“As long as there are slaughterhouses, there will be battlefields as well.” (Leo Tolstoi)
We are deeply concerned about the welfare of animals, whether for laboratory research, mass farming or forced suffering in other ways. We consider animals as our fellow-beings deserving our respect - this is why all Salem villages are vegetarian.
In many Salem institutions there are horses and many other animals as children develop sympathy towards animals by learning how to care for them and to love them.
(Taken from the Salem website)
Dear Thom,
I'm a bit confused as to why you, a pupil of Herr Mueller's, can allow certain pictures of shot and killed ducks and fish to be posted in this section of your website:
(I can't help but recall the pond with the fish that Herr Mueller saved.)
It is not up to me to pass judgment, therefore I won't resort to judging either you or the posters of these pictures. However, I would like to know why this is allowed. I cannot find anything in the Terms of Service regarding animal abuse, and have not heard anything back (or seen any actions taken) after having reported one particular post.
Can you please enlighten me?
Respectfully, A Salem-sister
"We have learned how to fly like the birds, to swim like the fish, yet we have forgotten how to live like brothers... " ~ Martin Luther King
Posts: 140 | Location: Universe | Registered: 07 January 2007
I randomly opened my copy of The Prophet's Way and this was what I read: (From chapter: 'Uganda')
"As you can imagine, this experience was powerful evidence to me that Herr Mueller was right when he predicted an accelerating confluence of events and influences with disastrous consequences. But what to do in the face of such a situation? Do what's right: acts of mercy, without regard for the seemingly overwhelming odds. The odds only matter if you're playing the odds. The magnitude of the problem only matters if you'll only accept a "well-engineered" response. What's right is a different matter."
Even in the face of injustice of any kind, whether it's towards Uganda, animals, the environment or politics, the outcomes are changeable. It's not like one action will automatically lead to a certain consequence or re-action. That's how the binary setup of this world we've created works, imo. And to have people posting pictures and bragging about having shot animals will work in various ways, such as a bigger counter-balance in the form of people who understand what Herr Mueller meant when he said (and continues to show) that animals are our fellow-beings that deserve our respect. And the importance of that for places such as this website.
It's important to this world to have this counter-balance, that's why we're still clinging on to it.
Animal rights might seem like a minor subject, next to US politics and abortion, which are the favorite topics of this site. But in truth, it fits right in there with those topics, especially when one understands Salem-principles. In my opinion, I asked a polite question, without implying that anyone has lost it. I am still hoping on a response, and if it comes, I hope it won't be a "well-engineered" one...
Hope, I believe, is more powerful than overwhelming odds. And well-engineered responses
Early shabat shalom to you
Posts: 140 | Location: Universe | Registered: 07 January 2007
Implicit in the violence against animals is the inherent violence in its many forms embedded in our still patriarchal at heart medieval European based society; included is all sorts of racism, groupisms, sexism, anti environmentalism, and so forth, and involved in that is the devaluing of many of our more important inter-connective features such as empathy (assigned to the feminine), affect (assigned to the feminine) and attention to all the less linearly rational forms of our awareness (assigned to feminine, then race or groups, like artists).
I don't quite understand why we are getting this flood of discussions about guns, the joys of owning them, the skills of using them, and the descriptions of the joy some seem to get at another's (a woman's of course) reactions to something like witnessing of their murdering of a crow about to crap on the windshield of their precious pickup truck. But it does create an atmosphere, and I've noticed even normally peaceful posters responding with some momentary hostility -- but fortunately then regain their balance, a good sign.
I fish a little. I don't hunt but I eat meat. I guess I'm more comfortable having someone else do the killing for me. After participating on the Nugent board a long time ago, I came to realize that people who hunt and don't support factory farming are less hypocritical than those who preach animal rights and eat the occasional hamburger or chicken sandwich.
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
Posts: 8264 | Location: Fl | Registered: 05 July 2001
Originally posted by Sawdust: I fish a little. I don't hunt but I eat meat. I guess I'm more comfortable having someone else do the killing for me. After participating on the Nugent board a long time ago, I came to realize that people who hunt and don't support factory farming are less hypocritical than those who preach animal rights and eat the occasional hamburger or chicken sandwich.
Personal hypocrisy is the issue, all right. But the question arises around whether a recognition of hypocrisy has even occurred by the practitioners. To understand that, one needs to look closer at the structure of any given society. Ariel23 has raised that question regarding Thom and what he is willing to tolerate here on this board.
I came to realize that people who hunt and don't support factory farming are less hypocritical than those who preach animal rights and eat the occasional hamburger or chicken sandwich.
Mostly I agree with that statement, but I think it depends on where they are getting their meat. There is still some old fashioned animal husbandry on family farms, which is fast disappearing as factory farms become the norm. I heard on the radio, I think on Thom's show the other day, that most American's food travels over 1000 miles to market. In Italy, it's 24 miles to market.
------------------------------------ We cannot control the evil tongues of others; but a good life enables us to disregard them.
Posts: 1855 | Location: here and now | Registered: 22 September 2005
I came to realize that people who hunt and don't support factory farming are less hypocritical than those who preach animal rights and eat the occasional hamburger or chicken sandwich.
Mostly I agree with that statement, but I think it depends on where they are getting their meat. There is still some old fashioned animal husbandry on family farms, which is fast disappearing as factory farms become the norm. I heard on the radio, I think on Thom's show the other day, that most American's food travels over 1000 miles to market. In Italy, it's 24 miles to market.
It was on Tuesday the 12th's show, and Thom stated the average distance store-bought food travels is 1500 miles. He had Earl Blumenauer (D-OR-3) on the show, who is heading up the Food and Farm Bill of Rights efforts (website). Congressman Blumenauer stated that Thom was close, that the average food mile is 1450.
Ariel23 has raised that question regarding Thom and what he is willing to tolerate here on this board.
There is no such thing as free speech on a message board. It isn't my place to suggest what he should tolerate. The only question is whether or not I participate. As long as I've been here and as much termoil as the board has gone through, I guess I can personally tolerate a lot.
I am not easily offended but I am easily ammused.
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
Posts: 8264 | Location: Fl | Registered: 05 July 2001
Food miles are the distance food has travelled from its point of origin to you. In America, retail experts calculate that the average distance for any one item of food is around 1,100 miles. The contents of the average European shopping trolley travel 2,200 miles. —Joanna Blythman, "Eat local and sever the food chains," The Independent, October 23, 1993
Lisa, you must realize that a lot of that distance will matter about location and regulations. Living in Alaska, showed me that if Alaska had to depend on its own food sources, they would all starve.
Posts: 7939 | Location: Santa Barbara | Registered: 19 July 2005
Ariel23 has raised that question regarding Thom and what he is willing to tolerate here on this board.
There is no such thing as free speech on a message board. It isn't my place to suggest what he should tolerate. The only question is whether or not I participate. As long as I've been here and as much termoil as the board has gone through, I guess I can personally tolerate a lot.
I am not easily offended but I am easily ammused.
