to carry out genocide"
(Israel Hess, 1980)



"When I discover that my freedom comes at the expense of the Palestinians in Jenin, I can't accept it. I don't want freedom at someone else's expense."
(Tali Fahima, 17 September 2004)



"I am sure that most Americans are not even aware that Palestinians live under Israeli military occupation and that every day Palestinian territory shrinks as it is stolen by fanatical Israeli colonists. These fanatics do not differ in any obvious way from the French colonists in Algeria, which the French also proclaimed "French soil." But colonialism is just another word for grand larceny."
(Juan Cole, 17 September 2004)



"Closure is not easy to explain: it is a terrible thing; it is illegal and it has been a fact of life for Palestinians for two generations. It has nothing to do with the pretext of 'security' and it is not an action in response to Resistance - it is a strategic instrument whose purpose is to fragment the Palestinian society. The intent is to dislocate people from their land, from their family, and from their jobs. It dislocates children and students from their education, doctors and patients from their hospitals, and the devout from their mosques. Thus its purpose is to destroy all coherence - social coherence, health coherence, political coherence, economic coherence."
(Anne Gwynne, 13 September 2004)



"Whenever there is sealing off of Palestine, the sadistic violence from the soldiers increases exponentially. More doctors and medical staff will be beaten and humiliated by being stripped of every stitch of clothing and then forced either to unload the ambulance before dozens of people, bark like dogs, insult Islam, sing songs glorifying Israel or crawl through the checkpoint while the Israeli thugs laugh uproariously and dance around waving their guns above their heads.
This is a professional army? This is security? No, all this is just to cruelly cause death and compromised health as part of the long-term plan of genocide."
(Anne Gwynne, 13 September 2004)



"Under the horrific lockdown which is now announced, many more mothers with a new-born baby on one arm and a bag on the other, will have to walk home from hospital only to be told at Beit Fouriq to 'go back to Nablus' which is not home. Farmers with panniers of Palestinian Olive Oil on their little donkey, will have to stand by helplessly and watch the precious, life-giving oil cascade down into the soil after an IOF soldier shoots holes in the panniers, and grandparents with small children and animals will be refused entry to their villages and have nowhere else to go at nightfall with marauding, trigger-happy soldiers everywhere."
(Anne Gwynne, 13 September 2004)



"In Palestine, curfew is a matter of life and death, especially for children, who don't carry a radio or a mobile phone to receive news of the curfew. This is the penalty here: anyone seen by soldiers on the street during curfew will be shot. This has happened to dozens of children and it was particularly poignant in Beit Lahim (Bethlehem) at Christmas when several children were murdered this way. You can be watching children running to safety, and in a moment they are bleeding on the road. What is extraordinary is that the military can justify this murder on the grounds that there is curfew. A child is killed because he is on the street at a forbidden moment. Can anyone feel that this penalty is proportionate?
The response to any protest at their actions is rote-learned - a shrug, a sneer and a snarled - 'Not my problem'."
(Anne Gwynne, 13 September 2004)



"If you are looking for what I believe you are looking for [material in the IDF archives about Israeli massacres of Palestinians in the 1948 War], then you can forget it. In any case, just keep in mind that we are reading over any documents before you are allowed to see them and we cull out material that you should not see"
(Miki Kaufman, 6 May 1992)



"For many Israelis it was easier to find consolation in the lie, that the Arabs left the country under orders from their leaders. This is an absolute fabrication. The fundamental cause of their flight was their fear from Israeli retribution and this fear was not at all imaginary. From almost each report in the IDF archives concerning the conquest of Arab villages between May and July 1948 - when clashes with Arab villagers were the fiercest - a smell of massacre emanates. Sometimes the report tells about blatant massacres which were committed after the battle, sometimes the massacres are committed in the heat of battle and while the villages are "cleansed". Some of my colleagues, such as Me'ir Pa'il, don't consider such acts as massacres. In my opinion there is no other term for such acts than massacres. This was at the time the rule of the game. It was a dirty war on both sides. This phenomenon spread out in the field; there were no explicit orders to exterminate. In the first phase a village was usually subjected to heavy artillery from distance. Then soldiers would assault the village. After giving up resistance, the Arab fighters would withdraw while attempting to snipe at the advancing forces. Some would not flee and would remain in the village, mainly women and old people. In the course of cleansing we used to hit them. One was 'tailing the fugitives', as it used to be called ('mezanvim baborchim'). There was no established battle procedure as today, namely that when blowing up a house, one has first to check whether civilians are still inside. In a typical battle report about the conquest of a village we find: 'We cleansed a village, shot in any direction where resistance was noticed. After the resistance ended, we also had to shoot people so that they would leave or who looked dangerous."
(Aryeh Yitzhaki, 6 May 1992)



"I maintain that even before the establishment of the State, each battle ended with a massacre. In all Israel's wars massacres were committed but I have no doubt that the War of Independence was the dirtiest of them all. ... In the War of Independence everybody massacred everybody, but most of the action happened between Jews and Palestinians. ... 'In my opinion, the regular armies of Arab states were less barbaric than the Jews and the Palestinians. Until the entry into the battle of the Arab armies, the concept of taking prisoners was unknown. The regular armies, especially that of Jordan and Egypt, were the first in the region who did not kill prisoners, as a matter of principle. Not that they were exceptional, but they killed the least of all, relatively speaking. The Jordanian Legion even succeeded to stop Palestinians of massacring Jews in Gush Etzion, at least in a part of this area. The education in the Yishuv at that time had it that the Arabs would do anything to kill us and therefore we had to massacre them. A substantial part of the Jewish public was convinced that the most cherished wish of say, a nine-year old Arab child, was to exterminate us. This belief bordered on paranoia."
(Aryeh Yitzhaki, 6 May 1992)



"'The Archivist refused to let me see the report and I went then to the Supreme Court. According to the [State] Archives Law (1953), access is open to documents concerning [government] policies and political matters after 30 years and documents related to security matters after 50 years. As the report by the Shapira committee [on killings in the 1948 War] is a political document issued by the Ministry of Justice, it was to be accessible by the public. But after I entered my request to the State Archivist and to the courts, the State Prosecutor and the Archivist made me a trick. It appeared that by convening a special meeting of at least two Cabinet members - in this case Arens and Sharir - it was possible to extend indefinitely the classified status of any archived document by arguing that disclosure might endanger state security. The meeting was duly convened and the document was reclassified"
(Benny Morris, 6 May 1992)



