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America's founders did not intend for there to be a separation of God and state, as shown by the fact that all 50 states acknowledge God in their state constitutions:

US troops continue to risk their lives for our freedom.

Read your state's declaration.

GG, this is from the US constitution , which trumps the state constitution:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

this means that the government is to take no official stance on any one religion. this solidifies the point of separation of church and state.

btw, i noticed that quite a few of the state amendments did not actually mention God, but yet a supreme ruler of the universe, the supreme legistlator, and the creator. to differnt religious groups, these mean differnt things. to a muslim, that would be allah. to jews it is yahweh.

Is it possible to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and render unto God that which is God's? Seems like someone was trying to say some things are earthly and some are spiritual, and there is no shame in keeping the two apart. Also, if you believe that the two should not be separated, then would you be alright with state-religion if a Muslim majority should arise?

well said lisa. somehow i think that GG's standing on seperation of church and state will reverse itself if a muslim majority should ever be elected in this country. she will be the first clamoring for seperatation if and whenever it may occur.

funny how you approve of issues only when its convienant to your side GG, but as soon as the same issue helps someone elses case, you jump ship. case in point, you made this statement to me a while back:

"Common sense - Do not speak out against your government during a time of war!!!"-GG, oct 15

"GET MY POINT! You don't sound AMERICAN. You don't slam your government during a time of war"-GG, oct

i hope you wont be slamming hillary or obama when either one of them are president in 08. after all, you dont speak out against your government in a time of war, you anti-american!

The "separation of church and state" does not appear anywhere in the US Constitution. It is a contrived devisiveness of the ACLU to deny freedom of religion for Americans, but to force 'religion of secularism', or any other religion as long as it is not 'Christian. Thank you once again ACLU for not protecting American liberties. And they are doing it so efficently. This is a well funded organization that imposes upon schools, courts, organizations- - that they do not have the freedom for Christian expressions in the market place.

I congratulate Wal-Mart for saying MERRY CHRISTMAS in their stores this year. They are to be commended.

LisaP

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Also, if you believe that the two should not be separated, then would you be alright with state-religion if a Muslim majority should arise?

There is no such thing as a Muslim who can support American freedom. The peaceful Muslims fear for their lives and will not oppose Islamofascists and Jihardists and all the different variations of Islam that believe all infidels should die.

How could any American say yes to your question unless they are willing to give up all their freedoms and return to 7th & 8th century style living?

so in other words you harbor hypocritical views. you are ok with christianity being thrown in peoples face but not any other religion. but then again that would make sence coming from a catholic

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Originally posted by GG:
The "separation of church and state" does not appear anywhere in the US Constitution. It is a contrived devisiveness of the ACLU to deny freedom of religion for Americans, but to force 'religion of secularism', or any other religion as long as it is not 'Christian. Thank you once again ACLU for not protecting American liberties.

The "right to a fair trial" does not appear any where in the Constitution either, but thinking people understand that this is the intent of having a trial judged by your peers..

That's the problem today--nobody thinks about what ideologues are saying. We are becoming a nation of "Know Nothings"..

Like Abe Lincoln said:

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"As a nation, we began by declaring that 'all men are created equal'. We now practically read it 'all men are created equal, except negroes'. When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read 'all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics'. When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy."


-------Abraham Lincoln, in a letter to Joshua Speed, August 1855

.

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Originally posted by ftmyersfisherman:
so in other words you harbor hypocritical views. you are ok with christianity being thrown in peoples face but not any other religion. but then again that would make sence coming from a catholic

The problem there is Catholics are not in the majority here and never will be. Do we want to have all our laws dictated by the rapture right?

Does GG want the government coming into her church and forcing the crucifix to be removed, the statues destroyed and be told she cannot celebrate the Eucharist and believe it is the true flesh and blood of Christ and be thrown in jail for heresy for practicing the same? Does she want to have a society that forces you to denounce the pope to stop all rituals in the church because they are deemed satanic by the majority?

Well that is exactly what will happen if the autoritarian fundamentalist Evangelicals get a hold of the government, and deem it's teachings as the accepted religion for this country.

There is no harm in generic placement of "In God We Trust" on money and selected places but there is massive harm to democracy when it moves into any governing body in this country. Then, the free practice and refusal to practice a religion comes under attack, and opens the door for theocracy not unlike what is seen in Afganistan and Iran.

The majority religion will trump all others and being a practicing catholic will then become a criminal activity. Many fundamentalist protestant religions do not recognize catholics of even being remotely "christian", and would like nothing more than to ban what they see as evil rituals by a bunch of brainwashed individuals, who do not follow the bible the exact way it is written hence are not saved and going to hell.

This is unimaginable and should never be allowed in this country or else some very faithful people could find themselves on the wrong side of the Land's chosen religion.

I have always despised Walmart and their treatment of their workers and this gives me a new reason to continue to not shop there this year. There are several religions and groups that celebrate big holidays in the same period of time.

