I just finished reading a book about Hilter. I was interested because people have compared this administration to him. The book was really interesting but it wasn't until I read the last couple paragraphs in the book that I became truly scared. "Hilter's Holocaust did not start with the gas chambers of Auschwitz. It did not start with the brutality of Kristallnacht. It began with the first tiny dent in civil liberties, the first denial of protecton of one small groups rights". Justice Robert H. Jackson a prosecutor at the Nuremberg trials stated "The wrongs which we seek to condeem and punish have been so malignant and devasting that civilzation cannot tolerate their being ignored because it cannot survive their being repeated".
WE THE PEOPLE need to band together and get rid of these criminals in Washington DC and take our country back.

Hitler would have delighted in the Patriot Act. Bush's Executive Orders are similar to Hitler's first decrees. Hitler's rise to power was aided by conservative Christians and industrialists.

The Nazis had their own private army. The private army of Blackwater is accountable to who?

The similarities are certainly there. I hope we have a different outcome.

The very extreme excesses of fascism come to the fore after power has been solidified...not before.

Retired Monk
"Ideology is a disease"

This is a very important topic, to New York City. This comment is addressed to Polycarp, who I have read for almost a year, and all my friends near the Mile-High City. I prioritize personal friendships, then subsistence activities, then Spirituality, then government. I've derived this from Thom, and I am only tangentially, but for no-one else visiting with the Catholic Church. I cannot understand, the lak of fous and analysis-backwards, from government, to friendship. This is importatant to me, because it seems to me that the 'NeoCons' justify themselves, generally with backwards priorities!

What is the basic difference between prioritizing personal relationships over government? People come first. They should come first in every consideration government ever makes.

Government is the people. It reflects the basic values of the people who elect it. The reflection often isn't a comfortable one to look at.

The Catholic Church, like any religion, has a basic dogma, a basic belief struture that is taught. That basic structure has as many interpretations as it does members. An idea of totally shared beliefs is an illusion among the members themselves. Everything, even basic teaching, is filtered through the personal interpretations of one's own mind.

What appears agreement outwardly, inwardly finds discord if the root issues are discussed to their very cores of understanding.

A basic teaching, debated even among Christians is this: Do No Harm. Subject those 3 words to a billion minds, and you will come up with a billion ideas of just what "harm" is or isn't!!

We are social beings. That places relationships as our focus. To the degree we ignore that, we flee from our own natures. Our nation's values reflect flight from that nature. Our filled prisons and mental instutions are just some of the symptoms of that.

Don't separate personal friendships/relationships from "spirituality". A strengthening of either leads to a strengthening of the other.

An elected government reflets where the nation is spiritually...a reflection of that which is humane...that which makes us human, or it reflects a distortion of that.

Neo-cons reflect a distoration. A mentally healthy human being has no interest in promoting that sort of thing and will try to protect others from it just as they would try to save a child from drowning. Keep a life raft handy.

Retired Monk
"Ideology is a disease"

One wrong leads to the infinity of wrongs.
On my own, I have found my life raft, and I for them...it's the National Action Network, with over thiry-five outposts around our nation. Ultimately, we peacefully carry on the works of Dr. Martin Luther King, and ideas of such folks as Frederick Douglas, Rosa Parks, and others before him, and are carried forward by large numbers of eloquent leaders, primarily from our American Black Churches. Our President, Reverend Al Sharpton, proplerly co-ordinates peaceful resistance training and action at our outposts, and forges new outposts in and around the Western Hemisphere. We CANNOT reflect ways of existence, which perpetuate the degradation of the human being, and the destruction of dignity!!! We Americans must all sing our individual songs of opposites, in our own melodies, refrain from bitterness or anger when the din of noise drowns us out, and resume singing...until we are safe. And we all are truely free.

polyamnesty

quote:

An elected government reflets where the nation is spiritually.

IF the elected will listen and represent the mainstream which they too often are not.

quote:

The Catholic Church, like any religion, has a basic dogma, a basic belief struture that is taught.

You make this statement as if you know what Catholicism really teaches.

What is the basic belief structure and source of the dogmas and doctrines of humanism - the so-called 'inconvenient truths' of the "humanistic religion", hhhmmmm, Poly?

Can't you see that the religion of humanism wants Christianity annihilated from the roots of American documents and foundations of what has made this country great? Do you propose we go the way of European Union's declarations?

quote:

Hitler would have delighted in the Patriot Act. Bush's Executive Orders are similar to Hitler's first decrees. Hitler's rise to power was aided by conservative Christians and industrialists.

dont forget about the military commissions act, which suspended hapeas corpus.

ibjoy

quote:

WE THE PEOPLE need to band together and get rid of these criminals in Washington DC and take our country back.

Yes, it currently has the lowest approval rating in the history of the Congress. They're wrapped in law suits, threats, and investigations and no time to listen to the desires of the people.