"He [an Israeli intelligence officer whom Ben Yehuda saw torturing Arab prisoners with a hoe until they bled to death] beat these wounded men, burnt men who had not slept for days with their lips swollen from lack of water. ... [He complained about me and my fellow Palmachniks who were also disgusted by the sight of blood and splattered brains, saying, as he murdered the helpless prisoners] 'These Palmachniks! Weaklings, what do they think? They escaped! Did they think we can maintain a state without such things? And is this the first time? So where are we to get men with guts to do things for us? Maybe we should hire people? Or hire some British? Free some Nazis!'"
(Netiva Ben Yehuda, 27 February 1985)



"There is ... a difficulty from which the Zionist dares not avert his eyes, though he rarely likes to face it. Palestine proper has already its inhabitants. The pashalik of Jerusalem is already twice as thickly populated as the United States, having 52 souls to every square mile, and not 25 percent of them Jews; so we must be prepared either to drive out by the sword the tribes in possession as our forefathers did, or to grapple with the problem of a large alien population, mostly Mohammedan. ... This is an infinitely graver difficulty than the stock anti-Zionist taunt that nobody would go to Palestine if we got it."
(Israel Zangwill, 1904)



"If the Intifada doesn't end soon, Israel is liable to lose its preferential standing in American public opinion. At this point, America is pro-Israel. But other currents are bubbling below the surface and telling Americans that Israel is an occupier and an oppressor. This idea isn't fully rooted yet, but another five years of graphic images from the territories, and we'll start feeling it. as American Jews."
(Brian Lurie, November 2003)



"The question of terrorism and the casualties inflicted by terrorism on an innocent civilian population is a very serious question, but the wall is not there to alleviate this crisis of terrorism - the wall is there in the first instance as an attempt to Bantustanize Palestine and to isolate the indigenous population in what are effectively huge concentration camps. Terrorism and targeting civilian population is a serious crisis, but anyone approaching the crisis in decent terms ought to recognize that the first terrorist actor in this awful equation is not the Palestinian suicide bomber, but the Israeli army and the government of the State of Israel."
(Uri Davis, 19 September 2004)



"We executed Bernadotte because he ...endangered the status of Jerusalem by his declared intention of turning her into an international city."
(Yehoshua Zeitler, some date after 1948)



"[The Deir Yassin massacre was a deliberate and unprovoked attack."
(Dov Joseph, 1962)



"Through the High Court of Justice, the Supreme Court has determined that 'Judea and Samaria are being held by Israel in a military occupation or belligerent occupation. A military government - headed by a military commander - has been established in the region. The powers and authorities of the military commander derive from the principles of public international law as they relate to military occupation.'"
(Naama Carmi, 30 June 2003)



"Were the Soviet Union to sink tomorrow under the waters of the ocean, the American military-industrial establishment would have to go on, substantially unchanged, until some other adversary could be invented. Anything else would be an unacceptable shock to the American economy."
(George F. Kennan, 1987)



"I'd say give Falluja 48 hours notice. Every civilian must leave because we are turning Falluja into a free-fire zone to eliminate the people that are engaged in terror. After that I would use the 500-pound bombs."
(Ed Koch, 28 September 2004)



"In my childhood I have suffered fear, hunger and humiliation when I passed from the Warsaw Ghetto, through labour camps, to Buchenwald. Today, as a citizen of Israel, I cannot accept the systematic destruction of cities, towns and refugee camps. I cannot accept the technocratic cruelty of the bombing, destroying and killing of human beings.

I hear too many familiar sounds today, sounds which are being amplified by the war. I hear "dirty Arabs" and I remember "dirty Jews". I hear about "closed areas" and I remember ghettos and camps. I hear "two-legged beasts" and I remember "Untermenschen" (subhumans). I hear about tightening the siege, clearing the area, pounding the city into submission and I remember suffering, destruction, death, blood and murder. Too many things in Israel remind me of too many things from my childhood."
(Shlomo Shmelzman, August 1982)



"In our country there is room only for the Jews. We shall say to the Arabs: Get out! If they don't agree, if they resist, we shall drive them out by force."
(Ben-Zion Dinur, 1972)



"[The court decision to free Yehoshua Elitzur after killing Sael Jabara means that] it is possible to kill a Palestinian and then go home to rest."
(Ahmed Tibi, 30 September 2004)



"Are we terrorists for resisting when they come and destroy our homes and kill us? They say it is to stop the Qassams. How many rockets have they fired at our homes?"
(Palestinian resistance, 1 October 2004)



"When the army is instructed by Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz 'to collect a price' from the Palestinians, it means hitting armed units, but also, incidentally, killing civilians and widespread demolition of buildings and cultivated lands. By last night the Palestinian fatalities exceeded 30 in 48 hours."
(Amos Harel, 1 October 2004)



"At the time of the issue of this (Palestine) mandate, His Majesty's Government were too busy setting up a civil administration in Palestine proper, west of the river Jordan, to be bothered about the remote and undeveloped areas which lay to the east of the river and which were intended to serve as a reserve of land for use in the resettlement of Arabs once the National Home for the Jews in Palestine, which they were pledged to support, became an accomplished fact."
(Alec Kirkbride, 1956)



"Only an internal revolution can have the power to heal our people of their murderous sickness of causeless hatred. It is bound to bring complete ruin upon us. Only then will the old and young in our land realize how great was our responsibility to those miserable Arab refugees in whose towns we have settled Jews who were brought from afar; whose homes we have inherited, whose fields we now sow and harvest; the fruit of whose gardens, orchards and vineyards we gather; and in whose cities that we robbed, we put up houses of education, charity, and prayer while we babble and rave about being the 'people of the book' and the 'light of the nations.'"
(Martin Buber, January 1961)



"The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process. And when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with authority and permission. All with a presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress."
(Dov Weisglass, 6 October 2004)



"God says, 'I'm going to judge those who carve up the West Bank and Gaza Strip; It's my land and keep your hands off it.'"
(Pat Robertson, 5 October 2004)



"The significance of our disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process. It supplies the formaldehyde necessary so there is no political process with the Palestinians."
(Dov Weisglass, 6 October 2004)



"What I effectively agreed to with the Americans [in talks leading to Bush's endorsement of Sharon's disengagement plan] was that part of the settlements would not be dealt with at all, and the rest will not be dealt with until the Palestinians turn into Finns."
(Dov Weisglass, 6 October 2004)



"This just creates death, destruction and rage. When the army went into Beit Hanoun, it created many more suicide bombers."
(Raji Sourani, 8 October 2004)