Maybe you'll have to ask Ariel23 why she's raised the question. Otherwise I'm not quite sure what you are addressing. I don't see that asking a question about whether someone is acting hypocritically is the same as suggesting what should be tolerated. Perhaps if Thom explained his position her question would be answered.
Maybe you'll have to ask Ariel23 why she's raised the question. Otherwise I'm not quite sure what you are addressing. I don't see that asking a question about whether someone is acting hypocritically is the same as suggesting what should be tolerated. Perhaps if Thom explained his position her question would be answered.
I asked the question because it seemed so very contradictional to the person that I learned Thom to be through his books about the environment and about Herr Mueller to have these kinds of photos on a corporate website intended to enhance his career.
quote:
The only question is whether or not I participate.
That's very true, Sawdust. This was part of why I asked the question. I didn't mean to suggest what he should or should not tolerate or allow, but I was trying to understand his motivation for having those photos on and on the same time be part of what Salem entails. It's not judgment, nor am I saying that the two can't go together. I myself eat meat, on occasion, especially now that I am pregnant. And I too find it difficult sometimes to combine that in my mind with the teachings and beliefs of Salem. I found a way in my heart, and I was just wondering about Thom, and how he did this in relation to these pictures.
Basically, if his explanation (if it even comes) is a 'well-engineered' response that I can't understand or with which I disagree, I will decide whether or not to continue to participate here. I cannot change anyone's thoughts, but I can choose to be subjected to it or not.
quote:
I don't quite understand why we are getting this flood of discussions about guns, the joys of owning them, the skills of using them, and the descriptions of the joy some seem to get at another's (a woman's of course) reactions to something like witnessing of their murdering of a crow about to crap on the windshield of their precious pickup truck.
Maybe it comes from the cavemen: After all, the hunters were the ones that were held in high esteem by the women. I'm sure in some ways, and with some women, they still are.
Posts: 140 | Location: Universe | Registered: 07 January 2007
Maybe it comes from the cavemen: After all, the hunters were the ones that were held in high esteem by the women. I'm sure in some ways, and with some women, they still are.
Lol, well, there has been some evidence that in some hunter gathering groups, women may have provided the bulk of the food through gathering. There is also evidence that both hunted, and both gathered. So, take your stereotype, none of us were there 30,000 years ago to actually witness how they did things.
A motherbear will kill in order to feed her babies. Gorillas attack each other and others whom they feel threatened by. Animals have a killer instinct and strive to survive. In that regard, humankind is no different, nor more violent, in my opinion. I'm not sure how assigned 'feminine' qualities have to do with this basic sense of survival that life has?
Posts: 140 | Location: Universe | Registered: 07 January 2007
A motherbear will kill in order to feed her babies. Gorillas attack each other and others whom they feel threatened by. Animals have a killer instinct and strive to survive. In that regard, humankind is no different, nor more violent, in my opinion. I'm not sure how assigned 'feminine' qualities have to do with this basic sense of survival that life has?
Not the same order of comparison. Feminine in the sense I am referring to it is a gender issue that has a historical cultural evolution, survival is more basic than that.
First I'd recognize that gender and sex are not precise overlaps. Like the following Venn diagram, imagine "A" is sex and "B" is gender:
Female/male is the biology of sex, feminine/masculine is the gender meanings assigned to sex. For instance, one may refer to a male as "effeminate" and that is talking in terms of gender. Gender is a cultural assignment of meanings. Cross cultural studies have demonstrated a range of meanings that don't all fall cleanly into, say, Western categorical assignments. So you can get another Venn diagram that has all cultural meanings for masculine and all cultural meanings for feminine and you will undoubtedly have some more overlap between genders.
It does make sense, but what I'm struggling with is sense vs. sensibility.
Basically, I have looked at it from another side: Gender has a cultural evolution, but on the other hand it is also basic, because the qualities you described are tied to the emotional plane. Emotions are basic.
Survival is a basic, but in a way it's also culturally evolved. When in a traumatic situation, we tend to flee or fight. Those are emotional reflexes. But now our evolved brain is able to flee through dissociation. The early cavemen couldn't do that, they would probably flee physically.
And we also fight differently, which depends on our historical and cultural evolution.
I know it's a different angle from what you're suggesting. I hope I'm not boring you with too much one-sided analysis.
Posts: 140 | Location: Universe | Registered: 07 January 2007
Originally posted by ariel23: It does make sense, but what I'm struggling with is sense vs. sensibility.
Basically, I have looked at it from another side: Gender has a cultural evolution, but on the other hand it is also basic, because the qualities you described are tied to the emotional plane. Emotions are basic.
Survival is a basic, but in a way it's also culturally evolved. When in a traumatic situation, we tend to flee or fight. Those are emotional reflexes. But now our evolved brain is able to flee through dissociation. The early cavemen couldn't do that, they would probably flee physically.
And we also fight differently, which depends on our historical and cultural evolution.
I know it's a different angle from what you're suggesting. I hope I'm not boring you with too much one-sided analysis.
I don't see a different angle really. If you look at the Venn diagram idea, you'll see that there's the overlap of what is sex and what is gender. That accounts for what's also basic in gender, as you noted. In males and females physically there is also a lot of overlap that basic physical plane.
It's very difficult to say what our ancestors of 30,000 to 40,000 years did psychologically -- the anatomically modern humans, according to the fossil record. Theoretically physical anthropologist postulate that an anatomically modern human then could be brought into modern society as an infant and would learn to be well within the range of a modern human today. The implication is that the hardwiring that we have is pretty much the same, and that what we are able to create with our abstractly created sense of fear, along with the psychological patterns of defense you are talking about, would be just as easy for them to do.
As you noted, fighting is learned.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: /rén,
Lisa, you must realize that a lot of that distance will matter about location and regulations. Living in Alaska, showed me that if Alaska had to depend on its own food sources, they would all starve.
Hmm, tell that to the Inuit of the last several thousand years!
Originally posted by Ronald Rutherford: Lisa, you must realize that a lot of that distance will matter about location and regulations. Living in Alaska, showed me that if Alaska had to depend on its own food sources, they would all starve.
Hmm, tell that to the Inuit of the last several thousand years!
Yes, I realize that argument. First you have to look at it with an eye toward regulations. They have tried to increase the Moose population in some locations but Friends of Animals are trying to block those efforts.
Would you consider that a "good American diet"? As was asked of others on this board: are you willing to give up your bananas, coffee, etc?
But you must realize that now the population is much larger than before the settlers. Do you honestly want those people to live like the Intuits? And thus to possibly destroy the biggest park in the world (Alaska)?
Posts: 7939 | Location: Santa Barbara | Registered: 19 July 2005
Originally posted by Sawdust: I fish a little. I don't hunt but I eat meat. I guess I'm more comfortable having someone else do the killing for me. After participating on the Nugent board a long time ago, I came to realize that people who hunt and don't support factory farming are less hypocritical than those who preach animal rights and eat the occasional hamburger or chicken sandwich.
I tend to take a view closer to that of many Native Americans: Everything lives off the life of another, plant or animal. Taking life for no purpose other than this or to protect one's own species seems rather obscene to me. If you kill it, eat it. If someone kills a chicken for me, or I pick a tomato...I'll eat it. Same thing to me.