I notice you titled the thread, "civil liberties". Is that because you feared calling it "American" civil liberties?

quote:

Originally posted by GG:
polyamnesty

quote:

An elected government reflets where the nation is spiritually.

IF the elected will listen and represent the mainstream which they too often are not.

quote:

The Catholic Church, like any religion, has a basic dogma, a basic belief struture that is taught.

You make this statement as if you know what Catholicism really teaches.

What is the basic belief structure and source of the dogmas and doctrines of humanism - the so-called 'inconvenient truths' of the "humanistic religion", hhhmmmm, Poly?

Can't you see that the religion of humanism wants Christianity annihilated from the roots of American documents and foundations of what has made this country great? Do you propose we go the way of European Union's declarations?

Actually GG, read the words of Christ if you want the basics of what the church teaches. Or just listen at Sunday Mass. The gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are read at every Mass.

Christ put people first, not nations. He put the poor first, not the rich. Sounds like a bit of humanism, doesn't it? People before governments. People before wars. People before greed and corruption. Sounds to me like He would totally oppose this wing-nut in the White House.

He said "tend the sick". Europeans have set up their governments to do that...a bit of humanism commanded by Christ. It's a job too big for any individual, any church, any organization to handle. Amazing that it takes a secular state to adhere to Christ's commands when this so-called Christian one just can't seem to do that. Instead, we elect those who stand on platforms opposing Christ's commands.

There are a billion calling themselves Christian in this world...the only thing they can agree on is the name. 5 "new" Christian religions are started in the U.S. nearly every day. They share a name and little else.

You have the words of catholicism, but not the understanding of them. Christian churches all have the words of Christ...and most preaching them have no understanding of them. They preach hate, not love... war, not peace...greed, not compassion. That is the inconvenient truth of "christianity" in America.

Retired Monk
"Ideology is a disease"

Polyamnesty

quote:

Sounds like a bit of humanism, doesn't it?

quote:

He said "tend the sick". Europeans have set up their governments to do that...a bit of humanism commanded by Christ.

quote:

Christ put people first, not nations.

Poly, could you kindly give a reference to where in the declaration of human rights it gives any reference to Beatitude Living or to any higher law inherent in each person?

If the EU is so benevolent, why are people standing more often by the coffin than by the crib?

If the EU is so humanitarian, why is it compulsory that nations legalize warring against the unborn?

If the EU is the great humanitarians, why is it ashamed of its nations' Christian heritage?

If the EU is "a bit of humanism commanded by Christ", your words not mine, why do we have a global map of shame? Why do European nations have the greatest population implotion in the world?

The Declaration of Human Rights worships at the feet of the UN, is a document that gives and takes away human rights without any acknowledgment of a Higher Law. How humanitarian is all this, poly? I've got allot of questions; do you have the answers?

Perhaps Europeans are ashamed of their christian heritage because they have a right to be, just as I'm ashamed of that heritage in the U.S.

If you find the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to be incompatible with Christianity, point out the clauses that are incompatible with what Christ taught. Ditto the International Covenent on Political, Social and Cultural Rights.

They tend to support the dignity and personhood of the individual...just as in Matthew 25.

Retired Monk
"Ideology is a disease"

poly - I think it is #28 - the very last declaration. There is the root of the law and it is direct contradiction to natural/eternal/moral law taught by Christ.

If you are ashamed of our nation, than work to change what causes the shame. I'm ashamed of our current Congress. They do little to represent Beatitude Living.

Polyamnesty - The Organization of the United Nations turned 60 years old at the end of June 2005. The administration of George W. Bush celebrates this in its own way: it denies payment of million dollars previously given to the UNFPA, the United Nations Population Fund.

Is the following realization of educrats indoctrinations OK with you, Polyamnesty?

There are more & more instances similar to the one in Andover (MA) High School where a high—school teacher openly advocates for Hamas, expresses anti—Semitism, and indoctrinates and pays his students to join him in his efforts. When this came to light, the Teachers' Union President praised the teacher and defended the propriety of the teacher's actions and beliefs. The President of the union commended the teacher as a 'courageous defender of human rights'.

Polyamnesty - Post Christian European culture is attempting the impossible - to avoid the fruits of its sins and to cling to the exaltation of the imperial autonomous self.

Post-Christan Europe thinks it can remove its roots of Christianity and the consequences of it impenitence.

Men have been replaced by the red brigade tactics These warmongers of women have in fact convinced men to not cherish fatherhood, natural and spiritual, and men have become feminized. I know this is absolutely strong unkind language. What's it going to take to convince men to take back their rightful place and be defenders of women and children? Real men do not harm women and children. Will we ever have a perfect society? No, of course not. Let that not give any person an excuse to not work according to capacity that which defends human dignity.