"Yet some people still think of taking part in the future management of Gaza, of acting as policemen in this big Israeli prison. What is taking place in Gaza is not withdrawal, or the preparation for a withdrawal. It is not even redeployment. What is happening in Gaza is the reinstatement of full occupation, of apartheid and racial discrimination. It is an attempt to reconfigure occupation and make it less costly to Israel. This is why Sharon wants to get the settlers out, all of 6,000 of them. That gives him the freehand he needs to act with utmost brutality in Gaza."
(Mustafa (Mustapha) Barghouti, 8 October 2004)



"Sharon wants to destroy UNRWA, the special United Nations Relief and Works Agency that moderates the misery of the four millions of Palestinian refugees. It is a big organization with some 25 thousand employees, including teachers, social workers and physicians, almost all of them, of course, Palestinians. It provides the refugees with food, education, health services and, in case of need, a roof over their head. Without it, the refugees would long ago have descended into an abyss of hunger and despair. At present, while our army is destroying whole Gaza neighborhoods and their infrastructure, UNRWA is providing food, tents and medical care to needy Palestinians who are not refugees. The very existence of this organization disturbs Sharon and his generals, who want to break the resistance of the Palestinians by turning their life into hell. After working systematically to smash the Palestinian National Authority, they are now trying to crush UNRWA. As reported in the media, Sharon ordered his generals to supply the Foreign Office's propaganda department with secret army photos, in order to prove that UNRWA cooperates with the "terror organizations"."
(Uri Avnery, 9 October 2004)



"No Palestinian organization would have thought of provoking the Egyptian government. Therefore, it appears that something new has happened. We have warned many times that the young Arab and Muslim generation in the world will not stand aside forever while the TV brings reports every day that show how the Arab nation is humiliated. The apathy of the Arab and Muslim governments towards the events in the occupied Palestinian territories looks to them like humiliating cowardice or rank treason. The mistreatment of the Palestinian people by Sharon and his predecessors has created an explosive situation. The invasion of Iraq by Bush has provided the spark. An Arab-Muslim resistance movement is coming into being, a resistance that sees no difference between Iraq and Palestine, between Israel, the US and the Arab governments. That, it seems, is the message of Taba [bombings]."
(Uri Avnery, 9 October 2004)



"One case of killing caused by "certain identification" this week should have shocked the world. Iman Alhamas, a 13-year old girl from Rafah, was on her way to school, following the same route she took every day. Suddenly deadly fire enveloped her. The doctors extracted 20 bullets from her body. Since not every bullet hits its target and some pass right through, it may be assumed that at least 100 bullets were fired at her from several army positions - one hundred bullets for one little girl. In her bag, only schoolbooks were found.
The army spokesmen issued the standard mendacious statement: the girl had entered a "forbidden zone", the soldiers took her for a "terrorist", the bag looked as if it contained explosives, etc. etc."
(Uri Avnery, 9 October 2004)



"After decades of ever-solidifying ties, Israel is now so closely linked to the United States in concrete ways that it is actually a part of the U.S. military-industrial complex. Israel sells military equipment, with our knowledge, to countries to which the U.S. is restricted by law from selling - for instance, to China. So many arms and types of arms are produced in the U.S. for Israel that it has become quite easy for Israel's lobbyists in Washington to go to individual congressmen and point out to them how many jobs in a given district depend on this arms industry and on not withholding arms from Israel. In this way, Israel becomes a direct factor in sustaining the U.S. military-industrial complex, in maintaining jobs in the U.S., and in keeping congressmen and other politicians in office."
(Bill Christison, 12 October 2004)



"In fact, the U.S.-Israeli relationship has grown so very close over the years that it is almost impossible to distinguish whose policy, Israel's or ours, is being pursued in the Middle East, and this is a reality that puts the United States in grave danger."
(Bill Christison, 12 October 2004)



"With the kind of pro-Israeli activists who people the policymaking ranks of the Bush administration, it has come to the point that the U.S. gears much of its foreign policy to furthering Israel's interests as much or more than to furthering our own interests. Bush policymakers have as little interest in actually resolving the Palestinian-Israeli conflict as the voters in the Council on Foreign Relations poll whom they are supposed to be leading; their interest is in dealing with the conflict in whatever way Israeli sees fit. One of the primary reasons we went to war in Iraq was to benefit Israel. This reality is so frightening that it needs to be trumpeted whenever motivations for the war are discussed. The United States' own pursuit of global hegemony was obviously another major motivation, as was oil, but U.S. and Israeli goals in the Middle East are so intertwined that it is impossible to determine where a policymaker like Paul Wolfowitz, for instance, or Donald Rumsfeld or the many neo-conservatives in the Defense Department stop thinking of Israeli interests and begin to think exclusively of U.S. interests. Policy and policymakers are so closely interlinked that there probably is no such point. This needs to be discussed loudly and often."
(Bill Christison, 12 October 2004)



"One problem with treating Israel and its conflict with the Palestinians as a sideshow, with no direct impact on U.S. interests, is that the more Israel is ignored as a factor, as an ingredient in U.S. empire-building, the stronger Israel becomes, the stronger its ties to the military-industrial complex, the more it is able to stand up to the United States and resist any U.S. demands - in the peace process for instance - the more it is able to kill Palestinians, pursue its territorial aggrandizement, and ultimately endanger the United States. Everything Israel does in the Middle East is perceived throughout the world, and accurately so, as having been condoned, encouraged, and enabled by the United States, with the result that any terrorists able to concoct an attack like September 11 will target us before they will target Israel."
(Bill Christison, 12 October 2004)



"How could eight or nine neoconservatives come and take charge of this government? They overran the bureaucracy, they overran the Congress, they overran the press, and they overran the military! So you say to yourself, How fragile is this democracy?"
(Seymour M. Hersh, 11 October 2004)



"It is an obscene comparison - you know I am not sure I like it - but you know there was a time in South Africa that people would put flaming tyres around people's necks if they dissented. And in some ways the fear is that you will be necklaced here, you will have a flaming tyre of lack of patriotism put around your neck. Now it is that fear that keeps journalists from asking the toughest of the tough questions. ... It starts with a feeling of patriotism within oneself. It carries through with a certain knowledge that the country as a whole - and for all the right reasons - felt and continues to feel this surge of patriotism within themselves. And one finds oneself saying: 'I know the right question, but you know what? This is not exactly the right time to ask it.'"
(Dan Rather, 16 May 2002)



"Israelis are deluding themselves if they believe that a "one state, one reservation" solution can be repackaged and sold to the Palestinians as a "two state solution"."
(Michael Tarazi, 20 October 2004)



"It is Israeli military tactics that the US now apes in places like Falluja and Najaf."
(Simon Tisdall, 20 October 2004)



