"I'm not a woman, this is a complex issue, and I don't think government should interfere with the doctor/patient relationship by making decisions for either."
What a blatant cop out! Even Al Gore believes in legislating morality - ask him? He said global warming caused by humans (except for his consumption) is a "moral issue that needs to be corrected". He and Maurice STrong stand shoulder to shoulder on enforcing their contrived morality on the world.
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
One more thing, Jason. History might prove fighting the spread of terror in Iraq to be wrong, but it is with unfailing certainty, abortion in any generation is ALWAYS wrong.
I do not pride myself in the fact that I am so expert in bringing forward the atrocity of abortion. Most could do better than me, but where are they? I beginning with what I know to be true, as inexpertly as they manner may be. God help me in this endeavor for it is by far the major war in civilization today.
3500 daily just in this country die and 126,000 world wide die daily. And you say it's not your problem?? I don't buy it, Jason. If you exist, it's your problem as well as mine!
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
Now, if you want to discuss the horrible way in which abortion is/can be used as a profitable enterprise, we'll have a subject to discuss and most likely agree on.
What do you mean CAN be? Those who want to destroy capitalism will never discouss the evil of blood money in this killing industry.
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
What is wrong with my approach? Would you please explain.
Your approach is to brush a broad stoke over the issue and have government violently punish the doctor and/or woman for engaging in the abortion process.
If your commitment is to stop abortions, than that is the wrong approach. Making something illegal doesn't stop it from happening. Just go to our overcrowded prisons for proof of that.
Also, your approach is to completely discount the woman -- as if she doesn't matter, as if her life is less important than her child's, and as if you get to make that call.
You look at it one sided. You have plenty of statistics demonstrating the pain and suffering of woman who have abortions (as if anyone thinks they're happy they did it), but you never want to consider the pain and suffering of forcing a woman to have a child (or forcing her to use a dark alley butcher because the safe procedure is illegal).
So, the real question, before you can go any further, is, "Do you want to end abortions, or do you just want to sadistically punish those who behave contrary to how you want them to?"
quote:
The war in Iraq is complicated and I don't want to get distracted on this at this point.
Talk about cop-outs! You never seem to demonstrate concern for any life -- unless it is unborn. Why?
GG you have no credibility. The only thing you have demonstrated any expertese of in this thread is spreading misinformation and lies.
You have attemped to slander several individuals and organizations in this thread not with actual factual information from legitimate sources but through false quotes fake attributions, highly biased sources and as far as I can determine simply making crap up.
You claim that the ACLU mainly represents atheists and is hostile to the religious I show you numerous examples where this simply isn't the case. You claim that Sanger is a racist and a euginicist yet every available reference to her actual words runs completely counter to your assertion.
You falsely attributed a pro-establishment quote to James Madison implying that he supported the endorsement of established religion where he most certainly did not.
You are a dupe, You've been fed a pack of lies and regurgitate said lies as revealed truth, then gasp in frustration and fall back on mindless moralization when reality discounts your "facts" .
You look at this issue and you see murder I look at the same issue and I see a complex issue with many shades of gray with no easy answers.
Now if you really really wanted to reduce the number of abortions then you'd try to address some of the issues that lead women to make the choice to abort a fetus.
[quote]In 2000, cases of rape or incest accounted for 1.0% of abortions.[3] Another study, in 1998, revealed that women reported the following reasons for choosing an abortion:[4]
25.5% Want to postpone childbearing 21.3% Cannot afford a baby 14.1% Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy 12.2% Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy 10.8% Having a child will disrupt education or job 7.9% Want no (more) children 3.3% Risk to fetal health 2.8% Risk to maternal health 2.1% Other [quote]
The first could mainly be addressed with proper sex education and the use of contraceptive.
The second is a big one, The current set up of our capitalist economy is not conducive towards child rearing. Child care is expensive employers are in general hostile towards working mothers and frankly our current priority of focusing on profit and productivity make it extremely challenging to even consider having a child.
The third can't really be addressed by society save for going with option 1 of sexual education and birth control to prevent unwanted pregnancies.
On the fourth cause see 1 and 3 for solutions
On 5 we have a mix of an economic system that is set against mothers and a need for better sexual education.
6 see 1 3 4 and 5
7, 8 and 9 are the hard ones and probably the ones we just can't do anything about other than call them tragigies and offer support for the mothers.
The primary way to prevent abortions is to ensure that people have access to accurate information about conception and contraception.