Other than this, everything has a right to life.
I'd prefer my own remains to feed other living things as quickly as possible rather than being placed in a concrete vault somewhere. A vault too seems obscene to me. A witholding of something of use to other life that is no longer of any use to myself.
Retired Monk "Ideology is a disease"
Posts: 3412 | Location: denver co | Registered: 17 April 2007
I fully agree with that. Whenever I eat meat or fish, I say a prayer for the animal that gave its life for my dinner. Also, when one chooses organically grown foods (which I do) then the emotions of fear and pain aren't tied to the meat in the way they are with animals that are slaughtered in, yes, beastly ways. This is how I balance this in my life. I have episodes where I eat strictly vegetarian (mostly in the summer) and in the winter when I need more energy I do eat meat.
I am curious about how Native Americans think about this. Maybe Buteos knows this too.
Posts: 140 | Location: Universe | Registered: 07 January 2007
Polycarp & Ariel, I mostly agree with you two. I try to eat only organic, try to eat local, and do appreciate the soil and toil sacrifices made just to feed my gullet. I don't hunt (despite a job history in related work), don't support wanton killing just for sport. I don't really equate a tomato and a chicken, or an apple and a rabbit. Well, it's not a matter of "equating"; they're different but all part of the web of life. I thank the land for providing me plants to eat, and I respect the souls of the animals who's lives we take.
Here's one thing I (we all) should start doing: living the 100 mile rule. Eat and buy only what's produced within 100 miles of you. Tough to do right now in most cases, but a noble goal.
But Ron, you make a good point. As I mentioned, yes, it's demonstrably possible for a society to live in Alaska via native foodstuffs and native materials only, as have the Inuit. But it's not an honest comparison, because there are so many more people there now, mostly concentrated in the few cities. Without having any numbers to back it up, I assume that the current Alaskan population is too large to subsist like the Inuit. Most don't know how, it's not part of their culture, and the available resources there can't sustain the current (and should I assume growing?) population.
Anyway, to Ariel's original question....I guess it's not hypocritical because there's a lot of other content on these boards that Thom does not support. Conservatives, libertarians, objectivists, etc are all on here and post. While they mostly use words, they still make statements contrary to Thom's beliefs and to the tenet's of the Salems. I don't think the censor hand should smite easily, so the hunting pics can stay. If someone goes way beyond the line into the obscene and vulgar that's different maybe (and I can already here the arguments about that topic!).
So instead of censoring those pics, respond to posts of any kind with which you don't agree and make your case for changing those folks' minds.
But you must realize that now the population is much larger than before the settlers. Do you honestly want those people to live like the Intuits? And thus to possibly destroy the biggest park in the world (Alaska)?
You see it as a "park." Does that mean you think you are something seperate from this park? Where, in your opinion, is the boundary between you, the organism, and that which sustains you? Are indigenous cultures aware of some reality that is being overlooked or ignored?
"The moon that I love clears a path through the pines And guides a stream right to the bamboo gate."Poems by Zen Master Hsu Yun: Series I
Posts: 795 | Location: western slope, northern sierra | Registered: 18 April 2003
But you must realize that now the population is much larger than before the settlers. Do you honestly want those people to live like the Intuits? And thus to possibly destroy the biggest park in the world (Alaska)?
You see it as a "park." Does that mean you think you are something seperate from this park? Where, in your opinion, is the boundary between you, the organism, and that which sustains you? Are indigenous cultures aware of some reality that is being overlooked or ignored?
Yes and no. To think people are going to willingly go back to the hunter/gatherer is an impossibility. Even the Intuit, while still not having all the conveniences of most of the USA, they are very happy in their own post-contact environment.
Not sure what you mean?
Could be, but so unlikely that their post-contact world is very similar than mine. Including most tribes/Native Corporations are supportive of exploration drilling in ANWR.
But what do you think of Alaskans actually able to kill and hunt to support the population?
Posts: 7939 | Location: Santa Barbara | Registered: 19 July 2005
I can never understand how someone can equate words on a computer (nothing more than a few bits that travel on the superhighway) with violence, death, destruction, and hostility.
Unless you actually think in terms of violence you will not imagine such things.
Has anyone seen S21?
Posts: 7939 | Location: Santa Barbara | Registered: 19 July 2005
Anyway, to Ariel's original question....I guess it's not hypocritical because there's a lot of other content on these boards that Thom does not support. Conservatives, libertarians, objectivists, etc are all on here and post. While they mostly use words, they still make statements contrary to Thom's beliefs and to the tenet's of the Salems. I don't think the censor hand should smite easily, so the hunting pics can stay. If someone goes way beyond the line into the obscene and vulgar that's different maybe (and I can already here the arguments about that topic!).
Once again, I wasn't implying that the posts should disappear or be censored. AT ALL. I haven't used the word 'hypocritical' in any way, shape or form in this thread, related to this topic as an expression and/or opinion about either Thom, the posters and/or their pictures. I do not judge hunters, in fact, my brother in law is a professional registered and licensed hunter. I couldn't do what they do, yet I benefit from what they do by eating what they shoot (as long as it's organic). If anything, if you wish to think this, this makes me the hypocrite.
As for opposite politics views to Thom's posting here: I can imagine why this board allows all political voices (although, as I've witnessed, not all of them) to be heard. To me personally, politics are a bottomless well. And the reason why it lacks a bottom is because the world keeps on missing a basic skill which is essential for any (in)significant problem we're facing today: Oneness. People who engage in political warfare and our leaders who, on our behalfs, allow political warfare to become global warfare, do not understand this concept, otherwise they would not and could not do what they are doing.
Plants and animals are our fellow-beings. They might have a different levels of awareness, but this does not make one life form less than the other. Only unevolved souls would proclaim themselves to have a higher rank in the pecking order. Life forms feed (of off) each other. It always has, it's the circle of life. It's natural. But in order to preserve this planet, and in order to preserve life (whether it's our life or that of another species) you need respect.
I don't agree with every human I encounter. But I do respect them as human beings carried by our collective oneness. Despite of what their actions may be. The same goes for animals and plants. There are violent animals, there are poisonous insects and plants. When faced with them, we take action due to our survival instinct. I may not understand the joy of shooting a row of ducks and show them off. But it is not up to me to judge the person who does. Because this person is not separate from me, and his/her actions are not outside of me. Nor are mine to his/hers. This may very well be a circle of life within the circle of life. It's a counter balance in order to preserve duality.
Without duality, there cannot be transcendence, and there cannot be multidimensional oneness. Thom Hartmann feeds the conservatives, and they feed him. The hunters feed me, and I feed them. spiritually as well as literally as well as on this forum.
We do this, unfortunately, without being fully aware of it. At Salem, people [i[ are [/i] aware of this. And it creates a world within a world that is very inspirational and brings hope for the future. And hopes of spiritual tranformation of human behavior...