Women and children are dying because men are too proud to bow their heads and bend their knees. Men want respect? You got it, but only from that humble place will you be considered tall and be admired. Currently men are door mats to the feminist bastions. When is enough going to be enough! When will virtuous men take their rightful place?

So just which clause in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights flies in the face of Christianity? How many are compatible with it?

The International Covenant on Political, Social and Cultural Rights is almost identical to it. Why did the U.S. sign it only after striking every human right mentioned?

--------------
PREAMBLE
Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,

Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,

Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,

Whereas it is essential to promote the development of friendly relations between nations,

Whereas the peoples of the United Nations have in the Charter reaffirmed their faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person and in the equal rights of men and women and have determined to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,

Whereas Member States have pledged themselves to achieve, in co-operation with the United Nations, the promotion of universal respect for and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms,

Whereas a common understanding of these rights and freedoms is of the greatest importance for the full realization of this pledge,

Now, Therefore THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.

Article 1.
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 3.
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 4.
No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Article 5.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Article 6.
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

Article 7.
All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 8.
Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

Article 9.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Article 10.
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Article 11.
(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.

(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.

Article 12.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Article 13.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.

(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Article 14.
(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.

(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 15.
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.

(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

Article 16.
(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.

(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.

(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

Article 17.
(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.

(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Article 19.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Article 20.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.

(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.

Article 21.
(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.

(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.

(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

Article 22.
Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

Article 23.
(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.

(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.

(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

Article 24.
Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.

Article 25.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

Article 26.
(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.

(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.

(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.

Article 27.
(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.

(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.

Article 28.
Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.

Article 29.
(1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.

(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.

(3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 30.
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

Retired Monk
"Ideology is a disease"

polyamnesty

quote:

These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

There it is, poly. Does that declaration give you a warm fuzzy feeling? The document states that rights and freedoms are granted by the United Nations and not according to the nature of personHOOD, according to inherent/inalienable natural/moral/eternal/divine laws written upon each human heart.

There are other specifics within the declaration that point to the humanly contrived given laws. These laws will be given and will be taken away. It is a very cleverly designed spin of tokens tickling fancies of the non virtuous. I was shocked to discover that disgracefully, the NEA adopted this document over a year ago.

How many parents know that their children are being formed into global citizens in the public school system and no longer formed to be Americans or even know their American history? Actually the three R's take a back seat to "coercive indoctrination". But that's another subject.

quote:

Originally posted by GG:
polyamnesty

quote:

These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

There it is, poly. Does that declaration give you a warm fuzzy feeling? The document states that rights and freedoms are granted by the United Nations and not according to the nature of personHOOD, according to inherent/inalienable natural/moral/eternal/divine laws written upon each human heart.

The purpose and principles GG, is to try to prevent war and promote human understanding and give everyone the capacity to unfold to their maximum potential as a human being. Read the preamble.

Now if you think the right not to be sold slavery is a bad thing, deny that right.
If you think the right to an education is a bad thing, deny that right.
If you think the right to practice your religion is a bad thing, deny that right.
If you think people should be descriminated against regarding equal pay, deny that right not to be descriminated against.
If you think people shouldn't have rest or leisure time, deny that right.
If you think people shouldn't be allowed to choose their own spouse rather than having forced marriages, deny that right.
If you think people shouldn't have the right to a living standard that guarantees their ability to sustain life, deny that right.

Your country stuck those and more from the International Covenent on Political, Cultural and Social Rights before it would sign it.

I guess, at our roots, we still hold slavery dear to the heart. Can't even sign a treaty that prohibits it before removing the clause.

Retired Monk
"Ideology is a disease"

polyamnesty - When was the last election by the people to determine who are to be the officials to head the United Nations. I'm personally offended I was not able to cast my ballot. Doesn't bother you? Those who create UN laws are appointed not elected, yet they yield allot of power over nations. Oh, and BTW, the United Nations makes it mandatory that 3rd and 4th world countries accept coerced abortion and forced sterilization for food. Oh yes, the U.N. protections do not extend to any Christian nation over taken by non-christians committing genocide.

quote:

Originally posted by GG:
polyamnesty - When was the last election by the people to determine who are to be the officials to head the United Nations. I'm personally offended I was not able to cast my ballot. Doesn't bother you? Those who create UN laws are appointed not elected, yet they yield allot of power over nations. Oh, and BTW, the United Nations makes it mandatory that 3rd and 4th world countries accept coerced abortion and forced sterilization for food. Oh yes, the U.N. protections do not extend to any Christian nation over taken by non-christians committing genocide.

And what has this to do with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights or the Internatioinal Covenent on Political, Social and Economic Rights.

Freedom of religion is listed in article 18. The U.S. also struck down this right before signing the International Covenent.