To exclude others is ignorant and hateful and is not what the spirit of this country is supposed to be about. Walmart is aware of the possible backlash and has deceptively lowered it's prices on toys and electronics to a range far below what any other business could compete with. They are nothing but scoundrels in every one of their business practices.

denise i agree with you on walmart. they cut health benifits for both full time and part time employees (oops! i mean associates!) they have placed caps on pay for employees and the recent changing of the slogan from happy holidays to merry christmas is just a way to further commercialize and cheapen the real reason for christmas, which is the birth of christ. selling toys real cheap while employees get paid next to nothing really personifies the christmas spirit, dont you think? i only go to walmart for 2 things, my dog food for my dog and for fishing supplies. other then that, i avoid walmart like a plague.

fisherman

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so in other words you harbor hypocritical views. you are ok with christianity being thrown in peoples face but not any other religion. but then again that would make sence coming from a catholic

What a ludicrous conclusion. The Catholic Church proposes IT DOES NOT impose. How many years have we had the freedom for public respected religious expressions and it is now being denied through policies and laws enacted by the lower court judges often times referencing foreign law (as if our vets died for foreign law!! - it's outrageous ) and snubbing the US Constitution. It has become perfectly acceptable to teach other disgusting things for instance in the class room.

There is alot of emphasis today to not remember our roots and to encourage the practice of that which violates Judeo-Christianity. Infact you are politically correct and encouraged to mock it, especially the Catholic Church beginning in the class rooms - and Hollywood is steeped in Catholic bashing.

Why are you blinded to the current trends that have ravaged what is truth, what is goodness, and what is beautiful? We never had a perfect world nor will we ever, for humanity is afflicted with concupiscence. But we have the capacity to achieve our ultimate goal and to achieve happiness when we renounce pride and sins of the intellect. Humanity has a high calling and too often settles for less than human choices that creates diseases, destroys families, instills the fear to reproduce themselves (naturally and spiritually), and fails solidarity and the common good, contributing to a civilization of love grown cold.

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contributing to a civilization of love grown cold.

This is the perfect description of the neocon gop agenda

Denise,

I was challenged possibly 6 months ago on what is a terrorist or what is terrorism. After alot of deliberation before I posted I concluded with this:

"The ultimate manifestation of terrorism
is a civilization of love grown cold."

I believe that humanbeings are not acknowledging their natural greatness. The are being taught and/or are submitting to reckless behavior. Wisdom to deal with major social issues is being withheld; therefore, we are and continue to create slave classes.

BTW, I am a conservative. I know you did not put my name to "neo" - I just wanted to clarify.

I like what you posted to fisherman about the ocean. Going to the ocean to me is like going to get a breath of fresh air; a way of getting re-energized, refreshed and renewed. Water is so comforting, and then it's the mountains and country side. Resorting to any one of these even for a mini retreat puts things back in perspective.

Hope you are well.

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BTW, I am a conservative. I know you did not put my name to "neo" - I just wanted to clarify

and all this time i thought you were a liberal

"I like what you posted to fisherman about the ocean. Going to the ocean to me is like going to get a breath of fresh air; a way of getting re-energized, refreshed and renewed. Water is so comforting, and then it's the mountains and country side. Resorting to any one of these even for a mini retreat puts things back in perspective"

yes , enjoying nature is one way to heal the mind and souls and allow someone to focus on issues that effect us all. as i have said in the fish thread, the status of the oceans is a barometer to the overall health of the earth. if we destroy the earth and nature on it, does it really matter if we do/dont have abortions? or if we are democrats/republicans ? if there is no green earth to bring the next generation into, is it really worth bringing them into a world full of pollution, dead wildlife, or a world where one cant swim or enjoy the oceans because it is now just toxic sludge?

"Resorting to any one of these even for a mini retreat puts things back in perspective"

yes, i agree 100% with that GG. if people even only take a few hours every week to enjoy nature it really puts things into perspective. its a shame some people would rather see nothing but asphalt, concrete, and steel in their daily lives.

fisherman

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if we destroy the earth and nature on it, does it really matter if we do/dont have abortions? . . . .? if there is no green earth to bring the next generation into, is it really worth bringing them into a world full of pollution, dead wildlife, or a world where one cant swim or enjoy the oceans because it is now just toxic sludge?

And if you kill off all the humans, who are you saving it for HHHMMMMMMMMMMM??????? what's the point if you do not respect life. And the babies that are not allowed to breathe life, you are going to neglect the sufferings of mothers and fathers by cleaning up the earth first? Got things backwards, don't you think? Why are you hardened to the sufferings parents of the 47 Million who felt they had not other choice but to kill. Why aren't you spending time providing preferential options?

There is an order to creation and a civilization of love grown cold WILL NOT save your 'mother earth'. Life is precious and must be defended first. And we must give wounded parents and those associated with abortion permission to heal. Healing does not begin by denying and covering over what has happened. There is no riding off into the sunset and live happily ever after. Wounded spirits have consequences.