"Whether at the checkpoints, in their classrooms, in their living rooms or in the streets, Palestinian children have long lost any immunity they might have enjoyed under an occupation that used to be particularly sensitive to its image in the western public opinion. Alas, that was before 9/11. Since then, however, with the effective Israelization of US foreign policy, especially in the Middle East, Israelis felt they had a "windfall", as Netanyahu called the 9/11 crimes in his first public reaction. Indeed, Israel has steadily moved close to a combination of the French colonial model in Algeria and the apartheid model in South Africa, while enjoying unwavering protection from the new empire and a hypocritical, subservient attitude from most European governments which continue to treat Israel as a preferred partner and as a western outpost in the near east. Thanks to this shameful collusion, Palestinian children are no longer spared Israel's worst crimes, committed with revolting impunity."
(Omar Barghouti, 25 October 2004)



"I know the majority of readers of these lines will raise an enormous outcry regarding the extent of racism dripping from my statements about the danger to democracy inherent in the slaughter of the holiest cow. I would answer them, `The survival of the people of Israel in the entire world depends on the continued strength, security and perpetuity of the Jewish State of Israel.' ... National insurance benefits will be given only to citizens who respect government and municipal tax laws ... Every citizen who does not appear for mandatory service in the IDF will be eligible to vote only in municipal elections ... Every Arab citizen or non-Jewish immigrant who was convicted in a court of law of engaging in activity against the state or inciting others to do so will be deported following the completion of his sentence. In less severe cases, their status will be changed from that of full citizenship to foreign residence without the right to vote in Knesset elections. If these recommendations are adopted, it will be possible to improve civic rights with the purpose of achieving full and real equality in all aspects related to living conditions and quality of life, in regard to the minorities that present a demographic danger."
(Yitzhak Caspit, Spring 2003)



"[In Gaza] there used to be 600,000 Arabs. Now there are 1.4 million people there . in a few more years what happened to South Africa will happen to us. The UN will decide that either we give the right to vote to everyone or we will be outcasts from the family of nations. Absurdly, the greatest danger that could befall us . is that the intifada would end - because then we would fall asleep and wake up to a binational state."
(Yonatan Bassi, 29 July 2004)



"What do the young soldiers and the petty officers internalize today? They leave the army with the knowledge that human life, when the life is not a Jewish one, is extremely cheap. The death of a Jew by the hands of a Palestinian is a tragedy, the death of a Palestinian by the hands of a Jew is no big deal. They learn that the killing of Palestinian children, women and old people, the destruction of their homes and their property, is permitted not only in cases of self-defense, but even for the sake of operational convenience. They learn that the Palestinian population is of no interest to anyone and force can be used against it unrestrainedly, even when the only real purpose is revenge and scare tactics. From the affair of the commander of the Gaza Division and the company commander from the Girit outpost, they have learned the lesson that might makes right. Because the only sin lies not in committing crimes but in failing to conceal them."
(Ze'ev (Zeev) Sternhell, 12 November 2004)



"There can be no lasting settlement of the conflict without the consent of the Palestinian majority in the diaspora and no leader likely to emerge from the current power struggle in the occupied territories can speak for that constituency. In that case, some argue, it may be better to concentrate on maintaining Palestinian unity, postpone serious negotiations, continue legitimate resistance and rebuild political organisation in the Palestinian diaspora for the longer term."
(Seumas Milne, 18 November 2004)



"it is simply an affront to common sense to claim that the Palestinians' plight - or, for that matter, Israel's problems with the Palestinians - stems from a lack of democracy. The Palestinians have a tradition of political pluralism stretching back decades, while the Palestinian authority in the occupied territories barely has the powers of a proper local authority, let alone those of a state - and the scope for meaningful democracy under military occupation is severely limited. The authority's failures arose largely from the weaknesses of the Oslo peace process, which gave it the role of middleman and security contractor for Israel, while closures and settlement expansion made Palestinians' lives ever more grim. The Palestinian problem is instead primarily one of colonisation and occupation - and the denial of self-determination and refugee rights."
(Seumas Milne, 18 November 2004)



"the crimes [against the Palestinians] stretch back more than half a century - and the US and Britain have been complicit at every stage, from their original dispossession and ethnic cleansing in 1948 to the acquiescence in Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza in 1967, from the blind eye turned to 37 years of illegal Israeli settlements to the pressure to replace the elected Palestinian leader with somebody more pliant."
(Seumas Milne, 18 November 2004)



"When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle."
(Rafael ('Raful') Eitan, 14 April 1983)



"We have to do everything to make [Palestinians] so miserable they will leave."
(Rafael ('Raful') Eitan, 1980)



"the Phalange [Israel's Christian allies in Lebanon] will organize tiny little houses for the Palestinians"
(Rafael ('Raful') Eitan, September 1982)



"It's a pleasure to see how the Arabs are killing one another."
(Rafael ('Raful') Eitan, some date before the mid 1980s)



"To punish parents for their sons' deeds works well with Arabs."
(Rafael ('Raful') Eitan, some date before the mid 1980s)



"What is necessary is cruel and strong reactions. We need precision in time, place, and casualties. If we know the family, we must strike mercilessly, women and children included. Otherwise, the reaction is inefficient. At the place of action, there is no need to distinguish between guilty and innocent."
(David Ben-Gurion, 1 January 1948)



"Under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them. Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement, should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price."
(David Ben-Gurion, 1920)



"The assets of the Jewish National Home must be created exclusively through our own work, for only the product of the Hebrew labor can serve as the national estate."
(David Ben-Gurion, some date before 1948)



"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
(David Ben-Gurion, May 1948)



"We accepted the UN resolution, but the Arabs did not. They are preparing to make war on us. If we defeat them and capture western Galilee or territory on both sides of the road to Jerusalem, these areas will become part of the state. Why should we obligate ourselves to accept boundaries that in any case the Arabs don't accept?"
(David Ben-Gurion, May 1948)



"Well done, now give it back to them."
(David Ben-Gurion, June 1967)