Posts: 140 | Location: Universe | Registered: 07 January 2007
I spent most of my childhood in a small community in northern Michigan. Place called Petoskey. Hunting, fishing, very normal. Schools would close down during hunting season to get food. I'd spend weeks helping my native friends harvest the salmon and whitefish and tend the smoke houses for a winters supply of fish. Bigtime fun! I stand against 'sport or trophy' hunting and fishing. The result is imbalance. (personally I do not hunt)
Native indigenous cultures had elaborate treaties between tribes that went on for thousands of years that kept the balance. Unlike the 'white boys' of today, and I use that phrase to describe a culture, Indians had a deep spiritual relationship with the salmon and buffalo
quote:
Tom McHugh describes what happened to a hunter who violated these rules: "After flogging him, marshalls confiscated or killed his dogs and horses, cut his lodge into pieces, burned his tipi poles, broke his bow or gun, took his meat supplies, and ripped his hides reducing him to total beggary." As Richard Manning comments on these rules: "The bufflo culture depended upon cooperation and the rules were meant to ensure it".....
Sometimes it's necessary to be responsible and take action to protect the resources that sustain "us" against those who exploit the commons. 'psychological evolution' is powerless without actions. 'Visualize World Peace' at this point in the game, has become nothing more than 'New Age' prayer. Pacifists hardly ever use this Gandhi quote:
quote:
I have been repeating over and over again that he who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or thier honour by nonviolently facing death may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden. He has no business to be the head of a family. He mist either hide himself, or must rest content to live forever in helplessness and be prepared to crawl like a worm at the bidding of a bully
So anyway ariel, I say let 'em post whatever. Along the thoughts of duality....well as you pointed out.... to be and not to be arise mutually only problematic when one is stuck on one side or the other...
"The moon that I love clears a path through the pines And guides a stream right to the bamboo gate."Poems by Zen Master Hsu Yun: Series I
Posts: 795 | Location: western slope, northern sierra | Registered: 18 April 2003
Ariel, didn't mean to necessarily imply that you were talking about hypocrisy, but you did ask why those pics are "allowed", in consideration of Thom's association with the Salem way and Herr Mueller. If the pics would be not allowed then that would be a form of censorship to some degree.
Bamboo, I spent a good chuck of my childhood in Michigan. Lived in lower but have been up to Petoskey, Gaylord, Interlochen, Mackinac, Sault Ste Marie, etc. Love Michigan. I know what you mean about schools and hunting season....hunting is such a part of Michigander culture. I appreciate the subsistance hunting, but like you not sport/trophy hunting.
I lived in southern Africa for a time, and learned about the legacy of big game hunting. It's a terrible scar on human existence, because of being a bigger scar on animal populations.
Given the photos are still up it seems that women have a voice on this site, i.e., they are not silenced. They just are not taken too seriously. I guess another demonstration of a male power structure.
In case you've not figured it out yet, another disguised identity of the Administrator playing her silly little games.
Posts: 1162 | Location: Boulder Creek Watershed | Registered: 14 February 2004
If the pics would be not allowed then that would be a form of censorship to some degree.
The way I see it, this site reflects back on Thom, and it is set up in a corporate way to enhance his career. If he doesn't mind pictures of shot animals and it doesn't bother his involvement with Salem, then that's great for him. I asked a question. I did not intend to push any censorship. Asking a question, as well as making an observation, is psychologically different from pushing an opinion, making a judgment or suggesting censorship, the word 'allow' in this regard, is used in this context.
Buteos,
quote:
Given the photos are still up it seems that women have a voice on this site, i.e., they are not silenced. They just are not taken too seriously. I guess another demonstration of a male power structure.
From what I'm observing (and G-d knows I could be wrong, and very likely am), this site is not oozing much emotional administrational/moderatorial devotion, which is a choice they are 'allowed' to make with their property.
I wonder if it could be true, that because I am a woman, my question is not taken too seriously. I don't think any question is taken too seriously. And since I don't take myself too seriously either, this is not a problem to me. Actually, I prefer it that way
The way I figure it, I've gotten my answer:
1. My alert has not been responded to, nor any actions have been taken, as far as I can see. This means my alert was not considered justified.
2. I started this thread raising a question to Thom, which he, nor any of his staff, has been willing to address. This means they are not interested in answering questions from me, in this case, which is their good right. After all, I am hardly one to be considered. I was just addressing some curiosity on my part. No harm done, no response required.
3. I saw in one of the linked threads that a moderator posted on it, incouraging someone to post more pictures of fish. This tells me that the staff would actually have more pics of killed animals up. Which reflects back on Thom, which tells me what I already knew, that he has found a way to balance this with Salem's ideology. I already knew that, I was just curious as to how he balanced it.
Maybe by not addressing it? (Kidding). Anyway. I wish them all the best. They're obviously very busy people.
And I've learned a while ago that the only answer to my questions are within myself, not anyone else...
Posts: 140 | Location: Universe | Registered: 07 January 2007
This the way I see it. Do a little experiment. Take a clear glass of water, swish it around in your mouth and spit it back in the glass. Look at it and think about wether or not you'd drink it.
There are some things that we cause to happen that some people are uncomfortable looking at. I'll eat an occasional hamburger but don't want to see pictures of a slaughter house. Mike posed with a dead fish. What if he cooked it for a homeless guy?
I think this thread is about whether people are squeamish.
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
Posts: 8264 | Location: Fl | Registered: 05 July 2001
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
Posts: 8264 | Location: Fl | Registered: 05 July 2001
Sorry I missed all of the deep soul searching while I was in Cabo killing a bunch of fish.
Interesting comments. I have in laws who think the same way, animal rights etc... They always enjoy eating what I shoot or catch. Then they'll tell me abount how killing animals is baaad. Rather than engage the hypocracy, I'll usually just say "would you like seconds?"
I am curious about this comment made about animal abuse though.
"I would like to know why this is allowed. I cannot find anything in the Terms of Service regarding animal abuse,"
What animal was ever abused? Any and all game animals or fish that I procure are eaten. 100%. Pests are disposed of. I like meat. Fresh is best. Some are mounted as I enjoy seeing them. It's a personal taste thing. My sister doesn't like animal parts adorning her walls, I do.
I have no idea what Thoms views are on hunting and fishing. If he doesn't want me to post game pictures, I won't. If you don't like them, don't look and don't start additional threads with links to them.
I know this topic gets a rise out of a couple of you, but dancing around the hypocricy issue is kind of phony dont you think?
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Slabmaster,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user."
Theodore Roosevelt, 1913
Posts: 2404 | Location: Redmond WA | Registered: 04 September 2006
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
Posts: 8264 | Location: Fl | Registered: 05 July 2001
But you must realize that now the population is much larger than before the settlers. Do you honestly want those people to live like the Intuits? And thus to possibly destroy the biggest park in the world (Alaska)?
You see it as a "park." Does that mean you think you are something seperate from this park? Where, in your opinion, is the boundary between you, the organism, and that which sustains you? Are indigenous cultures aware of some reality that is being overlooked or ignored?
If we can't get the concept that the entire planet is a "park", we''will continue doing what was done on a smaller scale on Easter Island.
"...the island has now been stripped of its native forest due to overpopulation and improper farming techniques.
