ABORTION: Catholics may not have an abortion. Catholics may offer maternity aide to assist a mother who may otherwise have an abortion.
Catholics may not assist in abortion. Catholics can support many social policies that may reduce its occurrence.
Catholics may not suggest an abortion. Catholics may offer advice and assist in adoption if the child is carried to term.
TAKING OF HUMAN LIFE Catholics may defend themselves with a force equal to force if attacked. Catholics may not instigate an attack.
Catholics may defend an innocent from attack. Catholics may never attack an innocent.
DRUG ADDICTION. Catholics may not take unprescribed addictive drugs. Catholics may not refuse acts of corporal mercy to an addict. Catholics may not deny shelter to an addict. Catholics may not deny food to an addict. Catholics may not deny medical care to an addict. Catholics may not deny any basic need to an addict. Catholics may not deny compassion to an addict.
WAR: Catholics may not attack another country unless that country first provokes an attack on them. Catholics may not take civilian life even in war. Prisoners of war are to be treated the same as someone of their own parish church, and incarceration is allowed for their protection and that of the host country until hostilities cease.
MEDICAL CARE: Catholics may deny no one medical care. Catholics will try to provide medical care for everyone who needs it.
FOOD; Catholics may deny no one food. Catholics will try to see that everyone is fed adequately.
SHELTER: Catholic may never deny anyone shelter. Catholics will do everything they can to see that everyone has adequate shelter.
SIN Catholics may NOT focus on the sins of another. Catholics thru introspection will use every endeavor to notice their own shortcomings. Members of the clergy and consecrated may point to church teachings when a catholic is in grave error.
CAPITAL PUNISHMENT It is forbidden if a prison exists where the offender can safely be incarcerated with no means of escape.
THEFT: Catholics may not steal unless it is the only means to preserve a human life. Restitution should be made as soon as possible.
EDUCATION: Every endeavor should be made to educate every person to the full extent of their capabilities for the good of society and the church.
OPTION FOR THE POOR: Church teachings will show an option for the poor, and especially in those instances where through no fault of their own or due to the policies of their governments, their plight is brought to the attention of the church.
Retired Monk
Posts: 3412 | Location: denver co | Registered: 17 April 2007
Originally posted by GG: polycarp, did you write the list of Catholic teachings and is it your position that I violate these teachings?
Check your catachism. I do want people who read these forums to know what the church teaches whenever you mis-represent her.
You do go against church teachings when you support the current war.
Pope John Paul didn't issue a word about Afghanistan. It was justified. Iraq.... No justification based on church Dogma. It is immoral, wrong, illegal. You oppose irreversible teachings of the church in this matter.
It was wordly right wing catholics GG, who brought about the great schism in the church nearly 1,000 years ago. It has never been reconciled to this day. Orthodox vs. Catholic.
The wordly conservatives of the church sacked the Great Catheral of St. Sophia in Constantinople (now Istanbul). They pillaged the city, weakened the empire, and paved the way for Muslim domination.
St. Sophia was the grandest in the world...even surpassing St. Peter's. Now it is a Muslim mosque.
The Orthodox too, have apostolic succession. Though the catholic church recognizes their Sacraments as valid...they do not recognize ours. They call us heretics for what we have done. For what worldy Right wing catholics have done in the name of Christ.
It was the worldy conservative wing of the church that did this GG. They brought about the great schism. Whenever worldy right wing catholics defy church teachings, they bring destruction of the church in their wake. They have split christianity in half. What next? Does St. Peter's have to crumble to the ground before right wing catholics wake up?
Perhaps it is the word "conservative" that confuses you. "Conservative" in a religious sense alone, would refer to a catholic who adheres rigidly to the teachings of the church.
When a conservative catholic holds conservative views outside of the church, in the political world, their views tend to oppose the church.
A conservative catholic, in church sense is a liberal. They have to be in order to adhere to the teachings. The teachings seldom support conservative political views. (Abortion one of only a few exceptions and most conservative politicians take the postion just to get the vote).
Conservative catholics that pillaged St. Sophia, were conservative in worldly thought, and not conservative in church thought. They did not adhere to centuries-old teachings.