"First of all, the fence is not built like the Berlin Wall. It's a fence that we will be guarding on either side. Instead of entering Gaza, the way we did last week, we will tell the Palestinians that if a single missile is fired over the fence, we will fire 10 in response. And women and children will be killed, and houses will be destroyed. After the fifth such incident, Palestinian mothers won't allow their husbands to shoot Kassams, because they will know what's waiting for them. Second of all, when 2.5 million people live in a closed-off Gaza, it's going to be a human catastrophe. Those people will become even bigger animals than they are today, with the aid of an insane fundamentalist Islam. The pressure at the border will be awful. It's going to be a terrible war. So, if we want to remain alive, we will have to kill and kill and kill. All day, every day. ... If we don't kill, we will cease to exist. The only thing that concerns me is how to ensure that the boys and men who are going to have to do the killing will be able to return home to their families and be normal human beings. ... The Palestinians will be forced to realize that demography is no longer significant, because we're here and they're there. And then they will begin to ask for "conflict management" talks - not that dirty word "peace." Peace is a word for believers, and I have no tolerance for believers - neither those who wear yarmulkes nor those who pray to the God of peace. ... Both are dangerous. Unilateral separation doesn't guarantee "peace" - it guarantees a Zionist-Jewish state with an overwhelming majority of Jews; it guarantees the kind of safety that will return tourists to the country; and it guarantees one other important thing. Between 1948 and 1967, the fence was a fence, and 400,000 people left the West Bank voluntarily. This is what will happen after separation. If a Palestinian cannot come into Tel Aviv for work, he will look in Iraq, or Kuwait, or London. I believe that there will be movement out of the area."
(Arnon Soffer, 10 May 2004)



"I and another soldier ... are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill ... Receive a situation report. We fired and killed her ... I also confirmed the kill. Over. ... This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed. Over."
(Captain R, 5 October 2004)



"In the West Bank, there is a clear separation between Jews and Palestinians regarding traffic laws. Jewish settlers receive a purple-colored report and are tried in traffic courts within the Green Line, by civilian judges."
(David Ratner, 5 December 2004)



"The peace that began with the Oslo Accords promised [the average] Palestinian woman that a day after the signing, the Israeli Border Police would disappear from the view out her kitchen window, that her son would come home from prison and that her husband would no longer have to make his way at three in the morning through humiliating checkpoints to make a living. None of that happened. ... It must be admitted that over the last 10 years there was not a single stage where the Palestinian society had something to lose."
(Moshe Elad, 8 December 2004)



"If it could happen in the country of Kant and Beethoven, it can happen everywhere. If we don't defend democracy, democracy will not defend us!"
(Aharon Barak, some date before 2004)



"the Arabs are worms, everywhere they are worms. Under the ground, above the ground, and everywhere else."
(Yehiel Hazan, 13 December 2004)



"You would like me to look at it objectively. Objectively, I agree: we are only breeding more hatred and violence. You want me to imagine how I would feel if I were a Palestinian. I suppose that if I were, I might want to kill Israelis myself. But I am not objective and I am not a Palestinian. It's not that the lives of Palestinians don't matter to me. But Israeli lives matter more."
(Hillel Halkin, 15 November 2002)



"Israel is a close ally and friend of the United States, and we should defend it from its enemies. But when Ariel Sharon sends American-made helicopter gunships and F-16s to fire missiles into civilian residences or crowds in streets, as he has done more than once, then he makes the United States complicit in his war crimes and makes the United States hated among friends of the Palestinians. And this aggression and disregard of Arab life on the part of the proto-fascist Israeli Right has gotten more than one American killed, including American soldiers."
(Juan Cole, 14 December 2004)



"For him [Moshe Ya'alon], in fact, it [the Al-Aqsa Intifada] is the second half of 1948."
(Amir Oren, 17 November 2000)



"'You are actually, by the language you are using, encouraging people to oppose you and to find Israel more militant. I don't understand why the army spokespeople in this country appear in uniform, when it only emphasizes the fact that Israel is a military power,' he said. 'Language is everything,' according to Luntz, who called on the government to strike the word 'incitement' from its vocabulary. 'What the heck is the problem with Israel, with Israelis and spokespeople who use words that Americans do not understand, do not comprehend, and they don't internalize?' He suggested using the term 'culture of hatred' instead, and that the disengagement plan be referred to as 'voluntary' or a 'first step' instead of unilateral."
(Frank Luntz, 16 December 2004)



"The Israelis argue that the Arabs will never receive all the rights they deserve as long as they do not serve in the IDF. The Druze in Isfiya and in Daliat al-Carmel serve in the IDF and they don't get their rights."
(Nimr Nimr, Spring 2004)



"I am not willing to be part of the military terrorism practiced by the army against the Palestinians. I also have relatives in Syria and Lebanon ... I am part of them ... I never thought twice, I handed myself to the nearest Police Station, and was imprisoned five times for a total of 84 days in six months. ... Israel

quote:

Originally posted by Gnarlodious:

As usual, Sunrise, you sound like you are trying to make a point but fall flat on your face. Either I am too dense to make the connection or you are psychotic. In the future, you should spell out your allegories so I can at least attempt to understand your point.

She says without spelling it out. What "connection", what "allegories" etc?

The point, depending on which one you were refering to, was to point out to Sawdust (and others) that the argument that so inspired this thread, is false, based on a false premise, perhaps several.


***

As for whats been highlighted in bold -

'you are either with us, or with the terrorist', comes to mind.

Maybe you'll manage to make the connection and see the point.

quote:

Originally posted by Camp:
For SRP2

You continue to manage to type nothing of substance.

Walter Lippman was the genious behind many treatises on critcal discourse and he also had to put the "meaningful" qualifier to all opposing views so that the nihilists would not simply play rubber and glue and would be forced to add some substance to the dialogue.

You offer no step forward, ever.

Nothing!

quote:

Originally posted by Camp:

quote:

It's hard to throw stones while you're holding hands, but, Camp and Gnarly, you've managed.

It's good to have human connections, for sure.

Still, I'm not sure what your ultimate goal is, other than to hold hands, as Sunrise has well articulated when he said:

So if I ask "Where's the beef?" it is groupthink and labelling?

I am just in search of substance.

I asked Miles what he would do in a constructive sense recently and he was unable to answer.

Alternatives require substance or we are all really sheeple to the NWO oligarchy.

Camp, have you posted on the wrong thread, have you another conversation going? If you are so interested in my opinion, substance, alternatives etc, then simply ask away. Start a new thread, ask questions. Interestingly enough, i think Ronald talked about me not expressing an opinion shortly after he stopped talking to me.

I posted here (after friendly greatings to sawdust) to offer an alternative view to the argument that inspired this thread. its one that is not prejudice to one group or other, but suggests that we all human after all, which we are, and that no race or group is superior (amongst other things). That kind of thing may not sit comfortably with you, but if you want to know more about what ive had to say in this thread (or any other) ask away. Not to mention that the argument being put forward was false, and as yet the comment of "I respect your [Gnarlies] defense of Israel." is unsubstantiated, lacks substance.

Your response so far, and it seems your contribution in general, has been lacking substance and alternatives. May be i ought to take your appeal towards me to provide substance and alternatives for you, as a compliment, but i dont. Not least because it was preceeded by an unsubstantiated claim about what sums me up.