"At first, Polynesian travelers from the Marquesas, or Society Islands, populated the island. These inhabitants carried with them rich religious and artistic cultures. As the population increased, the food chain broke, resulting in famines and even cannibalism. Those who survived were left to the mercies of slave traders from other lands and governmental domination by Peru and Chile. The onslaught also brought various devastating diseases."
Globally, it will take longer, and the result will be the same. Destroying that which sustains us is in the same moral stature as a baby destroying it's mother who provides it with milk. A baby can't do that. We can. We can destroy that which provides us with sustenance.
Those cultures that live with and within nature have survived for eons unless conquered from without. Those that didn't, conquered themselves.
Retired Monk "Ideology is a disease"
Posts: 3412 | Location: denver co | Registered: 17 April 2007
Originally posted by Sawdust: I take it the trip was good? I leave Wednessday.
Oh....lordy.
Never had so much fun. Fishing was great, perfect weather, good friends, a unique cultural experience. I won the side bet "tournement" and won the plaque for most fish caught. Bought some artwork and stuff from beach venders.
Lounging in the pool drinking Don Julio 1942 looking out at the Sea of Cortez at sunset is a tough life I would like to pursue more of.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user."
Theodore Roosevelt, 1913
Posts: 2404 | Location: Redmond WA | Registered: 04 September 2006
I don't quite understand why we are getting this flood of discussions about guns, the joys of owning them, the skills of using them, and the descriptions of the joy some seem to get at another's (a woman's of course) reactions to something like witnessing of their murdering of a crow about to crap on the windshield of their precious pickup truck.
I do.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user."
Theodore Roosevelt, 1913
Posts: 2404 | Location: Redmond WA | Registered: 04 September 2006
The assumption and remarks were made about eating animals killed. I stated that I eat any game animal that I shoot. I specify "game" animal as I am explaining this to people that believe the birds in the picture posted are ducks. (The geese in the picture would be offended) I don't mind that some can't distinguish between the two, but the typical anti hunting rehtorec of animal abuse rears its head when people don't know what they are talking about.
When I refer to disposing of pests, that is distinguishing that a pest is not a game animal that I would eat. Pests are evaluated on their value to me when I decide to dispose of them or not. Moles, rats, coyotes, certain racoons, starlings, crows, and a few other "pests" take a dirt nap if they disrupt my little sactuary.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user."
Theodore Roosevelt, 1913
Posts: 2404 | Location: Redmond WA | Registered: 04 September 2006
Thanks. I grew up with you. Different people, place and time, but still the same. In all honesty, can't say it's right, can't say it's wrong, personal/cultural thing I guess. For me personally, I mean, engageing in the destruction of life, is difficult. Unless it involves protecting ones I love, dear friends or family from harm. I have killed under those circumstances.
quote:
Pests are evaluated on their value to me when I decide to dispose of them or not. Moles, rats, coyotes, certain racoons, starlings, crows, and a few other "pests" take a dirt nap if they disrupt my little sactuary.
I think I understand why you do not really want to control your symptoms. Thanks.
"The moon that I love clears a path through the pines And guides a stream right to the bamboo gate."Poems by Zen Master Hsu Yun: Series I
Posts: 795 | Location: western slope, northern sierra | Registered: 18 April 2003
I don't quite understand why we are getting this flood of discussions about guns, the joys of owning them, the skills of using them, and the descriptions of the joy some seem to get at another's (a woman's of course) reactions to something like witnessing of their murdering of a crow about to crap on the windshield of their precious pickup truck.
I do.
quote:
I know this topic gets a rise out of a couple of you
I think you just told me one pretty good explanation for it.
I have a recollection of reading somewhere that the Bhudda suggested one could not be a butcher by profession and seek enlightenment. Seems there is a conflict between the two.
Some are destined to be butchers, until they aren't. Some are destined to eat what others butcher, unless they don't.
When I gave up fishing, other things more interesting filled the gap.
Fishing can be a joy. My grandmother taught me how to fish. She could outpace me anyday hiking up and down trout streams and locating the perfect spot.
There was perhaps more joy in being with grandma than actually "fishing". Perhaps that's why I gave it up when she could no longer fish. There was no longer any joy in it. I miss her to this day, but I don't miss the "fishing". I've found more rewarding things to do.
Retired Monk "Ideology is a disease"
Posts: 3412 | Location: denver co | Registered: 17 April 2007
Thanks. I grew up with you. Different people, place and time, but still the same. In all honesty, can't say it's right, can't say it's wrong, personal/cultural thing I guess. For me personally, I mean, engageing in the destruction of life, is difficult. Unless it involves protecting ones I love, dear friends or family from harm. I have killed under those circumstances.
To each his own. I won't ever judge you for your decisions re: pests. I met a lady that wanted our company to tear down and rebuild/remodel a house that sat on a choice piece of property. The wrecked house she had bought was full of rats, ferrel cats, flee's, and a couple of racoons. I told her that we would have to call an exterminator to rid the place of varmints. She wanted all of them gently captured and released into the wild several miles away. The idea of killing the flee's was "brutish" to her. I told her "more power to ya" and to let me know when she accomplishes a condition that is safe to work and live in. A year later, she still has varmints, no one in town will touch her job, and I'm not holding my breath. The kicker is that she uses animal parts daly with no qualms and her husband who provides for her little house restoration projects owns a high end steak house. Too funny.
There is a hage hypocricy in much of the animal rights dribble. It's ok to have animals and pests killed for you for food or convenience, but it is soooo socially unacceptable to actually do it yourself. Gimme a effen break. I do both, make no appoligies, and don't try to bullshit people about it.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user."
Theodore Roosevelt, 1913
Posts: 2404 | Location: Redmond WA | Registered: 04 September 2006
Originally posted by polycarp: I have a recollection of reading somewhere that the Bhudda suggested one could not be a butcher by profession and seek enlightenment. Seems there is a conflict between the two.
Some are destined to be butchers, until they aren't. Some are destined to eat what others butcher, unless they don't.
When I gave up fishing, other things more interesting filled the gap.
Fishing can be a joy. My grandmother taught me how to fish. She could outpace me anyday hiking up and down trout streams and locating the perfect spot.
There was perhaps more joy in being with grandma than actually "fishing". Perhaps that's why I gave it up when she could no longer fish. There was no longer any joy in it. I miss her to this day, but I don't miss the "fishing". I've found more rewarding things to do.
Retired Monk "Ideology is a disease"
I don't read a lick of bhudda and probably never will, but you have experienced the "why" most hunters/fishermen enjoy hunting and fishing. The meat is the icing on the cake. I have been skunked far far more than I have been successful, but the kill is only a small part of the thrill.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user."
Theodore Roosevelt, 1913
Posts: 2404 | Location: Redmond WA | Registered: 04 September 2006
Never did get a "thrill" out of it. Threw most of my fish back. Grandma kept hers, and never did insist I keep mine. She knew I preferred living things rather than dead ones....and let me be as I was.
Some grandmas, I suppose are like that. You don't have to earn their approval in anything. It's just there because you exist.
