How about answering your own post in which you slander ART huh?
Read what he said in total. He believes that it would be fine to "Democratically" vote on wha the owners of a company do with their private property. On top of that he doesn't know what outsourcing is. Every manufacturer outsources. What he is objecting to is offshoring.
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
Posts: 8264 | Location: Fl | Registered: 05 July 2001
Conservatives believe that people exist to serve the economy, not the other way around.
Bullshit. People exist because they exist, nothing more nothing less. If you want to give existence some mythical meaning fine. I won't tell you what to believe and having you constantly make up fantasies about what I believe is why I find you so irritating.
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
Posts: 8264 | Location: Fl | Registered: 05 July 2001
By Freetrader: The question not being answered by Gerry and most others posting on this board is: Why do you think it's bad for companies to replace workers with cheap (foreign) labor but it's not bad to replace those workers with machines (robots, computers, etc.)?
I suppose "off-shoring" would be more accurate. "Outsourcing", as you mean it, is a whole 'nother issue.
quote:
He believes that it would be fine to "Democratically" vote on what the owners of a company do with their private property
We've been through this before. There is no issue on the table over what you do with your private property. Go down onto the shop floor with your saws, routers and compressors anytime you want. Knock yourself out. Nobody cares.
What you do with the people that you rent by the hour is quite a different matter, and this is most certainly a matter that is eligible for democratic oversight.
(P.S., the word is "frightening". "Freightening" would have something to do with the hauling of cargo.)
Posts: 946 | Location: Newberg | Registered: 15 March 2006
Conservatives believe that people exist to serve the economy, not the other way around.
Bullshit. People exist because they exist, nothing more nothing less. If you want to give existence some mythical meaning fine. I won't tell you what to believe and having you constantly make up fantasies about what I believe is why I find you so irritating.
If you can read freetraders posts and discern that people are more important than their economic function, you are sure reading a different lanaguage. It was their function to kings, their function to nobility, their function to dictators.
Basic needs required for human life aren't considered. Only an efficient economy. Efficient for whom? Either economies are seen as existing to serve people, or people are seen to exist to serve economies. The truth is in the middle.
They serve one another in a symbiotic relationship. When this relationship isn't beneficial all the way around, there is dysfunction. "What is good for me regardless of consequences to others" promotes dysfunction in societies. It tends to fill prisons and cause other undesireable things. Collapse of nations and political systems being the most obvious, historically.
"Ideology is a disease" Retired Monk
Posts: 3412 | Location: denver co | Registered: 17 April 2007
If you can read freetraders posts and discern that people are more important than their economic function, you are sure reading a different language.
Those are his opinions and he is entitled to them. Most of them have to deal with the fact that a trade is a good trade if both parties agree that they were better in the end. You on the other hand don't seem to want to accept that bit of freedom.
Your view seems to be from each according to his ability, to each according to his need. I'm really sorry to tell you this, but that's been tried. It doesn't work.
Tell you what I think. I've been reading a lot here lately from people who think our nation is declining. If it is, it's because of people like you who want us to forget everything that made this nation great and change it into a feel good collectivist commune where competition is bad and achievement isn't celebrated, it's looked down on because winning isn't fair.
This nation was built by rugged individuals with dreams and the freedom to pursue them. Not by people sitting on the sidelines with their hands out and signs saying the government should care for them because they can't care for themselves.
You are ruining the country. Stop it.
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
Posts: 8264 | Location: Fl | Registered: 05 July 2001
This nation was built by rugged individuals with dreams and the freedom to pursue them. Not by people sitting on the sidelines with their hands out and signs saying the government should care for them because they can't care for themselves.
Leaves you kinda spechless, doesn't it?
Posts: 946 | Location: Newberg | Registered: 15 March 2006
If you can read freetraders posts and discern that people are more important than their economic function, you are sure reading a different language.
Those are his opinions and he is entitled to them. Most of them have to deal with the fact that a trade is a good trade if both parties agree that they were better in the end. You on the other hand don't seem to want to accept that bit of freedom.
No one disputes the fact that a TRADE if both parties agree is not a valid thing. One can hardly compare that to a CEO of a company raking in 40 billion per year while laying off 20,000 employees. No CEO of ANY company is worth 40 million in salary. If you make a product and it sells like hotcakes you may earn that much but NOT at the expense of your employees.
quote:
Your view seems to be from each according to his ability, to each according to his need. I'm really sorry to tell you this, but that's been tried. It doesn't work.
No one has implied that here. You imply that anyone who doesn;t agree with YOUR conservative mantra is a therefore a commie.
quote:
Tell you what I think. I've been reading a lot here lately from people who think our nation is declining. If it is, it's because of people like you who want us to forget everything that made this nation great and change it into a feel good collectivist commune where competition is bad and achievement isn't celebrated, it's looked down on because winning isn't fair.
Tell you what I think. This nation is definitely declining. We defaulted on the very first payment of the interest of our loans about 1.5 years ago. So we're bankrupt. Our dollar is not worth the paper it is written on. The only reason it still represents something is because of the reserve currency. The world is smarting up and the Russians aren't going to sell their oil in dollars anymore. Absurd notion anyway. So all these dollars will come home and they represent what? Goods?? What goods do they represent. And all this nonsense was created by previous Administrations who kept printing them like drunken sailors. Conservatives have bled this country from the very beginning, but never as blatantly as during this Administration. There are none so blind as those who won't see.
quote:
This nation was built by rugged individuals with dreams and the freedom to pursue them. Not by people sitting on the sidelines with their hands out and signs saying the government should care for them because they can't care for themselves.