***

To sum up this threads begining. Sawdust respects Gnarlies defence on israel because of a false argument. He didnt know the argument was false, but then he didnt check, his view is whats commonly refered to as prejudice.

Ive offered an alternative view, a view that looks at the bigger picture, attempts to compare like with like, etc. And provided ample substance too, imo.

What in your opinion, have you contributed? What does the following comment from Gnarly contribute -

quote:

Originally posted by Gnarlodious:
Sawdust:
Thanks for the vote of confidence. It is not so much that I am a defender of Israel, but hopefully can stimulate some reasonableness in the debate. Since there is no end of people who will post extended anti-Israel diatribes, it falls to me to be the opposition. In a rabidly anti-Arab discussion I would no doubt come to the defense of the Arabs.

The brave woman the NYT article refers to, she takes her life in her hands by saying those things. We hope that at some time in the future the Arabs graduate from the medieval mentality of theirs and stop warring with the civilized world.

?

And so on. These sorts of questions you can learn to ask, yourself.

There was one other thing, but i forget. Maybe i'll remember and post it later, maybe not, eh.

Oh yeah, reaper agrees ... (i dont think that was the other thing though)

***

(Hello Ren , Kate )

Good to see you out and about, all.

reaper, that's a boat load of statements. A boat load. They seem to make a clear point about what's being said and thought about the Middle East "Peace" Process ...

Sawdust, you've said in several contexts that you come to these boards for their entertainment value. Well, I was not entertained by your gladiator approach to entertainment, in starting this thread. Unfortunately for your giggles meter, it backfired a bit, because some human beings actually work to understand each other, make a connection with each other, and make a connection with the ideas and news bits that are being put out there. I put Gnarly in that group of real people seeking out real connections, especially with regard to her last post in this thread.

It appears by your posting behavior, Sawdust, that you lost your soul somewhere on your way to the bank.

***

Sunrise. Carry on. And cheers to you.

Thanks Kate, I only try to enlighten the people for the people. And yes I agree with just about everyone on this subject except for the disinformation agents.

And here's me thinking that Camp would have left some comments about how i have not given answers to questions i havnt been asked yet.

All the comments and outakes piled high and deep still do not offer a constructive solution.

Some wish to "connect." I look for answers.

I see no offerings for alternatives. It would appear to me that by deconstructing Israel a way of life is given away without objection, let alone a fight.

It is easy to call the premise of the thread false, but the truth remains lost.

I am not surprised that all the politicians are wore to pebbles at this time. The ideas and means to maintain freedom are being cannabalized as this thread so clearly illustrates.

A perfect example are the Mexican protestors who cannot protest Mexican conditions in Mexico so they flee illegally to the USA to protest not being able to make the US another Mexico. The focus sticks to the US when it should be Mexico. The same has happened in Israel.

Geopolitical ADD? Why not? It makes as much sense as anything else.

The only way we can continue this fun is if we relearn how to say NO to the forces of anarchy. Freedoms and rights are being lost at a faster rate than I ever thought possible. How progressive is it to be forced to consider all people or cultures as equal? I have found some to be most unworthy of such assuptions.

quote:

It appears by your posting behavior, Sawdust, that you lost your soul somewhere on your way to the bank.

Well Kate, not that you are the arbiter of where my soul is, there are a couple of folks on the board who have indicated in the past they don't wish to communicate with me. So I don't. Make the same request of me and I will honor it as well for you.

Truth is, I've said everything about this I wanted to say and haven't paid much attention to it sinse. I've thought about deleting the whole thing sinse, because I started it, I think I have that ability. I read the article from Ms. Sultan and agreed with it but made a mistake when I addressed it to Rachael. I did that because she has steadfastly stood by her beliefs, often with no support. I know how it feels to disagree with everyone on a message board. It's amusing but every once in a while it's good to catch a little back up.

.


Excellent posts Sunrise.


I find it very predictable that those here who clearly paint themselves as Muslim haters and Israeli terrorism / aggression apologists NEVER seem to want to look at this issue objectively.

They seem to believe that the Israeli terrorists and terrorist organizations which you described in brief (and which Time magazine briefly denoted in an issue last year) somehow either never existed or that they were just 'poor victims' of Palestinian people who just want their dignity and to not be brutally subjugated with no other measure of recourse but to committ egregious, random, violence upon innocent Palestinian populations.

Oh, poor Israeli terrorists! Poor babies.


.

quote:

Originally posted by mmissinglink:
~ those here who clearly paint themselves as Muslim haters and Israeli terrorism / aggression apologists NEVER seem to want to look at this issue objectively.

That statement alone sums up the one-sided thinking that seems to motivate most posts here.

.



That's absurd Gnarl.

What it DOES do is to point out a fact that you are in denial of.

Sorry that truth hurts you so much....that's not my intention.



.

We both know damned good and well that accusing each other of being in denial is not the path to resolution.

Someone once told me about the concept of "one reality." I've puzzled that one for a long time. But, if there's only one reality, there's only one denial.

Seems like something basic in the difference between "fact" and "opinion" ... but it gets really hard to tell which is which, when so many of our sources are in the business of spinning stuff.

Perhaps a way to have a conversation about this would be to find something you can agree about, with the other parties to the conversation. If you can't, you reduce yourself to the gladiator Sawdust was hoping to release from her cage, when he started this thread, after having only "skimmed" here and there on the subject. He's got no investment, beyond the entertainment value.

Sawdust, I skimmed your rebuttal. Sounds like you turned into the guy who does the negotiations for your cash cow business enterprise. Well, if it works for you, ....

Sometimes I think we are like the Bandar-log, or monkey tribe, in Rudyard Kipling's Jungle Books, who periodically get together and shout, "We all say so, so it must be true!"

So, do we all agree that the article Sawdust quoted (the "inspiration" for this thread) is basically a false argument based on prejudice? And that correcting the distorted view of such MSM stuff is a service to everyone. Especially to those who are too busy making a profit, and rely on the media to give them a perspective on world events and so forth, those that dont have the time or inclination to check the premise of an argument before accepting its conclusion.

quote:

Originally posted by Camp:
All the comments and outakes piled high and deep still do not offer a constructive solution.

Some wish to "connect." I look for answers.

I see no offerings for alternatives. It would appear to me that by deconstructing Israel a way of life is given away without objection, let alone a fight.

It is easy to call the premise of the thread false, but the truth remains lost.

I am not surprised that all the politicians are wore to pebbles at this time. The ideas and means to maintain freedom are being cannabalized as this thread so clearly illustrates.

A perfect example are the Mexican protestors who cannot protest Mexican conditions in Mexico so they flee illegally to the USA to protest not being able to make the US another Mexico. The focus sticks to the US when it should be Mexico. The same has happened in Israel.