The goal should be if you were really interested in signifincantly reducing the number of abortions is to reduce the need for them. That is if your true interest was to stop the negative effects of the action.
And that is what the focus of the left is in general. Not just for the sake of preventing abortions but for giving people a better life in general.
If you really want to address this problem then you need to be addressing the cause. You have a choice in this case.
You can continue to spew meaningless rhetoric and bile at people who really are actively working to make society better in the hopes that you can force the government to regulate the behavior you object to, Or you could recognize the real causes of the proceedure you object too. Instead of assuming that woman who are having abortions as a form of birth control because they are promiscious little sluts, look at the real reasons.
Mostly its a lack of education and economic conditions. There is a reason that abortion rates go down in good economic times and increase in bad ones.
There is a reason that abortion rates went down under the pro-choice Clinton administration and up during Bush's anti-choice.
There are volumes of research that show that affirmative motivation is superior to negative motivation for influencing behavior.
So the solution to the abortion problem isn't the prohibition of abortion but rather the reduction in it's need.
The way you and the rest of the "pro-life" crowd go about addressing the issue just doesn't work. Never has never will.
If you were to take all this energy that you expend lying for the right and redirected that towards changing society in such a way as to make having a child an easier option you would reduce the amount of abortions. If you were to teach young women how their reproductive systems work and provide access to effective birth control and its proper use you would reduce the need for abortion.
So the question is this. Do you really care about the fetus or do you simply want to control the women?
Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion<br />The Treaty of Tripoli 1797
Originally posted by Skex Relbore: GG you have no credibility. The only thing you have demonstrated any expertese of in this thread is spreading misinformation and lies.
Skex, why don't you jump into a prolife forum or conservative forum with all this information you put in this post? Why haven't you done it before now if you feel so secure in what you state? Is it not worth the effort to you?
Why don't you risk going into UNfamiliar territory? I would be greatly interested in your pursuit, I really mean it.
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
Originally posted by Skex Relbore: GG you have no credibility. The only thing you have demonstrated any expertese of in this thread is spreading misinformation and lies.
Skex, why don't you jump into a prolife forum or conservative forum with all this information you put in this post? Why haven't you done it before now if you feel so secure in what you state? Is it not worth the effort to you?
Why don't you risk going into UNfamiliar territory? I would be greatly interested in your pursuit, I really mean it.
Who's to say I haven't?
I don't tend to hang out in conservative forums though for a couple of reasons. One I actually don't have any real interest in forcing my views on others so I do not as a general rule go out looking for people who disagree with me for the simple purpose of changing their minds. Because in the end one can not change the mind of another. I don't argue with you because I hope too change your mind GG. Only you can do that. I simply point out the misinformation you relly upon so that others are not duped into your belief system.
Two Arbortion just isn't an issue I'm all that concerned about. While I am highly supportive of a womans right to self determination I do not consider it the primary struggle of our age. It is a foot note a side issue put forth by unscrupulous individuals to distract people from more important issues. If we appropriately address other failings in our society abortion rates go down. It is a happy bit of synchronicity that addressing the needs of actual humans also reduces the amount of abortions and the phychological trauma associeted with the act.
In fact I did not enter this thread because of the abortion question but because I happen to have a very large interest as an Atheist in America in maintaining the current seperation of Church and State. Because historically the church and people like you have not exactly been kind to people like me. In fact there are quite a few examples of a hell of a lot of violence directed at non-believers.
You and your ilk are dangerous to me and my family. Actual real living breathing human beings and not some theoretical potential person.
And I do not care to let lies be spread as truth when I see them. And you GG spread lies like nobodies business and I don't even think you know you are doing so.
Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion<br />The Treaty of Tripoli 1797
Talk about cop-outs! You never seem to demonstrate concern for any life -- unless it is unborn. Why?
The bottom line Jason, is that there is a war against 'motherhood'. An Abortion kills a baby everytime, except for a few babies that are strong enough to survive and than we have the Barack Obamas that war still further not to give these babies medical treatment and are left to die alone.
The delliberate destruction of human UNborn life has led to further acceptance of killing others considered not having quality of life. The Supreme Court Judges have set all civilization on a slippery slope towards more and more ways to kill.
I'm making another plea that men come to the fullness of their manhood and be defenders of women and children God intended them to be.
Will you, Jason, rise up from your paralyzed testosterone-zoned posture?
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
I don't tend to hang out in conservative forums though for a couple of reasons.