There have always been two wings of the church. Left and right. The left focuses on the teachings of Christ. The right very rigid and concerned about "laws".Lliberal: (generous, of the heart) vs. conservative (strict, heart is secondary). And all catholics are called upon to be Conservative in the religious sense...adhere to the teachings. The liberal/conservative debate is for the bishops. Their debates encourage introspection and looking inward towards their own hearts.
To be a true conservative catholic (adhere to the teachings) in the world you find you must be liberal in thought.
I'm not Roman catholic, because I am very conservative (in the religious sense). My liturgy is older than yours....by nearly 1,000 years. I just couldn't accept the modern changes made even that long ago, let alone Vatican II.
Retired Monk
To be a true conservative catholic (adhere to the teachings) in the world you find you must be liberal in thought.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: polycarp,
Posts: 3412 | Location: denver co | Registered: 17 April 2007
The teachings seldom support conservative political views. (Abortion one of only a few exceptions and most conservative politicians take the postion just to get the vote).
MOST conservative - - you say? The democrats who won last Nov.'s election made voters believe they were conservative. Now they are having difficulties upholding their conservative rhetoric. It is only those who are and live conservatism that will survive in the political arena. Think about it, polycarp. The democrats have contracepted and aborted their own and now need ILLegals to bail them out. They're following the way of the Europeans and fail to see that immigration will never, and does not replace the loss of one's own progeny.
You CANNOT give an example of a conservative (you are really stretching here!!) who needs to support planned baronhood and NARAL in order to win elections. Morality is legislated. If any pOLE tician won their election by coming along side of the death culture, they must openly admit their error. If you think for one minute that I believe a COnSERVATIVE needs to give appearance of approving abortions, in order to win elections than that is NO political figure I would ever support nor would many other informed voters. We have REp. Sen. Collins a self claimed Catholic in Maine who has not once opposed the 47 MILLION slaughtered to date. Democrats NEVER allow support for the unborn to have a voice. In fact the democrat party EXPECTs jackboot, goosesteppin' compliance ONLY.
I have a great admiration for Joe Lieberman, whom democrats have renounced inspite of his faithfulness to the democrat party. He has it right on the Iraqi war (democrats shun him for this) but he considers abortion a necessity. How shameful for a husband, father, and politician to stand of this platform. He would never get my vote.
quote:
A conservative catholic, in church sense is a liberal.
The Roman Catholic Church is both Traditional and progressive,polycarp. It is not static but continuously moving forward into each new generation with a deeper understanding and improved expression of what the Church teaches and explanation of truth. This is an area to expand upon sometime.
You have fallen for the rhetoric of the democrat party, which first of all is rooted in liberalism without constraint. It is no longer the party of the 60's and the Kennedy administration. It no long adheres to conservative wholesome protection of the dignity of personhood values. You know as well as I they join to the hip of abortion providers incorp. and have implemented the huge expansive social go no where programs that strap American tax payers. THey oppose tax relief or refund when it has been proven that tax refunding expands the economy. Democrats dig deep and want to dig deeper into the pockets of Americans and both parties want ILLegals to bail out soon to go defunct social security, medicare and other programs all the while increasing more socialized programs that strap the American tax payers. That's how I see it, polycarp. Democrats do not give dignity to Americans to decide for themselves what they will support. But than I've gotten into politics and should stick with "Catholic teaching". It's hard to separate, is it not? Our consciences are to be formed by the Church and we are to live it accordingly and NEVER be separated from it.
quote:
Conservative catholics that pillaged St. Sophia, were conservative in worldly thought, and not conservative in church thought. They did not adhere to centuries-old teachings.
I'm not familiar with St. Sophia and these things you claim.
I'm very confused on your claim to be conservative by your faith practices, yet have such a disconnect in you public voice. I think you are straddling the fence.
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
Check your catachism. I do want people who read these forums to know what the church teaches whenever you mis-represent her.
polycarp, I am open to correction of what the Church teaches and I am always pursuing added depth.