Geopolitical ADD? Why not? It makes as much sense as anything else.

The only way we can continue this fun is if we relearn how to say NO to the forces of anarchy. Freedoms and rights are being lost at a faster rate than I ever thought possible. How progressive is it to be forced to consider all people or cultures as equal? I have found some to be most unworthy of such assuptions.

Camp, a solution to what?

Answers to what, what is the question?

See, i said Camp would have left some comments about how i have not given answers to questions i havnt been asked yet.

Alternatives to what, Camp? To - 'you are either with us or with the terrorists'?

I'm not aware anyone said the premise of the thread was false, only that the argument that was the inspiration for the thread contained a false premise, which it does. One normally accepts that when a premise of an argument is false then the argument is false. And needs correcting, as an alternative to prejudice views for example.

I take it the rest of what you had to say had something to do with something.

quote:

Originally posted by mmissinglink:
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Excellent posts Sunrise.


I find it very predictable that those here who clearly paint themselves as Muslim haters and Israeli terrorism / aggression apologists NEVER seem to want to look at this issue objectively.

They seem to believe that the Israeli terrorists and terrorist organizations which you described in brief (and which Time magazine briefly denoted in an issue last year) somehow either never existed or that they were just 'poor victims' of Palestinian people who just want their dignity and to not be brutally subjugated with no other measure of recourse but to committ egregious, random, violence upon innocent Palestinian populations.

Oh, poor Israeli terrorists! Poor babies.


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Cheers mmissinglink.

I'm not sure they actually look at all, never mind objectively. There's the example i posted earlier from Gnarly regarding comments about anti-semitism. There's also the issue of Sawdust having respect for Gnarlies defence of Israel without any substantiation (is that a word?), as if the act of defending Israel, no matter what, is the thing he respects. I suspect, that on the other thread that led to this one, that there was never any attempt to show that there was any false arguments regarding the 'defence' of the palestinians, 'attacks' on Israel, there rarely is.

So from not offering any kind of critique of the argument 'defending' palestinians or 'attacking' Israel, they offer their own argument 'defending' Israel without checking the premise or accepting any critique of it. (Yes yes, the same applies to all regarding insults etc, its just that it's not normaly a substitute for a discussion)

The discussion is here to be had, as it always is, yet 'they' throw around insults, make baseless accusations, play the poor victim role, etc etc etc, anything to avoid discussing whats been presented as the argument that represents their view.

***

With Camp, which is always entertaining, there's the scenario of a court case where the evidence against the accused is presented, and then easily rebuffed because it was shown to be false, lacking credibilty etc. But Camp wants to know how to find the accused guilty, or rather, wants evidence that the accused is innocent before considering an alternative to punishment. Camp asks, 'whats the alternative to guilty verdict?' as if an alternative has to be provided at each and every turn when someone is accused. Very much a kind of guilty until proven innocent thing going on. Odd, for some to accept, but so true for others.

...


So, do we all agree that the article Sawdust quoted (the "inspiration" for this thread) is basically a false argument based on prejudice? And that correcting the distorted view of such MSM stuff is a service to everyone. Especially to those who are too busy making a profit, and rely on the media to give them a perspective on world events and so forth, those that dont have the time or inclination to check the premise of an argument before accepting its conclusion.

quote:

Originally posted by Gnarlodious:
We both know damned good and well that accusing each other of being in denial is not the path to resolution.

Reading some of the inflammatory and wholly offensive things that you've written throughout some of these threads, I find this 'resolution' method of yours intensely bizarre.



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As a person who has lived for ten years with Arabs AND Jews in occupied Palestine, I think I am qualified to be critical of either side, and also qualified to defend either side.

If you consider my opinions to be "inflammatory and wholly offensive" then that is your problem. I doubt that your condemning of my observations is going to resolve anything.

quote:

Originally posted by Gnarlodious:
As a person who has lived for ten years with Arabs AND Jews in occupied Palestine, I think I am qualified to be critical of either side, and also qualified to defend either side.

If you consider my opinions to be "inflammatory and wholly offensive" then that is your problem. I doubt that your condemning of my observations is going to resolve anything.

Where have you been critical of either side Gnarly, do you have any examples to show?

Why would someone considering your opinions to be "inflammatory and wholly offensive" be a problem to them?

Where has anyone condemned your observations?

I'm just wondering what it is you are talking about.

Sawdust:
While I do appreciate your vote of support for me, I had to request the moderator remove my username from this discussion's subject line. It seems Sunrise felt it justified using my username in a subject line in a not-so-complimentary way. In all fairness, there should be a blanket policy of not using usernames in subject lines, as it naturally degenerates into a personal feud (feudalism).

quote:

Originally posted by Gnarlodious:
Sawdust:
While I do appreciate your vote of support for me, I had to request the moderator remove my username from this discussion's subject line. It seems Sunrise felt it justified using my username in a subject line in a not-so-complimentary way. In all fairness, there should be a blanket policy of not using usernames in subject lines, as it naturally degenerates into a personal feud (feudalism).

Justified? There was no justified about it. And i dont see what was not-so-complimentary about it either. It was simply "Gnarl[y] part two" that followed on from this thread called "Gnarl", and i changed it on request.

Are you suggesting that your personal feelings should dictate board policy? And you think that that is fair? Not to mention the strange idea you have that using usernames in subject lines naturally degenerates into a personal feud, is also a personal view (one that perhaps reflects onto the person holding such a view that they engage in personal feuds quite readily).

quote:

Originally posted by Gnarlodious:
As a person who has lived for ten years with Arabs AND Jews in occupied Palestine, I think I am qualified to be critical of either side, and also qualified to defend either side.

No, not necessarily. You certainly paint yourself as someone who has personal bigotry against Muslims or Palestinians and perhaps Arabs in general as well. You don't at all comport yourself as someone who is objective.

quote:

If you consider my opinions to be "inflammatory and wholly offensive" then that is your problem. I doubt that your condemning of my observations is going to resolve anything.

No gnarl, it IS a credibility problem for you and you alone when you behave in such a manner.
I can't force a resolution with someone who is unwilling to be objective and unwilling to be critical of all sides.

Step up to the plate prepared Gnarl, or step off.


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quote:

Originally posted by Gnarlodious:
As a person who has lived for ten years with Arabs AND Jews in occupied Palestine, I think I am qualified to be critical of either side, and also qualified to defend either side.