It's a really superior way to raise kids...and you still have to teach them the rules of society. They have to know them even if they don't agree with them.
Retired Monk "Ideology is a disease"
Posts: 3412 | Location: denver co | Registered: 17 April 2007
my sister and I with gra-ma in the woods, sitting on a log. She said "be very still and you will see something. Be very quiet and you will hear something." With-out ever mentioning the word, she taught us patience.
"The moon that I love clears a path through the pines And guides a stream right to the bamboo gate."Poems by Zen Master Hsu Yun: Series I
Posts: 795 | Location: western slope, northern sierra | Registered: 18 April 2003
Once.... , there was this butcher. He held the knife to the throat of this pig ready to cut his throat. The pig started laughing. The butcher said "pig, why are you laughing, dont you know I'm about to cut your throat?" the pig looked at the butcher and said, "for 449 lifetimes, I have been born and died, born and died, over and over again as an animal. Now this is my last death as an animal." The butcher said shut-up and again prepared to cut his throat, then the pig started crying. The butcher asked, "Pig, now why are you crying? Pig said "I cry for you, 500 lifetimes ago I was a butcher. _/\_
"The moon that I love clears a path through the pines And guides a stream right to the bamboo gate."Poems by Zen Master Hsu Yun: Series I
Posts: 795 | Location: western slope, northern sierra | Registered: 18 April 2003
Originally posted by polycarp: Never did get a "thrill" out of it. Threw most of my fish back. Grandma kept hers, and never did insist I keep mine. She knew I preferred living things rather than dead ones....and let me be as I was.
Some grandmas, I suppose are like that. You don't have to earn their approval in anything. It's just there because you exist.
It's a really superior way to raise kids...and you still have to teach them the rules of society. They have to know them even if they don't agree with them.
Retired Monk "Ideology is a disease"
I just returned from a fishing trip where we as a group released 3 out of 4 blue marlin, several rooster fish, and a striped marlin.
Catch and release is a very good way to fish if that is what you want to do. No one I know of ever looks down their nose at people who choose to do so or just want to take pictures of wildlife. I enjoy catching fish and eating them. To each his own.
How many hunters and fishermen ever judge non-hunters and fishermen?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user."
Theodore Roosevelt, 1913
Posts: 2404 | Location: Redmond WA | Registered: 04 September 2006
Originally posted by Slabmaster: How many hunters and fishermen ever judge non-hunters and fishermen?
This might be a stretch...but, could this be an example?
quote:
Originally posted by Slabmaster: ELF terrorists are one of our countries worst home grown scumbag organizations. Arson terrorists should be shot on sight IMO.
I wouldn't think any of ELF members are hunters.
Anyway, I'll take a stab at making a personal observation about your question. Not all but many hunters are involved in the "sport" as a result of personal self gratification, at the expense of a living sentient being. It's a cycle. Thought of the hunt, preparation for the hunt, the hunt, the killing, the adreniln rush, the trophy, the bragging rights.... Personal gratification. Hunting for food IMO is somewhat outside of this cycle.
At the other end of the spectrum (not those in the middle with little opinion any way) the anti hunters seem to be motivated by compassion for either other sentient beings or the condition of various eco systems. Their motivations seems to arise for some thing outside of themselves. BUT in some ways and in some cases self interest is also their motivation. (fear of destroying the eco system-fear of their personal destruction)
"The moon that I love clears a path through the pines And guides a stream right to the bamboo gate."Poems by Zen Master Hsu Yun: Series I
Posts: 795 | Location: western slope, northern sierra | Registered: 18 April 2003
Ted Nugent: 'Live and let live' foreign idea to left
By Ted Nugent, Texas Wildman Sunday, June 17, 2007
I like sizzling meat on the grill. Wild, huh? Anybody? Now, we all know ol' Nuge isn't by any stretch of the imagination a weirdo when it comes to an omnivorous diet.
Especially here in the great Republic of Texas, a smiling, drooling preference for succulent, protein-rich, nutritious backstrap over aromatic mesquite coals is as American and natural and right as Mom, apple pie and the flag. It's beautiful, really.
But a culture war rages against such universal, self-evident truths. It would be laughable if it were not so deranged. Some weirdos actually are on a crusade to outlaw the consumption of flesh.
I have musical touring associates who have been fired from their jobs with ex-Beatle Paul McCartney for sneaking a hamburger.
You heard that right. Fired for eating meat by an animal-rights maniac, hard-core vegan bass player.
The entire agenda of the gazillion-dollar-financed joke known as PETA literally is dedicated to outlawing meat.
Neither I, nor any hunter or meat eater on the planet, has any desire whatsoever to influence any vegetarian's choice of diet or to force them to eat meat. We are the friendly, tolerant Americans.
This is but one of many issues that represent the line drawn in the sand between liberals and conservatives.
Our own intrepid opinion editor at the Trib, my friend John Young, doesn't want to simply make the choice to be unarmed and helpless for himself. He has again recently insisted that you and I must also comply with his soulless condition of unarmed helplessness in "gun-free zones."
Nobody from our side wants to force anybody to have a gun or defend themselves. It is us, the conservatives, who are for individual choice.
Taxation, confiscation
As for the American left: One hears the words of Mao Tse-Tung come broiling out of the mouths of its heroes, when Ted Kennedy and Hillary Clinton et al unflinchingly push for "redistribution of wealth."
Central Texas' own Chet Edwards has the audacity to support taxing the after-tax life savings of American families following the death of a loved one.
The unfair, un-American, unconstitutional death tax literally destroys mom-and-pop businesses across the land. Think about it.
The wall that once symbolized communism is down, yet some still want to give it a shot. Dear God in heaven, help us.
Recently, Danny Glover, an otherwise fine actor, embarrassingly abused his uniquely American freedoms by siding with the communist Venezuelan dictator Hugo Chavez to finance what clearly appears to be an anti-American propaganda film. Nice.
Meanwhile, right there in that communist country, old Hugo is shutting down an entire media network for daring to challenge his heavy handed, corrupt, dictatorial policies.
This is a leader who has proudly sided with terrorist support groups, and Danny Glover gives him a big hug.
If a Venezuelan citizen were to do so with President Bush, I am confident that Chavez would not respect that individual's right to free expression.
Venezuela gives its citizens no right to free expression. Glover must be blinded by the trees in that forest.
Examine the agendas of the liberal "party of peace." Its members clearly don't believe you and I are smart enough or capable of making our own choices in life.
While conservatives "live and let live," the left arrogantly thinks it knows better than we do and will burden "we the people" with more government control until we are taxed to death.
Watch them. Listen, pay attention and blow whistles.
Educate your family, neighbors, friends, co-workers and hunting buddies on how dangerous such control is against the American Dream of individual pursuit of happiness.
Throw off the shackles of government-run slavery. Stand up for individual independence. Enough is enough.
Hey, Hugo and Hillary, leave me alone.
Ted Nugent is a Waco-based musician and television show host.
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
Posts: 8264 | Location: Fl | Registered: 05 July 2001
Originally posted by Slabmaster: How many hunters and fishermen ever judge non-hunters and fishermen?
