By Freetrader: Fundamentally what is outsourcing about? It is about replacing a higher-paid worker with a lower-paid worker.
I.e., it is about saving on labor cost.
That is the sole purpose for the employer. At best they can claim that it would lower prices thereby benefiting the American public, but it doesn't. What it really does is create bonuses for the CEOs and his cronies.
How this plays out in reality is that American jobs are taken away and given to foreign countries. We help THEIR economy while we hurt our own. Cause unemployment and poverty. That is clearly not advantageous for any economy, and is in direct violation of any oath of office our officials gave upon entering that office.
A Government that truly represents its people does not allow the taking away of jobs so that it provides a better bottom line for Corporate America and a bonus for the CEO who, in turn will reward our elected officials by funding their next election, while causing rampant unemployment and hardship at home. That is legal bribery. And an incredible insult to the American public whom they are supposed to represent. They belong in jail.
Its a crock.
Posts: 863 | Location: West Palm Beach, FL | Registered: 21 June 2007
Originally posted by Sawdust: Jay, your quote makes it look like I said that. I know better.
Sloppy work on my part.
But, I have a variety of excuses for my poor performance that will surely blow enough smoke your way so I am not accountable for anything.
-I was in a hurry. -I was overworked and couldn't concentrate. -I was distracted. -I have a hangover. -The power went out as I was posting. -I'm not paid enough to care. -It's not my job to proof my own posts. -Loganthor told me to do it. -I hate the muggy humidity in Florida. -I don't understand. -No one told me how to do it. -I wasn't trained. -My kid is sick. -I need a loan. -My car broke down. -Bush lied. -I was eating dinner at an Outback and got a splinter in my ass from the furniture. -
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user."
Theodore Roosevelt, 1913
Posts: 2404 | Location: Redmond WA | Registered: 04 September 2006
Just how is an employee going to do that and advance in a career if they don't place a high priority on job performance?
You aren't reading my postings. Isn't this what I just wrote?
quote:
Number two is to foster the success of the business by providing the services and products that the customer desires. That is, by doing the best possible job.
Posts: 946 | Location: Newberg | Registered: 15 March 2006
Hey Kate! It's good to be here. Don't have much time though so I'm going to make it quick and simple. If you do have 18 or so minutes, this is a good speech--I liked it--and in line with this discussion:
The number one priority for an employee is to earn a living for himself and his family.
No, that's a priority for the Dad, Mom, family head whatever. NOT the employee. Clearly you don't understand why businesses exist.
Why do businesses exist Art?
quote:
Do you really believe that any rational person would come to make money for you if he didn't have to take a job for his living?
No. Also I don't believe any rational person would start a business just to give people jobs or NOT to make money or serve some other purpose he/she has.
Gerry,
quote:
What it really does is create bonuses for the CEOs and his cronies.
You guys like using negative terminology like "cronies". Why? Think about what you are saying as it relates to the millions of smaller companies around America, like mine, that have a CEO of a 20-person company. Or like Sawdust or Slabmaster, who have companies between 50-250 employees or so. Are you calling them evil CEOs with "cronies"? Or honest Americans who have worked hard to make a living for THEIR families?
You tug at the heart strings but have no thought or substance behind the words.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: ProudCon,
You, guys, don't understand. Proud is absolutely right. For every employee a priority in life should be his boss's profit. That's why he must work 70-80 hours a week (no vacations), and collapse every night in front of some idiotic TV. This way he won't have energy for some other so called priorities (where did you get all these ideas?), and stay focus on what really matters.
Posts: 371 | Location: New York | Registered: 01 July 2007
No. Also I don't believe any rational person would start a business just to give people jobs or NOT to make money or serve some other purpose he/she has.
Proudcon, try using your imagination. You might find there's a whole world out there you're missing out on. That is such a limited statement of reality, I personally can't imagine the drudgery you must live in.
Here's an article about business, profit and mission. And here's a little clip:
"We believe businesses exist for profit, and we have been taught that profit is bad. But neither statement is true.Profit is a requirement to stay in business and continue serving those needs."
eley
"Sweet dreams and flying machines in pieces on the ground"--Sweet Baby James
Posts: 1979 | Location: Texas | Registered: 21 August 2004
Profit for profit sake is what drives war, and is the end all and be all of the destructiveness Western Civilization has been responsible for for mellinea now.
If you want to be aligned with such dark forces, I guess that's your prerogative, otherwise, you might want to find a mission in your life that carries meaning.
Profit should be a means--not an end.
eley
"Sweet dreams and flying machines in pieces on the ground"--Sweet Baby James
Posts: 1979 | Location: Texas | Registered: 21 August 2004
Proudcon, kindly direct your rebuttals toward the proper people. The "cronies" remark came from somebody other than me.