Obviously I am UNqualified to make you understand and to look at the reality of the holocaust of abortion. Does that mean I should give up? Absolutely not. We all need to fight this war against the unborn right where we are and not wait until we think we have all the necessary requirements to do it expertly. I am the LEAST expert in this forum on anything, but I am whole heartedly convicted and have the zeal to learn how to improve in speaking out.
I believe you do not HANG OUT in conservative forums because you are inadequately convicted to reason your position and you lack the zeal to seek ways to discuss your position better because of that ol' tolerance thing.
I've heard most of the arguments, I think, of why abortion is considered necessary. Choosing a wrong action for an intended good result will NEVER be acceptable reasoning. In order to achieve a good, each step must never include destruction. How sad that you think Any good at all can come from abortions.
I'm not in this forum to form a mutual admiration society. If that were so I would have given up long ago. Attack what I post all you want. I'm not too proud to ask that you make your voice known that these killing procedures are totally unacceptable if human civilization is to continue. A society stricken with fear of the future does not protect their progeny, does not reproduce itself. For instance, Europeans are disappearing off the face of the earth and are striving to sustain their enonomy with immigration; but it's not working.
Evil spreads because good men are silent.
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
I do not go looking for conservatives not for a lack of convictions but for a lack of desire to waste my time.
You've been in this thread for 7 pages and over 3000 post repeating the same lies and misinformation like a broken record and while you may have conviction in your beliefs you are completely lacking in substance.
You are a collection platitudes and contraditions you say you value life and human dignity but you support institutions, people and policies that are against both.
You question my convictions because I do not value a mass of cells the same as I do a living breathing thinking human being. And fool yourself not these feti you loose so much sleep worrying about are nothing more than collections of cells. They do not have the context and functionality to experience the pain that you would in your strange misguided way spare them from and put on the shoulders of living breathing human beings that are equiped to experience the pain and suffering that result from your beliefs.
You think you are some sort of martyr much like your fellow religious whack jobs who flew airliners into the world trade center and pentagon saw themselves as.
I don't believe you have any concern for life I don't believe that you have any compasion for life unborn or born. I think you do this too please yourself. I futher think you come here to a hostile forum to blabber on about your agonizing not in order to change anyones point of view but to feed your sick perverted wish to be persecuted.
Much like so many Christians who don't seem to be happy unless they percieve some great injustice being perpetrated against them.
Well I've got news for you. You are not the oppressed you are the oppressor you're just pissed off because the majority of society flipped you and your kind the proverbial bird with Roe V Wade.
You have the nerve to question my conviction and courage, You who are so afraid that you require an invisible freind to get you through the day?
You are the coward GG, You jump at all the little boogiemen that are put forth to scare your tiny little petty mind.
"Oh the Muslems are coming to get us, oh me oh my, please take my freedoms oh and you can take everyone elses' too"
"there are only several hundred million Europeans left they're going extinct"
You've not made one point in this entire thread.
You have no credibility because you don't bother to actually check your sources. You post mindless drivel that has been put forth to decieve you and then play the poor little victim when we call you on your lies.
Poor little GG who is not up to the task that she has set upon her fragile shoulders constantly assualted by those ebil fetus hating libruls.
I'd tell you to go away but what would be the point like a good little sub you'll just be back for more abuse.
Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion<br />The Treaty of Tripoli 1797
The bottom line Jason, is that there is a war against 'motherhood'. An Abortion kills a baby everytime, except for a few babies that are strong enough to survive and than we have the Barack Obamas that war still further not to give these babies medical treatment and are left to die alone.
War kills innocent people every time, and every day it's waged. No sin is greater or lesser than any other. If you cower when asked about one, what you say about the other is meaningless. You're just washing the outside of the cup, but keeping the inside dirty.
quote:
Will you, Jason, rise up from your paralyzed testosterone-zoned posture?
Shall I beat my chest or my wife?
This kind of appeal may work on the "ignorant masses," but I'm a little more advanced than that. My balls are just fine, and suffer no inferiority complex, thank you very much.
You are avoiding the subject with this rhetorical regurgitation.
Original Sin is a broad subject. What specifically do you want me to tell you about that I understand?
I'm not looking for regurgitations of what others say -- I'm wondering what your understanding of it is. It's relevant to your selective approach to judging current sin.
War kills innocent people every time, and every day it's waged. No sin is greater or lesser than any other. If you cower when asked about one, what you say about the other is meaningless. You're just washing the outside of the cup, but keeping the inside dirty.
War is negotiable.
Abortion is never negotiable.