That is certainly no requisite qualification for being critical of either side or defending either side, but nice effort i suppose, all other things considered.

quote:

Sawdust:
While I do appreciate your vote of support for me, I had to request the moderator remove my username from this discussion's subject line

I changed it on my own. I was mistaken to use your name in the title. My apologies.

mmissinglink:
Yes, I realize the term "bigoted racist" has been used to describe me many times here. I, however, have never called anyone that term. I think the propaganda value of that epithet speaks for itself.

Furthermore, I am not obligated to behave in a manner that you approve of. Your disapproval of my beliefs (and posts) just underscores the fact that you are an authoritarian, and only worthy of rebelling against. I believe that is what "Liberal" means, we are obligated to rebel against tyranny.

Your accusation that I am "unwilling to be objective" is nothing more than your own personal opinion, yet another absolutist authoritarian attitude. I despise you and your authoritarian disapproval. I pledge rebellion against your tyranny until I die.

Let's meet at my friend's falafel shop in Manhattan and discuss it sometime!

quote:

Originally posted by Gnarlodious:
Sawdust:
Thanks for the vote of confidence. It is not so much that I am a defender of Israel, but hopefully can stimulate some reasonableness in the debate. Since there is no end of people who will post extended anti-Israel diatribes, it falls to me to be the opposition. In a rabidly anti-Arab discussion I would no doubt come to the defense of the Arabs.

The brave woman the NYT article refers to, she takes her life in her hands by saying those things. We hope that at some time in the future the Arabs graduate from the medieval mentality of theirs and stop warring with the civilized world.

bigot.

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

racist.

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Some more Gnarly quotes -

quote:

So, while all you antisemites are wringing you hands about the evil rotten Jews, they are taking over the desert because they are smarter than you.

quote:

There is no reason Israel should encourage desert creators like the Arabs to compete with themselves.

We saw this situation graphically when Israel handed over Gaza to the Arabs,

quote:

the Palestinians have no water infrastructure because they are lazy. Go there and you'll see miles and miles of burned dumpsters, trashed irrigation systems and raw sewage running down the street. People living in piles of smoldering stinking garbage while they burn donkey dung to cook their pita bread, people who are incapable of forming government administration of resources.

quote:

The Palestinians are scavengers

***

The list is virtually endless. I dont think she's fully aware of it though. But is that the way to defend Israel?

Like I said, I am openly critical of Arabs, they have a lot to learn about the modern world. Nothing intolerant about that observation. Thanks for the synopsis though.
In point of fact, I like the Arabs. I miss being around them and spend plenty of time listening to Arabic music. You can even see my music collection here:
http://Gnarlodious.com/iTunes.html where you may notice that I have more Arabic music than Hebrew music, if you scroll down.

I'll try not to say anything nice about the Arabs, though, lest it inspire you to skepticism.

quote:

Originally posted by Gnarlodious:
Like I said, I am openly critical of Arabs, they have a lot to learn about the modern world. Nothing intolerant about that observation. Thanks for the synopsis though.
In point of fact, I like the Arabs. I miss being around them and spend plenty of time listening to Arabic music. You can even see my music collection here:
http://Gnarlodious.com/iTunes.html where you may notice that I have more Arabic music than Hebrew music, if you scroll down.

I'll try not to say anything nice about the Arabs, though, lest it inspire you to skepticism.

Ha ha, you like Arab music so that cancells out "bigoted racist" things you say? There are numerous examples of racist bigoted colonialists etc with similar stories to tell about "other" people, "other" cultures. Gnarly, so much of the modern world was learnt from the Arabs. You ought to know that, really. (The Nazis liked Jewish music, did you know? They kept some of the Jewish music makers back, rather than send them away i believe. That puts your words in curious company)

I do wonder whether you are convinced of your own argument, whether your parents were convinced of their horror stories when you were a child.

***

The idea of the "synopsis", was not to show the kind of racist and bigoted things you say, but to show how it is that you attempt to "defend Israel". As in it is not so much that you are a defender of Israel, you are not. Not unless being a defender of Israel means making racist and bigoted comments about Arabs/Palestinians/Muslims -

quote:

Originally posted by Gnarlodious:
Sawdust:
Thanks for the vote of confidence. It is not so much that I am a defender of Israel, but hopefully can stimulate some reasonableness in the debate. Since there is no end of people who will post extended anti-Israel diatribes, it falls to me to be the opposition. In a rabidly anti-Arab discussion I would no doubt come to the defense of the Arabs.

The brave woman the NYT article refers to, she takes her life in her hands by saying those things. We hope that at some time in the future the Arabs graduate from the medieval mentality of theirs and stop warring with the civilized world.

Would your "defense of the Arabs(?)" entail making racist and bigoted comments about Jews?

Sunrise, you are really deserving of pity. All you can do is troll these boards looking for someone to accuse, call names and generally get a soap opera going.

This is a witch hunt you are on, Sunrise. I am Jewish and proud of it, and you should be proud of being Arab. Let's both be proud of what we are together. No need to hurl insults at each other.

quote:

Originally posted by Gnarlodious:

another absolutist authoritarian attitude

Gnarl,

You've bercome painfully predictable. You accuse me of behaving in the very ways that you yourself behave. Can you say H Y P O C I T E ?



.

Hippocite? I don't even know what that is.
Is it anything like http://SaveTheHippos.com/ ?

Gnarly (still not given up on the 'convincing' then), try this one -

Your "defense of Israel" is akin to defending the Nazis by calling Jews "vermin". ("medieval mentality" "warring with the civilized world" "desert creators" "incapable" "Palestinians are scavengers").

And then defending that by announcing simply that you are a 'Nazi' and proud, as if being "proud" is anything to go by.

Are you feeling insulted or proud of the similarity?

***

I see you reverted back to playing the poor little victim routine ( "victimology with a vengeance"? ) . Saying that i troll, saying i'm derserving pity and so forth, all without the slightest hint of irony.

quote:

Gnarly:

Sunrise, you are really deserving of pity. All you can do is troll these boards looking for someone to accuse, call names and generally get a soap opera going.

This is a witch hunt you are on, Sunrise. I am Jewish and proud of it, and you should be proud of being Arab. Let's both be proud of what we are together. No need to hurl insults at each other.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sunrise part two,

Offer nothing. Slam everything. Yawn.

Why don't you just admit islam won't stop until the world is dar al islam? We know the deal.

quote:

Originally posted by Gnarlodious:
Hippocite? I don't even know what that is.

I figured you wouldn't...let me help you out:

hyp-o-crite
n,
1) a person who professes beliefs and opinions that he does not hold (source: WordNet)

2) a person who behaves like Gnarlodious


An important book for every objective mind


An important film for anyone serious about understanding the issue of the Israeli's and Palestinians.


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