This is the reason that your egocentric worldview is absolutely wrong:
You are the owner of your business. You alone have the power to make the decisions that will determine whether your business is a success or a failure. In other words, the fortunes of your business are purely, and exclusively a matter of YOUR PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. (You do believe in personal responsibility, don't you?) Your employees are absolutely powerless to make these decisions. Their entire responsibility is to carry out the decisions made by YOU in the best possible way they can. It is not their responsibility to make a profit for you. It is YOUR responsibility to produce profits by being a competent business owner.
The employee comes to work for you in order to feed his family, and he does so within the constraint of the rules that you make for him. If he does so to the best of his ability, then he has fulfilled his responsibility and his only concern is to receive from you what is owed him and to hope that YOU have been competent enough to ensure the ongoing existence of the business and, therefore, his job.
Trust me. Nobody who works for you gives a crap whether you are living in luxury or drowning in personal debt.
quote:
Why do businesses exist Art?
Your business exists so that you might be able to profit from it. Whether YOU are able to do so is exclusively YOUR responsibility. It is an inconvenient fact that you are probably unable to do so without hiring employees. You must make a business deal with them. That would be called an "employment contract", whether it is written or implied.
In the same way that I make a contract with the guy who sells me a car but have no expectation that that guy will do any more than fulfill his end of the contract, you are not entitled to expect any more of your employees than that they follow your rules. If you believe that you can contract with anyone to "make a profit for you", it would make for some pretty interesting contract language.
The notion that it is the employees' responsibility to make money for the employer is emblematic of the type of hubris that characterizes the "executive culture". "I have all the power. I make all the decisions. If I fail, it's those damned underlings who are at fault. They didn't work hard enough. They weren't sufficiently dedicated to make money for me."
In other words, while you are busy ensuring that your employees are doing their jobs, you might want to take a minute to make sure that you are doing yours.
Posts: 946 | Location: Newberg | Registered: 15 March 2006
That is such a limited statement of reality, I personally can't imagine the drudgery you must live in.
We are only talking about a single aspect of life eley, not the whole of it. So while I appreciate your concern over my supposed drudgery, you don't need to worry about me. I have fullness of life.
quote:
Profit should be a means--not an end.
Not for everything, true. But it is the main reason most businesses exist, and it is the only way a business can prosper. I don't know how that can be defined as "dark forces". You use profit every single day to further your meaningful life.
quote:
Here's an article about business, profit and mission.
Wonderful. I am happy that this organization exists for reasons other than profit. That's great. Our company does too, by the way. And your point is?
Anna:
quote:
For every employee a priority in life should be his boss's profit. That's why he must work 70-80 hours a week (no vacations), and collapse every night in front of some idiotic TV.
Anna would you say this is a "limited statement of reality" or a creative one?
Let me rewrite your sentence to deliver the message I am intending, since you aren't getting it:
quote:
For every employee a priority in his jobshould be his boss's profit.
Employees exist to make money for the shareholder(s).
Artlo:
quote:
It is YOUR responsibility to produce profits by being a competent business owner.
You are splitting hairs. As a person, he is there to make money for his family. As an employee, he is there to make money for the company.
This is something that liberals just cannot grasp. Companies do not exist to have employees. Employees exist for the sake of the company. Yes Art, I will hire or fire people in order to fulfill my responsibility of making a profit for myself. Employees are not forced to work for me according to my terms. We have a contract that works for both sides. That has nothing to do with the FACT that their responsibility is to make me money.
You narrow-mindedly say:
"I have all the power. I make all the decisions. If I fail, it's those damned underlings who are at fault. They didn't work hard enough. They weren't sufficiently dedicated to make money for me."
Once again, you appear to defend your position by simply villainizing business owners! Businesses fail for lots of reasons, most of the time its purely the owner.
If a businesss onwer can't make a profit and pay a living wage, he shouldn't be in business. His business isn't viable.
The German auto makers have made record profits this year...under a governmental system that seeks to insure rising qualities of life for its citizens and a better distribution of the nation's wealth.
American owned GM and Ford have shown record losses. Thank you social policies that contribute to the cost of auto production and lowers the number of consumers able to buy them...such as a lack of national health care and a diminishing middle class.
Business owners tend to cut their own throats by maintaing prior century social policies.
Retired Monk "Ideology is a disease"
Posts: 3412 | Location: denver co | Registered: 17 April 2007
As an employee, he is there to make money for the company.
No. He is there to follow YOUR instructions as best he can. It is up to YOU to provide instructions that will result in profitability.
quote:
This is something that liberals just cannot grasp. Companies do not exist to have employees. Employees exist for the sake of the company.