I do intend to "spoon feed" if necessary the fact that Pope John Paul II did not declare the Iraqi War to be immoral. I've been doing my homework. Do you want the references? Are you interested? IMO, you've loosely coined that phrase as a weapon against me, I think, defending your own political liberal views (disconnecting from your Catholic faith.)
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
Check your catachism. I do want people who read these forums to know what the church teaches whenever you mis-represent her.
polycarp, I am open to correction of what the Church teaches and I am always pursuing added depth.
I do intend to "spoon feed" if necessary the fact that Pope John Paul II did not declare the Iraqi War to be immoral. I've been doing my homework. Do you want the references? Are you interested? IMO, you've loosely coined that phrase as a weapon against me, I think, defending your own political liberal views (disconnecting from your Catholic faith.)
GG, Pope John Paul did declare the Iraq war immoral, unjustified and illegal. Ask your priest...you border on heresey if you call yourself catholic and continue in this line. You HAVE disconnected from your cathoic faith. You may hold your views, and you may not use any reference to the church whatsoever in expounding them. They must be held private until Reconcilliation.
If it were known in my church (loyal to the papacy) what you were doing, you would be denied Communion. That is a fact.
You bring dishonor and shame to the church with nearly every posting you make. You have absolutely no grasp of her teachings. Your own ideology blinds you to them. You twist the teachings to support everything the church stands against.
The only area of agreement with the church that I have seen is your stand against abortion...and you twist even this and use it to go against church teachings in every other arena.
Talk to your priest, enter catachism if need be. Stop your hereterical rants. (YES, HERESEY!) Or, send copies of your postings to your bishop. Sign them with name, address and parish...and wait for the axe of EX-COMMUNICATION to fall.
Retired Monk
Posts: 3412 | Location: denver co | Registered: 17 April 2007
"...Western civilization stands indebted to the Church for the university system, charitable work, international law, the sciences, and, important legal principles. … Western civilization owes far more to the Catholic Church than most people — Catholic included — often realize. … The Church, in fact, built Western civilization."
...Our world is fascinated and driven by technological progress, so readers are likely to find especially interesting Woods' explanation of how modern science gained its original impetus from Catholic theology. Woods writes:
"The Catholic Church's alleged hostility toward science may be her greatest debit in the popular mind. The one-sided version of the Galileo affair with which most people are familiar is very largely to blame for the widespread belief that the Church has obstructed the advance of scientific inquiry. ..
Woods convincingly argues that modern experimental science started in the late Middle Ages due to the Christian belief that God created the world ex nihil (from nothing) and that there is an "order" in the universe that can gradually known by men..." _____________
Significant is international/Western law grew out of Church canon law and most specifically the Crucifixion, and what the Church has done for the protection of women more than any other organization.
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
If it were known in my church (loyal to the papacy) what you were doing, you would be denied Communion. That is a fact.
Wow...
quote:
Originally posted by GG:
The democrats who won last Nov.'s election made voters believe they were conservative. Now they are having difficulties upholding their conservative rhetoric.
As opposed to what, the loser of the elections made voters believe that he had won and they had voted in favor of him (and their votes counted) when he pronounced himself president? Followed by a stack of lies made up in order to invade Iraq and making the voters believe they were and are in great danger from this country?
Really GG, I didn't know people could actually be this gullible... thanks for giving me this insight.
Posts: 140 | Location: Universe | Registered: 07 January 2007
Hi ariel23, You're absolutely correct that the JPII and Pope Benedict XVI have not wanted war to break out in the mid east. The Pope has a duty to speak out against war and injustice.
The Vatican has been a consistent opponent of the invasion of Iraq.
Likewise Pope Benedict deplores the catastrophic situation in Darfur and the violence in Congo, Somalia and Zimbabwe. Neither Pope has called the war immoral because the Church distances itself from its political past and sticks to the business of the salvation of souls always speaking for peaceful solutions.
Pope Benedict XVI is the lone voice that condemns the use of religion as a justification for violence and war. You'll not see that in headlines because the BBC and other news services fear retaliation. Islam's law and its intention to kill the infidels and rule the world will not be read in headlines.