Do you still deny the right not to be sold into slavery? Do you deny the right not to be forced into a marriage? Do you agree that the U.S. is correct in striking clauses against slavery, etc.? Rather than answering my question, you come back with something that has nothing to do with the Declaration.

Do you vote for the President's Security Council? They decide life/death matters everyday.

The U.S. has veto power in the U.N. Our U.N. ambassador receives instructions from whomever you elect as President of the United States.

BTW, forced abortions are allowed in the United States Marianna Islands. I suggest you take this up with the Republican led Congressional delegation who went there and approved of it. Gave the governor their blessing to continue the practice.

Retired Monk
"Ideology is a disease"

A question for esteemed, long-time blog-adder, PolyCarp about my family('s) business?
Well, it's algebra. Is the equation I use, good or bad economics? And is the solution to my problem thus far, sustainable? Here's the equation for you, and your responses will always become welcome: X= the hypothetical number of citizens of America, right now f(X ) describes the overall impression we progressives, perceive of our rights since The Declaration of Independence, and accorded by the Constitution
My operating principle-the 'curve' is flat, horizontal. X is dynamic-or changing, and f(X) is based upon a few constants
Specifically, my friend(s), which drives this function? Is it X, or the constants involved (which may be imagined as the 'pillars of democracy.'
My solution is to INVALIDATE by reason, my instincts, or desire to see the scary 'curve' rise, on the basis that history is a pendulum, and what was isn't, what will be wasn't, and what is won't be.
p.s. my brother-in-law is a Harvard grad, practicing and teaching Buddhism, somewhere...

1 or 2 GGump? 1 or 2? What, do you think just because you avoid the thread that you can just ramble on as thought nothing has happened.

Why can't you tell us whether you would save your 2 g-kids or 10,000 frozen "babies?"

Sorry for intruding on this thread with this same old boring question but GGump has really got to learn that she can't just vomit this same old garbage and never accept responsibility for it.

Answer the f-ing question Ggump.

Mr. Jaded AJ!

quote:

Why can't you tell us whether you would save your 2 g-kids or 10,000 frozen "babies?"

OH ye of little faith. It is because of allot of compassion and allot of that I continually respond with the only ONE possible answer to your question - BOTH must be saved.

More on why later.

polyamnesty

quote:

Freedom of religion is listed in article 18. The U.S. also struck down this right before signing the International Covenent.

And this is (one of many) of its application of it in our world currently:

NHS staff told to eat away from desks for Ramadan

HOSPITAL staff in the Lothians have been told not to eat at their desks to avoid offending Muslim colleagues during Ramadan.

NHS Lothian has advised doctors and other health workers not to have working lunches during the 30-day fast, which begins next month.

The health service's Equality and Diversity Officer sent an e-mail to all senior managers, giving guidance on religious tolerance.

This includes ensuring Muslim staff are given breaks to pray, and time off to celebrate Eid at the end of Ramadan.

It is understood they also advised hospital managers to move food trolleys away from areas where Muslims work.

An NHS spokesman said he could not confirm what was in the e-mail.

Jim McCaffery, director of acute services and workforce at NHS Lothian, said: "This e-mail was circulated to a number of senior managers as we continue to promote cultural awareness in our organisation."

But the move has angered many doctors and politicians, who say it is taking religious tolerance too far.

Bill Aitken, Scottish Conservative justice spokesman, was reported as saying: "Frankly, this advice, well meaning as it may be, is total nonsense.

"This is the sort of thing that can stir up resentments rather than result in good relations."

This article: http://news.scotsman.com/edinburgh.cfm?id=1275192007

___________
Is this freedom of religion for you, poly? Sounds like shar'ia spreading to me.

polyamnest

quote:

And what has this to do with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights or the Internatioinal Covenent on Political, Social and Economic Rights.

Because, poly, Article 29:3

"These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations."

The Declaration is a humanistic contrived dangerous form of dictatorship. Europeans want to be coddled from birth to grave, and the document appears to do that very thing. It appears that they lack the will to survive with population implosion. It has blinded them to the grasp of the obvious - their nations are literally disappearing from lack of people.

Thanks A.J. ...no intrusion. This GG personae calls upon herself as THE example, when she is putting together a speech on all of us. She lacks intellectual strength-but the root of this is that her own life doesn't make sense to her.
My argument, and how I manage my family's business, inadequately at present, is that all of us are groping for some sense, some consistency, and finally some meaning in our lives.
Good job A.J.! Did anyone ever mention that your emotional strength, sustains ourselves, our fight, our lives here on these blog strains?? Can you live with the fact that you are fueling the fires which 'lick' you when GG 'friends' give her 'fuel'? Sure.
I expect a 'whats you mean', and 'it dont make sense' next, but I'll wait, for you, for other patriotic citizens, and on occaission I'll have a question for the most thoughtful among us...
Again, thanks....talk to you soon!!