I am a liberal and I believe that I summarized this quite accurately.
quote:
Your business exists so that you might be able to profit from it. Whether YOU are able to do so is exclusively YOUR responsibility. It is an inconvenient fact that you are probably unable to do so without hiring employees. You must make a business deal with them. That would be called an "employment contract", whether it is written or implied.
It is purely a matter of public policy that it is a good thing for the country that businesses should exist and that substantially full employment (no more than 5% unemployment) is the goal to achieve. As an employer, you have your reasons for enjoying the existence of your company. I have mine. It is arrogant and self-centered to conflate the two under the single umbrella reason for businesses as "to make money for me." You don't seem to understand that that is YOUR job - not mine.
quote:
As a person, he is there to make money for his family. As an employee, he is there to make money for the company.
Try writing that into a contract. Try as hard as you might, you cannot slough your own responsibility onto the backs of other people.
quote:
You are splitting hairs.
To me, this is not a hair. It is a giant cable, and it separates the interests of the employer and the interests of the employee. They are profoundly different in this respect .
Posts: 946 | Location: Newberg | Registered: 15 March 2006
Poly, I am horrified. I cannot believe you are blaming the problems of Ford and GM on social policies. It's their own fault they haven't made any money.
Originally posted by ProudCon: Poly, I am horrified. I cannot believe you are blaming the problems of Ford and GM on social policies. It's their own fault they haven't made any money.
You haven't addressed any of my comments.
Haven't you read the remarks of their CEO's about their health care costs making them uncompetitive?
Part of it is their fault. They are producing autos for a rising middle class, not a declining one. They believe their own ideologies.
Mercedes sales are way up. Of course, Western Europe also has a lot of consumers who can afford them.
Social policies in Germany alone have created 170,000 well paying high-tech jobs in a new solar industry.
Retired Monk "Ideology is a disease"
Posts: 3412 | Location: denver co | Registered: 17 April 2007
He is there to follow YOUR instructions as best he can.
I don't hire people in order that they might follow my instructions. I can get a dog to follow instructions and not pay him anything if I really want.
I hired somone to make me money, period.
quote:
Try writing that into a contract.
You are confused and babbling. We aren't talking about words in a contract, we are talking about the purposes for having employees. I don't give a crap what's in the contract. The position exists to make money for me.
quote: He is there to follow YOUR instructions as best he can.
I don't hire people in order that they might follow my instructions. I can get a dog to follow instructions and not pay him anything if I really want.
I hired somone to make me money, period.
quote: Try writing that into a contract.
You are confused and babbling. We aren't talking about words in a contract, we are talking about the purposes for having employees. I don't give a crap what's in the contract. The position exists to make money for me.
Posts: 946 | Location: Newberg | Registered: 15 March 2006
You are confused and babbling. We aren't talking about words in a contract, we are talking about the purposes for having employees. I don't give a crap what's in the contract. The position exists to make money for me.
A problem occurs when the underlying sometimes unconscious belief becomes, "People exist to make a profit for me". It's the underlying ideology in our social structures.
One reason we don't have Universal Health care or a minimum wage that even approaches that of European nations. Another reason why we don't have free access to university education as we did when Jefferson established the Univ. of Virginia...and as is more of a norm in other industrialized nations.
American ideology is "what is good for me", not what is good for the nation as a whole.
Europe competes just fine without "outsourcing". Their poverty rates decline, not rise. Their businesses are making record profits without destroying their own economic base.
Oustsourced production facilities are to provide products for the country they are located in, not as a replacement for the ones in their own nations.
Their currency isn't declining on world markets. They have home-produced products to back it up. The dollar used to be worth more than the Euro. Now its worth 60 cents..and falling.
Retired Monk "Ideology is a disease"
Posts: 3412 | Location: denver co | Registered: 17 April 2007
I had this conversation with 2 production managers and a dozen production employees.
I explained the full circle from when a job is called in to collecting the check at the end. Most production employees don't see the end work in that circle of life or nearly what goes into getting us paid. They see a portion of the total. Their portion has a great effect on the whole.
Part of our discussion centers on profit sharing. Showing the entire effort to job completion hopefully helps them understand that if they come to work with any other intention than to generate profits, they are missing the big picture. Profits sustain the company. Profits make peyroll. Payroll feeds families.
If employees don't get the simple logic that profuts are every employees responsibility or start saying that "it's not my job" to worry about profits, they will miss the opportunity to share in profits.
This year, I have relieved our ranks of bad seed employees. Ones who made making a profit more difficult. Ones who were too high maintenance. Ones who did not adquately produce. The remaining employees received increases in pay and higher expectations to produce. They appear to be happy with the arraingment. They all understand that their #1 mission is to produce profitably for the company which in turn produces for them.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user."
Theodore Roosevelt, 1913
Posts: 2404 | Location: Redmond WA | Registered: 04 September 2006
Discussion Community 