It has become very interesting to me how many want to USE the Catholic Church, but not for faith and morals conscience formation, only as a tool.
Terrorism is a threat to human civilization.
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
Really GG, I didn't know people could actually be this gullible... thanks for giving me this insight.
The headlines of your sources are not the words actually spoken by JPII and our current Pope, but the insistent misleading words of the writers. The words you have NOT heard from the Vatican is that the war is unjust and is evil.
The Vatican understands that the Iraqi regime refused to cooperate to bring peace and it is the lack of ability to bring a peaceful resolution by the UN that a peaceful solution was not going to happen. Infact we have discovered extreme corruption with the UN and other nations.
We will not hear the words by the Holy See to endorse the war, but neither has the Holy See condemned the U.S., Britan and allies as evil and sinful. Pope Benedict has spoken that war threatens humanity. Peace is the only way to build a more just and unified society. War never resolves problems. That means - -
war is not the desired goal or ultimate solution, but SOMETIMES in the face of tyranny and evil, war is a necessary solution.
Sadly, as long as we live in a fallen world such is the case. The Vatican will not stop the plea for seeking peaceful solutions. Peaceful solutions will not happen, however, if one does not root out the problems and face the reality of aggressive intentions.
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
fisherman - I think you brought it up about the teaching of limbo in the Catholic Church and thought you might find this very interesting.
quote:
Notion of Limbo Isn't Closed, Expert Says Adds It's a Theological Opinion That Can Be Defended
ROME, MAY 3, 2007 (Zenit.org).- The theory of limbo is not ruled out, says a member of the International Theological Commission, commenting on a study from the panel.
Sister Sara Butler, a Missionary Servant of the Most Blessed Trinity, has served on the commission since 2004. The commission is an advisory body comprised of 30 theologians chosen by the Pope. Its documents are not considered official expressions of the magisterium, but the commission does help the Holy See to examine important doctrinal issues.
On April 20, the commission released a document, commissioned under Pope John Paul II, called "The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptized." Benedict XVI approved it for publication.
In an interview with Inside the Vatican magazine, Sister Butler, who teaches dogmatic theology at St. Joseph's Seminary in Yonkers, New York, says "the report concludes that limbo remains a 'possible theological opinion.' Anyone who wants to defend it is free to do so. This document, however, tries to give a theological rationale for hoping that unbaptized infants may be saved."
"The [International Theological Commission] wants to give more weight to God's universal salvific will and to solidarity in Christ than to the necessity of baptism, which is not absolute but is qualified in certain ways," she said.
Principles of faith
Sister Butler cited No. 41 of the document: "[B]esides the theory of limbo -- which remains a possible theological option -- there can be other ways to integrate and safeguard the principles of faith outlined in Scripture."
She added: "The commission is trying to say what the Catechism of the Catholic Church -- Nos. 1260, 1261, 1283 -- has already said: that we have a right to hope that God will find a way to offer the grace of Christ to infants who have no opportunity for making a personal choice with regard to their salvation."
The document "is trying to provide a theological rationale for what has already been proposed in several magisterial documents since the council," Sister Butler said. "Generally, the [commission] documents offer a point of reference for bishops and theology professors in seminaries, for example, to offer an explanation for the development of doctrine.
"But I doubt whether this would lead to a further statement from the magisterium, because it says no more than what has already been said in the [Catechism], in the funeral rites for infants who have died without baptism in the 1970 Roman Missal, and in 'Pastoralis Actio' -- the document from 1980 from the [Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith] on the baptism of infants.
"It says nothing new; it is simply trying to make explicit the theological grounding for this hope. 'Gaudium et Spes,' 22, and 'Lumen Gentium,' 14 and 16, at the Second Vatican Council, opened the way for this development. Actually, some wanted the teaching on limbo formally defined at the council, but the topic was excluded from the agenda."
Extra-sacramental gift
The theological commission's document, she said, "just indicates that given our understanding of God's mercy and the plan of salvation which includes Christ and the gift of the Holy Spirit in the Church, we dare to hope that these infants will be saved by some extra-sacramental gift of Christ."
"We do not know what the destiny of these children is," she said, "but we have grounds for hope."