Yes commie talk again. It's a canard and it has been exposed for what it is.
quote:
You are ruining the country. Stop it.
It is people like you who refuse to see reality and believe in American mythology that are.
China/Japan and the EU are presently keeping this country afloat. They own all our paper. Anyone getting a mortgage does so courtesy of China. So just who are you kidding? Become informed. Read The Economist and weep!
Posts: 863 | Location: West Palm Beach, FL | Registered: 21 June 2007
Conservatives believe that people exist to serve the economy, not the other way around.
Bullshit. People exist because they exist, nothing more nothing less. If you want to give existence some mythical meaning fine. I won't tell you what to believe and having you constantly make up fantasies about what I believe is why I find you so irritating.
In the United States people live SOLELY to work and increase Corporate America's bottom line. In Europe people work in order to live.
Your beliefs are reflected in your writing. You impugn yourself with your conservative claptrap.
Posts: 863 | Location: West Palm Beach, FL | Registered: 21 June 2007
Originally posted by artlo: [QUOTE] This nation was built by rugged individuals with dreams and the freedom to pursue them. Not by people sitting on the sidelines with their hands out and signs saying the government should care for them because they can't care for themselves.
I though it was built by slaves who didn't have time for dreams.
Posts: 371 | Location: New York | Registered: 01 July 2007
So, Gerry, are you going to admit that employees are only hired by companies to make money for those companies? If you disagree, then please tell me what an employee is for.
I though it was built by slaves who didn't have time for dreams.
And yet another telling example of the difference in thought process. Some people have bought the lie that this country is basically evil and founded on slavery, oppression, greed, and murder.
When you start with a foundation like that, of course you are going to believe the country is off base.
So Annie...why don't you just move to Europe if you hate America so much?
I though it was built by slaves who didn't have time for dreams.
And yet another telling example of the difference in thought process. Some people have bought the lie that this country is basically evil and founded on slavery, oppression, greed, and murder.
When you start with a foundation like that, of course you are going to believe the country is off base.
So Annie...why don't you just move to Europe if you hate America so much?
Oh Orwell, Orwell, where are you? By the way, I live in New York where slavery which ended in 1827 (?) was followed by the Irish wage slavery and Lower East Side Triangles. What are my lies?
Posts: 371 | Location: New York | Registered: 01 July 2007
Originally posted by ProudCon: Annie, is this a fair characterization of your belief:
The USA is basically evil and founded on slavery, oppression, greed, and murder.
No, it's a total mis-characterization, particularly the first part. No, I don't think the USA is basically evil. I do have a problem with distortion of history, and non-historical presentation: immigrants came, worked hard and were successful - it was much, much, much more complicated and bloodier. To put simply - people who died don't tell their stories to their non-existing grandchildren.
Posts: 371 | Location: New York | Registered: 01 July 2007
Annie, is this a fair characterization of your belief:
The USA is basically evil and founded on slavery, oppression, greed, and murder.
A pretty poorly focused question. A country consists of its real estate, its infrastructure (both public and private), its government and the people who inhabit the country. Which part of "the USA" are you asking about?
Posts: 946 | Location: Newberg | Registered: 15 March 2006
Annie, is this a fair characterization of your belief:
The USA is basically evil and founded on slavery, oppression, greed, and murder.
A pretty poorly focused question. A country consists of its real estate, its infrastructure (both public and private), its government and the people who inhabit the country. Which part of "the USA" are you asking about?
Artlo, of course, I was thinking along the same lines.
Posts: 371 | Location: New York | Registered: 01 July 2007
Originally posted by ProudCon: So, Gerry, are you going to admit that employees are only hired by companies to make money for those companies? If you disagree, then please tell me what an employee is for.
This thread is about outsourcing, NOT about legitimate employment.
Let me tell you a story about what happened in Holland about 15 years ago. The high salaries priced products right out of the market which became dominated by low wage countries. The Government which oversees salaries (and rightly so - in order to prevent abuse) started talking to the Dutch Corporations. THEY in turn took the matter up with the whole workforce and the unions. Together, the workers and the employers came to an agreement to lower some of the salaries(still much higher than in the U.S.) in return for which employees were allowed to sit in on official board meetings, have their say, and became involved in anything dealing with the future of the company. No Government involvement, NO union involvement, contrary to what english sites report. It became known as "the Polder model" It became the envy of Europe. And was a huge success. Clinton was often overheard referring to "the 3rd way" when speaking of employment and wages.....he was referring to the "Polder model" as an extremely powerful tool to increase employment and production. It benefitted everyone. The problem here is that wages are too low to be cut.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Gerry,
Posts: 863 | Location: West Palm Beach, FL | Registered: 21 June 2007
Gerry, this thread is about whatever the participants want it to be. If you wish to answer my question in another thread, maybe I will do that. I have a feeling you aren't going to answer it no matter where I post.
I though it was built by slaves who didn't have time for dreams.
Another characterization of lefties around here is stating things like this, then playing the old "Who, ME?" innocence game.
In the sentence above you stated without reservation that "the nation" was "built by slaves".
Quite a sweeping statement, Annie, so it's a bit disingenious to then come back with "Gosh, what do you mean? You are mischaracterizing me."
YOU should answer which part of the building of America you meant. Do you mean economically only? Do you mean insititutionally? Infrastructure? Education? Religion? Government?
No matter which part you meant, it was a sweeping statement that ignores basically 99% of the nuances and tenants of how America was "built" and who was responsible. Your statements reflect your background, your education, your thought process and your IQ. So unless you want challenges like I presented to you, maybe you had better think things out more before you type.
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