This might be a stretch...but, could this be an example?
quote:
Originally posted by Slabmaster: ELF terrorists are one of our countries worst home grown scumbag organizations. Arson terrorists should be shot on sight IMO.
I wouldn't think any of ELF members are hunters.
Anyway, I'll take a stab at making a personal observation about your question. Not all but many hunters are involved in the "sport" as a result of personal self gratification, at the expense of a living sentient being. It's a cycle. Thought of the hunt, preparation for the hunt, the hunt, the killing, the adreniln rush, the trophy, the bragging rights.... Personal gratification. Hunting for food IMO is somewhat outside of this cycle.
At the other end of the spectrum (not those in the middle with little opinion any way) the anti hunters seem to be motivated by compassion for either other sentient beings or the condition of various eco systems. Their motivations seems to arise for some thing outside of themselves. BUT in some ways and in some cases self interest is also their motivation. (fear of destroying the eco system-fear of their personal destruction)
Your example is grasping at thin air to try to make a point. My comment was that hunters and fishermen do not judge non-hunters and non-fishermen for choosing not to hunt or fish. Not whacky ELF terrorists. ELF terrorists act out in destructive ways, vandalize, endanger other humans, and break arson laws. They are not simply choosing to not hunt or fish.
There is a huge personal self gratification in hunting and fishing. I see that as a good thing.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user."
Theodore Roosevelt, 1913
Posts: 2404 | Location: Redmond WA | Registered: 04 September 2006
By Ted Nugent, Texas Wildman Sunday, June 17, 2007
Neither I, nor any hunter or meat eater on the planet, has any desire whatsoever to influence any vegetarian's choice of diet or to force them to eat meat. We are the friendly, tolerant Americans.
This is but one of many issues that represent the line drawn in the sand between liberals and conservatives.
Of all the liberals I know, only one doesn't eat meat. This is due to a religious belief.
quote:
Taxation, confiscation
As for the American left: One hears the words of Mao Tse-Tung come broiling out of the mouths of its heroes, when Ted Kennedy and Hillary Clinton et al unflinchingly push for "redistribution of wealth."
And then, of course, we have the Fed pushing money into the banks for already pre-qualified borrowers so the poor banks don't have to use their own assets to provide the loans. A re-distribution of wealth on the sly. Additional loans for homes with a profit to the lender on money again subsidized by the government. It helps keep the aggregate in money supply going, and the wealthy get wealthier from it.
We all pay for the redistribution of the wealth by subsidizing low wages to provide the need for "money supply" increases for those who already have plenty. A necessity to prevent economic collapse under the current "trickle down" of monatarism.
quote:
Central Texas' own Chet Edwards has the audacity to support taxing the after-tax life savings of American families following the death of a loved one.
The unfair, un-American, unconstitutional death tax literally destroys mom-and-pop businesses across the land. Think about it.]
Then the government has the audacity to have an estate tax which really effects only a small portion of the population. Probably an effort to follow a Jeffersonian principle of not allowing economic dynasties to become a fabric of the American system. Jefferson didn't envision a repeat of a new American nobility with a concentration of economic wealth and power that would ultimately control the nations's destiny.
My uncle's estate was hit with an estate tax. He still managed to leave his wife and child one million each in cash equivalent trusts and provide for his grandchildren. The family business is still in operation.
quote:
Recently, Danny Glover, an otherwise fine actor, embarrassingly abused his uniquely American freedoms by siding with the communist Venezuelan dictator Hugo Chavez to finance what clearly appears to be an anti-American propaganda film. Nice.
Meanwhile, right there in that communist country, old Hugo is shutting down an entire media network for daring to challenge his heavy handed, corrupt, dictatorial policies.
This is a leader who has proudly sided with terrorist support groups, and Danny Glover gives him a big hug.]
And old Hugo, taking his countries resources and applying them to Venezualas needs is really the last straw. The education, medical care, and improvement in the lives of the majority of Venezualas citiizens should never be allowed to take precedence over American or British corporate interests. He was elected president of British and Corporate America, not the Venezualan people. He just doesn't get it.
Other S. American countries seem to be following suit because of his horrible example and now the U.S. may be forced to look to Africa for economic colonization. If we weren't bogged down in an oil grab in Iraq, we would be more in a position to deal with Hugo. Bad timing.
quote:
Venezuela gives its citizens no right to free expression. Glover must be blinded by the trees in that forest.
Hugo dared to use a governments perogitive to regulate the air waves and shut down a TV station that was all but fomenting revolution. He should have thrown the owners in jail for sedition, but being a stupid communist, didn't have the good sense to do so.
quote:
Examine the agendas of the liberal "party of peace." Its members clearly don't believe you and I are smart enough or capable of making our own choices in life.
While conservatives "live and let live," the left arrogantly thinks it knows better than we do and will burden "we the people" with more government control until we are taxed to death.
We should let conservatives continue making their own choices. Getting us into one ill-begotten war after another in pursuit of their ideological dreams. Let them build more prisons rather than deal with the social problems deeming them a necessity. Let them keep destroying an educational system that used to be a world standard. We'll be bled dry by their re-occurring wars and the bureacracy to maintain them. We'll continue to spend more on war production than all of the other nations in the world combined, and continue to have nothing to show for it but deficits, a deteriorating infrastructure, increased mental illness and crime.
Some day, "we the people" will have to throw the bums out and get government functioning for everyone again. If the coming financial crises doesn't wake them up, nothing will.
quote:
Watch them. Listen, pay attention and blow whistles.]
Stop the wars, the economic disparity that leads to economic collapses, bring the word "human" back into constitutional interpretation. Stop corporate dominance and control...that was Mussolini's dream of a fascist state.
quote:
Educate your family, neighbors, friends, co-workers and hunting buddies on how dangerous such control is against the American Dream of individual pursuit of happiness.
I don't recall the Declaration saying anything about the "'individual' pursuit of happiness at the expense of the majority" Rapists, for example, aren't allowed to "pursue happiness" in any manner they please...and I do recommend being educated on the dangerous control of a corporate state.
quote:
Ted Nugent is a Waco-based musician and television show host.
Sure that isn't a mis-spelling? WACKO instead of Waco?
Retired Monk "Ideology is a disease"
Posts: 3412 | Location: denver co | Registered: 17 April 2007
Originally posted by buteos: In case you've not figured it out yet, another disguised identity of the Administrator playing her silly little games.
Chris, I've been hanging around here since 2003. Just a note to new guests, things are never as they appear. My trust in others seems to have blinded me to the reality of Thom, the characters involved here and the whole idea of this website. Could you clarify your statement above to help resolve some doubts that are beginning to arise about this place?
"The moon that I love clears a path through the pines And guides a stream right to the bamboo gate."Poems by Zen Master Hsu Yun: Series I
Posts: 795 | Location: western slope, northern sierra | Registered: 18 April 2003
Ric, speaking about doubts, I got an email from Ariel who told the Administrator she wants her ID deleted; she wants out for the same reason tendered on the other site. Basically she was tired of cyber rape by the neo-con contingent. Since they have taken over the site, a lot of interesting people have moved on. Notwithstanding those with a core sense of their individuality independent of any group affiliation, I guess this site will always attract those with who need to identify with either the blue herd or the red herd.
