Fundamentally what is outsourcing about? It is about replacing a higher-paid worker with a lower-paid worker.
I.e., it is about saving on labor cost.
And this is also what mechanization is about. Machines are developed which do the work at lower cost and so are installed in place of workers. And this is progress, i.e., it makes the economy better, not worse, even though millions of workers are replaced.
If you don't agree, then you must be in favor of ripping out all the robots and computers that have been replacing human workers for generations and putting human workers back in place of the machines.
So if you do not want to put the workers back into those jobs, you are acknowledging that it is good for the economy that the workers were replaced by those machines. And so it was good to save on those labor costs.
And if you are able to recognize this benefit of replacing high-cost workers, then why do you have a problem recognizing that it is also beneficial to replace higher-paid workers with lower-paid workers?
Such replacement of high-paid workers provides the same economic results/benefits as replacing them with machines that do the job cheaper.
In either case we have laid-off workers who might have difficulty finding a new job and who might try to go on welfare. Even so, the economy as a whole benefits from the replacement of those higher-paid workers.
You think there's a difference between replacing those workers with machines and replacing them with cheap labor? A difference such that it is bad to replace them with cheap labor even though it is good to replace them with machines?
What is that difference?
Why do you think it is OK to replace those workers with machines, which has been going on for at least 200 years to society's benefit, but it is not OK to replace them with cheap labor?
How are the economic consequences different if the workers are replaced by cheap labor? How are they not the same consequences that occur by replacing them with machines?
And what is the benefit of replacing them? The cost savings is good for all of us, not just the employers. All consumers benefit from the lower prices that result from the replacement of higher-paid workers by anything that does the same job at lower cost.
If this is not the benefit of replacing workers with machines, then what is?
The difference is that whatever machines are designed to mechanise production they need producing and create a whole different labor force. There is a natural shift. IT has produced a fast field of experts.
When outsourcing, jobs are not replaced by another, there is no shift. Jobs leave the country, causing poverty.
Posts: 863 | Location: West Palm Beach, FL | Registered: 21 June 2007
One hole in your argument Freetrader is that reduced labor costs do not necessarily transfer into reduced prices on the market. Look up the Labor Theory of Value (written about by, among others, David Ricardo, famous economist). Prices adjust according to what the market will bear. So, reduced labor costs do not translate into a benefit for "everyone".
One hole in your argument Freetrader is that reduced labor costs do not necessarily transfer into reduced prices on the market.
That's not the duty of reduced labor cost. That duty is assigned to competition.
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
Posts: 8264 | Location: Fl | Registered: 05 July 2001
free, after scanning your piece I have the following comments: - slavery is not progress. Every society already experienced it and abandoned because ........ slavery isn't productive/efficient. In other words, slavery is a regress ... way, way back. - machines are probably fine (not sure) as long as they serve us, and not enslave us. - thank you for providing the opportunity to remind people that the "workers of the world" were promised that technical innovation would bring them liberation, and they would work very short weeks, and the rest of their leisure time they would be "leisure people." In reality, "workers of this country" spend 70 hours a week working, working, working, monitored every second, and paid less and less. I can hear the computers laugh. They should. In other words, how one can see enslavement (either because of industrialization or outsourcing) as progress is beyond me. Can I suggest you open some books. If you are ready, I can give you a list.
Posts: 371 | Location: New York | Registered: 01 July 2007
Anna, who said anything about slavery? This is a free market, where people with time to sell can sell it to the highest bidder at a rate that depends upon the buyer's return on investment.
And the average worker spends nowhere close to 70 hours a week working, at least not for a corporation:
quote:
--Employed persons worked 7.6 hours on average on the days that they worked. They worked more hours on weekdays than on weekend days--8.0 versus 5.4 hours.
I reckon that most people work more hours outside of their job for a corporation. Perhaps they work on tasks related to their home, or their family. Personally I am in a services business and work closer to 65 hours per week, but that's because of my choice of profession and that I choose to work for a small company.
There is a shift with machinery. Also people to design, build and maintain the machines.
Greatest benefit from a business point of view would be no pay at all. We fought a Civil War over that one.
What is the difference when the wage is 30 cents an hour and a days wages can't even buy one of the shirts you are making?
Will your business really thrive if U.S. workers earn 30 cents an hour to compete with China? Could you earn enough to pay set costs such as business loans, loans on machinery or buildings? A lot couldn't even pay the mortgages on their homes.
Want to collapse an economy? Lower the wages really fast. Outsource as quickly as you can. It's good for business until you run out of customers.