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yes , enjoying nature is one way to heal the mind and souls and allow someone to focus on issues that effect us all.

Natural beauty "God's footprints" speak so eloquently about how much God loves us and provided for us the wonder of his creation. He understood more than any could what would appeal to humanbeings. It is rich spiritual food. It all sings to his praise and glory.

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Destruction of the ecology is a direct result of not saving life first. It's the blood shed by the babies not allowed to breathe life. It's a smoke screen to save the earth first. It's not the real agenda

illegal wars waged by george bush isnt saving lives either, yet you continualy justify all the deaths there. btw men, woman, AND BABIES are being killed in the name of the 'war on terror', or as i prefer to call it, iraqinam

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and all this time i thought you were a liberal

I'm a conservative, not a neo conservative.

Are you a neo-liberal?

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I'm a conservative, not a neo conservative

somehow, i dont think anyone on this site believes that. your views are that of the neo conservative kind. dont fool yourself. you certainly are not fooling us.

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BTW, I am a conservative. I know you did not put my name to "neo" - I just wanted to clarify.

GG,
Not personally directed at you at all.
About certain members of the Bush administration who are looking for perpetual war to keep unending corporate profits, by raiding the commons of this country causing the US to be bankrupt and corporations to flourish on the backs of the taxpayers and invaded countries.

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Hope you are well.

Why ty GG, yes i am doing well how's everything Down East?

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Originally posted by GG:

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and all this time i thought you were a liberal

I'm a conservative, not a neo conservative.

Are you a neo-liberal?

Oh come on GG deep under that crusty, maine, conservative exterior is a little liberal just screaming to get out! Embrace your inner liberal!!!!

Denise

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Why ty GG, yes i am doing well how's everything Down East?

Maine is beautiful - but the recent election results were unbelievably dissapointing. We have a force within that is going to destroy our state. We are already the state that pays the highest taxes in the US and the job market continues to lag because it cannot promote a profitable business climate.

Maine has alot of out of state retirees - a good place they say to get away from the busy world, yet the ones working struggle with a high tax burden and run in the fast lane in order to keep up.

maine has had a conservative controlled governor plus a conservative controlled legistlation. if you didnt vote for change and kept the same ppl who you even said "the job market CONTINUES to lag" ,"highest taxes in the united states". if you boted to keep the same ppl who have sublected the citizens of maine to high taxes and a lagging job market, then you cannot blame others.

btw, since you are avoiding this question on the other thread. i will ask it of you EVERYWHERE you post:

do you approve of abortions where the womans life is in danger, theres rape, or incest?


i know you want to avoid the question because that would mean actually taking a position on the matter, but inquiring minds would like to know how you stand

GG,
FYI, please read the whole story, it describes the Vatican's ruling on the subject.

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JAMES CARROLL
What would Cardinal Cushing do?
By James Carroll | December 19, 2005
THE DISPUTE OVER whether it is appropriate, in public, to say ''Happy Holidays" instead of ''Merry Christmas" puts me in mind of Cardinal Richard Cushing. He was my boss when I was Catholic Chaplain at Boston University, and I loved him. In the early 1950s, Cushing forced one of the great changes in Catholic theology by excommunicating Father Leonard Feeney for preaching on Boston Common that ''there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church." As is true of today's exclusivist claims for a Christian meaning of ''the holidays," there was an undercurrent of antisemitism in Feeney's exclusivist claim for Catholicism. An inch below all Christian triumphalism is special contempt for Jews who reject the idea that Jesus is the saving Messiah. Robust assertions of the one meaning of the winter celebration are a version of the claim that there is only one way to God. Jews may not accept that, but how dare they forbid the dominant Christian culture from celebrating its dominance.

What made Cushing's excommunication of Feeney astounding was that Feeney's line had been official Church teaching for most of a thousand years: No salvation outside the Church. Feeney confidently appealed to Rome, forcing the Vatican to take a position on the question. When the Vatican supported Cushing and upheld the excommunication of Feeney, the long-held doctrine of Catholic exclusivism was overturned.

Complete story

Denise - I will read the article. Is it the happy holiday message or the salvation message you are questioning or both.

From the Compendium/Cathechism of the Catholic Church, para. 171

What is the meaning of the affirmation "Outside the Church there is no salvation"?

"This means that all salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church which is his body. Hence they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her or remain in her. At the same time, thanks to Christ and to his Church, those who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ and his Church but sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, try to do his will as it is known through the dictates of conscience can attain salvation."


The Boston Globe has a reputation of bashing the Catholic Church whenever possible. I am going to ask a couple of friends if they are familiar with James Carroll.

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do you approve of abortions where the womans life is in danger, theres rape, or incest?

Later today or tomorrow, fisherman.

Remember the doctor has a grave responsibility to save both the mother and the child.

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maine has had a conservative controlled governor plus a conservative controlled legistlation.

On which planet are you referring? You've got to be kiddin'.