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
It's relevant to your selective approach to judging current sin.
A nation has a grave responsibility to keep its citizens safe. I believe the threats of Islamafasicts because they have stated they want to rule the world; that is their own words, Jason.
Shari'a is a major threat to human civilization.
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
A nation has a grave responsibility to keep its citizens safe. I believe the threats of Islamafasicts because they have stated they want to rule the world; that is their own words, Jason.
Shari'a is a major threat to human civilization.
So you're not pro-life? You do believe there are times when it's appropriate to kill and maim woman, children, and of course men?
In which case, you have no moral right to decide how others might choose when and when not to kill. Since you have your own set of rules regarding this.
So you're not pro-life? You do believe there are times when it's appropriate to kill and maim woman, children, and of course men?
It's a terrible grevious consequence of war. It is believed that the Iraqi war was a 'premptive war' and not a just war and a majorly complicated issue. As citizens we do not know all that was involved in the BIpartisan decision to invade Iraq. Hindsight tells us we did not have all the facts straight, and in war errors will be made. Such is the human condition. Democrats and Republicans made a decision bipartisanly to invade because they recognized the threat to the world building in Iraq.
This nation has been ungoing attacks for about 20 years by radical Muslims. But we have trivilized it; not stood our ground and allowed Americans, Europeans and Africans to be killed as well by radical Muslims.
We know with certainty that there are protections that our troops in Iraq should have and are being denied. Why are our troops being denied ALL the necessary equipment needed to protect them as THEY PROTECT US?
It just is positively amazingly AWFUL how this war has been USED to advance many politicians' ambition for power. Look at the spending attachments on the bill to support the troops (WHAT A JOKE - SUPPORT!). The bill attaches the tax payers money to pay for constituencies. On the backs of mained and faithful troops, we will pay peanut farmers and spinach growers and ILLEGALS, and a slush fund for 2008 presidential election!! thank you pelosi and rosie and sean penns and ALL!! How disgraceful they are to do that to our troops and to their families.
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
Furthermore, Jason, if and it appears that our troops will soon be withdrawn before Iraq is secured. You and many will regret such action. Islamofascists are filled with glee over the house and senates recent votes to withdraw from Iraq. They could have written the script. This is Vietnam all over again.
You feeling gleeful also, Jason?
"Who Hates America? by Michael Reagan 03/16/2007
If you believe the media and the cry-baby left, the entire world hates the United States of America. I don’t believe that. The reality of it is they don't hate us; they just love our money and wish they could get their hands on more of it. That's all the rest of the world ever cared about."
I have not forgotten. I'm working on thing that I have been wanting to discuss that is rooted in 'original sin'. Just need some time to get it together.
quote:
Forget the fluff. Admit that you are pro-death. You, contrary to your Christian faith, believe there are times when killing is OK.
I believe in the inalienable right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Abortion is a non-negotiable, war is the result of humanity's pride, arrogance, and sinful nature.
"The children living and growing in the womb right now endure a great risk without having chosen it. They live in a place that has become more dangerous than any battlefield or terrorist target, and their lives hang in the balance at every moment. They did not choose this risk; someone else chose it for them.
We are always told of reasons why we can’t speak up against abortion. If we speak in Church, we’re told it’s too political; if we speak in the political arena, we’re told it’s too religious. If we speak in the media we’re told it’s too disturbing; in the educational realm, it’s too disruptive. On the public streets, it’s too distressing for children; in the business world it’s too controversial, in the family it’s too divisive, and in social settings it’s just impolite. So if abortion is wrong, where do we go to say so?" (copied from Priests for Life)
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
I believe in the inalienable right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Yes, that liberal Jefferson was quite the author.
quote:
Abortion is a non-negotiable, war is the result of humanity's pride, arrogance, and sinful nature.
Is this your way of saying those that get killed in war deserve it, thus absolving their murderer from guilt? Would you like to see the pictures of the maimed, the killed?
quote:
"The children living and growing in the womb right now endure a great risk without having chosen it. They live in a place that has become more dangerous than any battlefield or terrorist target, and their lives hang in the balance at every moment. They did not choose this risk; someone else chose it for them."
Under this logic, no one choses life or the risks thereof. Are you saying once we are born suddenly we *did* choose to be here? You think the many that are killed in war chose the risk? Are you that un-informed about the horrors of war?
So, I ask you again: will you plainly admit that you are pro-death. That you think there are situations where it is justifiable to kill and maim women, children, and men?
Discussion Community 