Retired Monk "Ideology is a disease"
Posts: 3412 | Location: denver co | Registered: 17 April 2007
Originally posted by anna251: thank you for providing the opportunity to remind people that the "workers of the world" were promised that technical innovation would bring them liberation, and they would work very short weeks, and the rest of their leisure time they would be "leisure people."
Who made those promises?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user."
Theodore Roosevelt, 1913
Posts: 2404 | Location: Redmond WA | Registered: 04 September 2006
There are so many high tech job openings across the street, it is mind boggling. Lots of Indians coming over to fill them. There is no shortage of jobs Poly, just willing job seekers.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user."
Theodore Roosevelt, 1913
Posts: 2404 | Location: Redmond WA | Registered: 04 September 2006
Proud, What's wrong with conservatives - they can't read.
Sorry to bring you bad news, but most slaves in ancient times (when most of the slavery took place) enter slavery from free market. Bad year for a small farmer and he is forced to come to a wealthy one and ask for bread in exchange ... you know now ... yes, slave labor.
Statistics: Let me remind that "there are lies, big lies and statistics." Americans work many more hours than recorded. Among other things, in many occupations people are brainwashed/terrorized in believing/proclaiming that "professionals don't count hours." Usually, they are just afraid of loosing their jobs, and work, work, work (yes, 70 hours instead of 40). Many people work during weekends or vacations. (It also means that American productivity is much worse than stated) In addition, facts are distorted and manipulated by federal agencies.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: anna251,
Posts: 371 | Location: New York | Registered: 01 July 2007
Many people in the US work for less than a living wage. But a living wage is the amount that one can make and be able to pay for the average expenses of living. Anything less than a living wage gets one less than basic needs met; maybe it's cheap housing, or lack of access to healthcare, or a diet of inexpensive fast foods, or often all of the above and other lackings. I have known of people that worked 2 jobs and thier spouse also worked two jobs to cover costs for their families that didn't include health care. In the mid sixties the minimum wage was a living wage. One person in the household could provide the basic necessities for her or his family with it. Not only that but labor unions had faught and recieved guaranteed work place safety standards and days off--including weekends as well as vacation and holidays. They also had other benefits that included health care and retirement funds. Their jobs provided living wages. Their families could live on the their wages. Not only that, but they had money to spend. That caused economic activity....(of course that really needs to be based on sustainable practices).
So, when people work long hours, losing weekends, etc. and their money hardly covers their costs, they are drained, and have nothing to give to an economy or their families. The term down-trodden comes to mind. Then options began to be smaller and smaller, darkness can move in and take over. Slavery to some degree applies.
When we go to third world countries where labor unions haven't been able to guarantee labor protections that provide for equitable pay, safety, restrict child labor, etc. ever, than slavery can be outright. So what if they get paid .30 cents a day. It hardly covers their cost of living. But perhaps they can get a meal a day. That is really a cheaper slave force even than it is when slave owners house and feed their slaves.
Cheap labor is a word that contrasts dramatically with living wage. It means everything it says. It costs the company less so that profits go up. But like anything cheap, it means the quality goes down. In this case it's the quality of the lives of laborers, though the quality of the product suffers as well and since profit is the primary concern the safety to the consumer does too.
So that's slave labor in modern times. It's pretty hideouse that the American public got swindeled into believing that their heritage was a strong "work ethic" so they could feel pride in conceeding labor victories like weekends off and a safe environment to work in as well as wages that made it possible for them to have a sense of dignity in living not to mention a family life.
eley
"Sweet dreams and flying machines in pieces on the ground"--Sweet Baby James
Posts: 1979 | Location: Texas | Registered: 21 August 2004
"living wages" and great oportunity are all around us. I see it everyday.
Good post, Ely.
Slab, You live in a delusional bubble. Everyone should be able to earn enough to live on in a decent manner.
I also realize you don't subscribe to the International Covenent on Political, Social and Cultural Rights. Neither does your country. It signed it, but only after striking every clause pertaining to human rights. Otherwise, it would be put in the embarrasing position of having to pass laws against them one by one in order not to implement it.
So much for you concepts of freedom, justice and human rights. They ring hollow.
Haiti pretty much reflects your ideals. Take a trip and fall in love with it. It'll be the vacation of a lifetime.
Retired Monk "Ideology is a disease"
Posts: 3412 | Location: denver co | Registered: 17 April 2007
I live in a small community (about 16,000) in southern WV, although we have several smaller unincorporated communities around us. Our area is usually described as one of the poorer in the country in a state that is typically ranked as one of the worst in the country in terms of business climate.