Posts: 1162 | Location: Boulder Creek Watershed | Registered: 14 February 2004
Chris- In Thoms sense of the term; The real "hunters" are indeed being killed off and driven away, even here at Thom's site, how ironic. Being swept away by a bunch of obedient, wheat eating farmers, with no sontaneity or creativity. They only seem to know how to dress up and play hunter.
"The moon that I love clears a path through the pines And guides a stream right to the bamboo gate."Poems by Zen Master Hsu Yun: Series I
Posts: 795 | Location: western slope, northern sierra | Registered: 18 April 2003
**** Disclaimer: The information in this weblog is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights. This weblog does not represent the thoughts, intentions, plans or strategies of my owner. It is solely my own personal opinion. Inappropriate comments will be deleted at the authors discretion.***
"I stand or fall on my own words."
Posts: 7253 | Location: PORTLAND | Registered: 07 November 2005
Originally posted by bamboo: Chris- In Thoms sense of the term; The real "hunters" are indeed being killed off and driven away, even here at Thom's site, how ironic. Being swept away by a bunch of obedient, wheat eating farmers, with no sontaneity or creativity. They only seem to know how to dress up and play hunter.
Or.....
when challenged in their belief systems, they run and hide due to lack of confidence in their positions. I find in entertaining to watch mice scurry when disturbed.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user."
Theodore Roosevelt, 1913
Posts: 2404 | Location: Redmond WA | Registered: 04 September 2006
I find in entertaining to watch mice scurry when disturbed.
Sage rat hunting in Redmond. mmmm good times.
They have pity parties every so often. There annoying but you tolerate them, because were tolerant people.
**** Disclaimer: The information in this weblog is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights. This weblog does not represent the thoughts, intentions, plans or strategies of my owner. It is solely my own personal opinion. Inappropriate comments will be deleted at the authors discretion.***
"I stand or fall on my own words."
Posts: 7253 | Location: PORTLAND | Registered: 07 November 2005
Originally posted by bamboo: Chris- In Thoms sense of the term; The real "hunters" are indeed being killed off and driven away, even here at Thom's site, how ironic. Being swept away by a bunch of obedient, wheat eating farmers, with no sontaneity or creativity. They only seem to know how to dress up and play hunter.
Or.....
when challenged in their belief systems, they run and hide due to lack of confidence in their positions. I find in entertaining to watch mice scurry when disturbed.
The point of "positions" is what? My dog defends it's positions, but isn't very bright. It does tend to come in when its position is challenged by the actuality of a rainstorm.
Conservatives maintain their position to the very end, climb out of the collapsed economic storm around them yelling, "...but I was right! This can't be happening!" They did it in '29, they'll do it again.
Sometimes, it's better to go off and discuss things with people who seek to learn/teach rather than maintain a position like my dog. Unthinking, not much of a brain, but uses a very loud bark in an attempt to scare a rainstorm away. It still rains.
All the rhetoric in the world won't stop it. Buy a little gold. May be able to exchange it for a worthwile currency down the line.
On the other hand, if the housing bubble keeps falling in line with wages (as it should), keep some cash handy to pick up the bargains.
Housing valuations are based on 3 things. One is demand/supply. The basic value is, the value of the land and the cost of replacing the house. As wages fall, the cost to replace the house will drop equally. This means, your house will be worth less than you paid for it.
Your mortgage remains the same, with a loss in wages. The house can't be sold for the mortgage cost, because its not worth what is owed on it.
Keep lowering wages, and you lower property values along with the ability to maintain mortages. The glut of trying to get out from under a mortage before foreclosure, becomes a market of no takers. A market of no takers hampers the ability of the Fed to control the money supply. Rainy day time. Bark and chase away the storm. Your position is, "it won't rain." Laws of economics say it will. "Arf, Arf", is the conservative reply.
Retired Monk "Ideology is a disease"
Posts: 3412 | Location: denver co | Registered: 17 April 2007
Poly, feel free to follow your own lead, but my suggestion is just to ignore galactic stupidity whenever it rears up on its tip toes. I think a little history lesson is in order to give you some extent of what you are up against. Log, was banned from this site last fall. And being the obsequious little ass kisser he is, he proceeded to get back on presumably from another computer where he offered a contrite letter telling everyone how sorry he was for his little outbursts. He then proceeded to crawl in the dirt licking the hands of his Masters in hopes they would reinstate him. The outcome is as you see. As far as the other moron goes, when he is not stuffing is fat ass at Dunkin Doughnuts, presumably, he is running to the bathroom to beat off to get rid of all that tension from sitting in front of his computer all day long.
Posts: 1162 | Location: Boulder Creek Watershed | Registered: 14 February 2004
I certainly WAS banned. Wrongfully by the way. Andger was being a dick, and poor Usha just couldn't be a good moderator and sided with her friend, I'm back their gone, La La La La La.. Yippe. Get over it. Ass kisser.. HA. It called putting forth a great argument for my appeal, Lucky for me it was easy to do with all the material I had from andger.
Maybe try some prozac to calm your nerves.
I'm going on a limb here, The reason Thom doesn't do anything about the pictures he might not like, HE values Freedom of Speech over personal likes and dislikes, Something you guys obviously dont. You spend hours beating the crap out of a man that never is here. Definition of insanity?
That was fun, thanks. I needed that?
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"I stand or fall on my own words."
Posts: 7253 | Location: PORTLAND | Registered: 07 November 2005
Originally posted by buteos: Poly, feel free to follow your own lead, but my suggestion is just to ignore galactic stupidity whenever it rears up on its tip toes. I think a little history lesson is in order to give you some extent of what you are up against. Log, was banned from this site last fall. And being the obsequious little ass kisser he is, he proceeded to get back on presumably from another computer where he offered a contrite letter telling everyone how sorry he was for his little outbursts. He then proceeded to crawl in the dirt licking the hands of his Masters in hopes they would reinstate him. The outcome is as you see. As far as the other moron goes, when he is not stuffing is fat ass at Dunkin Doughnuts, presumably, he is running to the bathroom to beat off to get rid of all that tension from sitting in front of his computer all day long.
Fascinating position.
Now that I know Loganthors past, I feel cyber raped by talking to his neo-con self.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user."
Theodore Roosevelt, 1913
Posts: 2404 | Location: Redmond WA | Registered: 04 September 2006
he offered a contrite letter telling everyone how sorry he was for his little outbursts
No I didn't. Funny little fantasy to have about me.
Yup just check my "letter from Loganthor" that is still here, since you dont have the appeal letter. No "sorry's" I did say I felt bad on my role in the fight.
**** Disclaimer: The information in this weblog is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights. This weblog does not represent the thoughts, intentions, plans or strategies of my owner. It is solely my own personal opinion. Inappropriate comments will be deleted at the authors discretion.***
"I stand or fall on my own words."
Posts: 7253 | Location: PORTLAND | Registered: 07 November 2005
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