We have two hospitals, two Wal-mart supercenters, three Kroger food stores, two Food Lion stores, all the fast food chains that exist along with all of the other restaurant chains. A local entrepreneur just built a state of the art 16 screen movie house that is packed. We have two malls, along with several strip malls. We have the biggest Lowes store in WV. At 5:00 PM, our traffic congestion would rival that of a much larger town.
Our local paper is full of help wanted ads. Equipment operators, coal miners, medical profession, engineers, mechanics, accountants/clerical, etc. For anyone looking for entry type work, that is also plentiful. I am over 50 years old and I have never seen a job market like we have right now.
I met a 21 year old about two weeks ago. He recently finished a two year program at a local community and technical school in diesel mechanics. He had six different job offers on graduation day. He will start out at $48,000/year with full benefits including health insurance and a 401K. That may not sound like much to some of you, but this is in an area where our cost of living is lower than in many parts of the US.
I frequently travel to the northeast and the south. I see nothing but growth occuring in these areas. This drumbeat I hear from some about how bad things are certainly doesn't ring true for this part of the world.
"Support mental health, or I'll kill you".
Posts: 825 | Location: West Virginia | Registered: 27 January 2006
Originally posted by Coalage500: I live in a small community (about 16,000) in southern WV, although we have several smaller unincorporated communities around us. Our area is usually described as one of the poorer in the country in a state that is typically ranked as one of the worst in the country in terms of business climate.
We have two hospitals, two Wal-mart supercenters, three Kroger food stores, two Food Lion stores, all the fast food chains that exist along with all of the other restaurant chains. A local entrepreneur just built a state of the art 16 screen movie house that is packed. We have two malls, along with several strip malls. We have the biggest Lowes store in WV. At 5:00 PM, our traffic congestion would rival that of a much larger town.
Our local paper is full of help wanted ads. Equipment operators, coal miners, medical profession, engineers, mechanics, accountants/clerical, etc. For anyone looking for entry type work, that is also plentiful. I am over 50 years old and I have never seen a job market like we have right now.
I met a 21 year old about two weeks ago. He recently finished a two year program at a local community and technical school in diesel mechanics. He had six different job offers on graduation day. He will start out at $48,000/year with full benefits including health insurance and a 401K. That may not sound like much to some of you, but this is in an area where our cost of living is lower than in many parts of the US.
I frequently travel to the northeast and the south. I see nothing but growth occuring in these areas. This drumbeat I hear from some about how bad things are certainly doesn't ring true for this part of the world.
Well, if you have two Wal-Marts in a small place, your people really have a wonderful life (sarcasm, sarcasm). I am sure that it's Wal-Mart's employees who form all these huge lines to Mercedes-Benz selling places.
But why do we, taxpayers have to pay for their medical coverage?
Posts: 371 | Location: New York | Registered: 01 July 2007
You miss the point. We have two WM's because of the growth in our area. Krogers is a unionized grocery store...not sure about Food Lion. They both seem to be doing okay too.
And yes...the WM's are usually packed. I shop there often. I wish less people would go there so I could get a closer parking space.
And yes...we do have a wonderful life here. The lowest crime rate in the country, beautiful scenery, and a relatively low cost of living. Maybe some of the people who are having a hard time in other areas of the country should move here for the opportunities.
"Support mental health, or I'll kill you".
Posts: 825 | Location: West Virginia | Registered: 27 January 2006
Originally posted by eleyballel: Look at the term living wage.
Many people in the US work for less than a living wage. But a living wage is the amount that one can make and be able to pay for the average expenses of living. Anything less than a living wage gets one less than basic needs met; maybe it's cheap housing, or lack of access to healthcare, or a diet of inexpensive fast foods, or often all of the above and other lackings. I have known of people that worked 2 jobs and thier spouse also worked two jobs to cover costs for their families that didn't include health care. In the mid sixties the minimum wage was a living wage. One person in the household could provide the basic necessities for her or his family with it. Not only that but labor unions had faught and recieved guaranteed work place safety standards and days off--including weekends as well as vacation and holidays. They also had other benefits that included health care and retirement funds. Their jobs provided living wages. Their families could live on the their wages. Not only that, but they had money to spend. That caused economic activity....(of course that really needs to be based on sustainable practices).
So, when people work long hours, losing weekends, etc. and their money hardly covers the
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