Sister Butler spoke of the plight of aborted babies.
"I'm sure we never considered suggesting that these infants be declared martyrs," she said. "We were, of course, aware that in many places Catholics remember the unborn babies who have been aborted on the feast of the Holy Innocents. We didn't propose a solution."
She added: "In this particular instance, death is the way these children might be united with Christ: Through the violent circumstances of their deaths, they may be united to his paschal mystery.
"The Council explicitly taught that God provides a way of salvation for those who are invincibly ignorant of the Gospel and therefore have no access to sacramental baptism.
"The [commission] report extends the logic of this teaching to infants. We suggest that the Holy Spirit offers to them, in a way known to God, the possibility of being made partakers in the paschal mystery."
Sister Butler nevertheless warned that "the ordinary means of salvation is baptism, and that infants should be baptized; Catholic parents have a serious obligation."
"God is not bound to the sacraments," she said, "and therefore, just as we understand there are other possible ways for adults who are in invincible ignorance of the Gospel to achieve salvation, so we presume there are other ways, known to God, open to infants who unfortunately die without baptism." ZE07050301
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
Journalist report that the Vatican endorses the antiwar movement, and they are wrong. The Vatican endorses peace, always has and always will.
Journalists are over reacting and claiming the Holy See has condemned the U.S. It is emotions that distort understanding of where the Holy Father stands, and what has been and is actually being said.
All of human civilization must lament war and urge that war not be seen as a normal or desired solution to political problems. Both democrats AND republicans knew that a prudential judgement was made to invade Iraq. They, democrats, are on record with their declarations, with their very signatures, but the media wants and supports "politically blinded by power ambitions", and desires that Americans and others forget their pro-invasion endorsement.
One again, the Holy Father, in very carefully worded statements, has not condemned the U.S. actions, nor does he simply endorse the antiwar movement. I bet he is appalled by most of the anti-American/anti-Bush rhetoric. It encourages Islamic lawless nations' aggression that is dangerous to all civilization.
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
The majority of the Bush Administration was willing to challenge the Middle East and its growing threat to the world. Convinced by 9-11 , a pivotal moment, Congress agreed terrorists must be stopped from killing anymore Americans. These killings had been going on for 20 years.
Intelligence agencies were deliberately prevented from working together to keep Americans safe.
Who would have thought that liberalism would go so far as to make a moral and political case against removing maniacs who saw off limbs & heads, who rape 7 year old girls and throw them away, who stone women, hang women from cranes, gas their own people, emasculate little boys and force women and children to strap on bombs. The consequences will be significant if Americans fail to fight the advancements of terrorism.
Pres. Bush has admitted to mistakes as is made in all wars. And Pres. Bush has failed to keep American citizens properly informed regularly on what is going on. Most Americans (and other nations) only hear the biased interpreted filtered versions of news net works. It is treasonous what these same net works will not report. If it's bad for America, the democrats feel they are winning. Good news of incremental progress in Iraq is NOT good news for Democrats.
All except Islamic Law believers want peace in the world. Moral reasoning and politics of peace in our conflict-ridden world is the point we are at in how to deal with a giant threatening power that does not want to reason peaceful solutions.
Aggressors of Islamic law are rejoicing in the regrets of those formerly in agreement to invade Iraq. They now consider the war to be unjust and immoral, and ill advised. Hindsight quarterbacking, don't you think? How many of us wouldn't have made some decisions in our lives if we had foreknowledge of the outcome.
I've once again have strayed in too much from thread topic of Catholic teaching. Sorry. But I do have more to post in regards to what the Vatican is saying about the Iraqi war and what you will not hear in mainstream media since that seems to be the heart of this thread, I think, and using the Catholic Church as a weapon and not as a spiritual advisor.
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
Teachings have nothing to do with what others do. Only with what you do.
You are not to support an unjustified war as defined by the Dogma of the church, anymore than you are to committ murder in defiance of Dogma just because your neighbor did.
Pope John Paul did declare this war immoral, illegal and unjustified. Do a Google search. "pope john paul Iraq War". His statements appear in numerous places including "Catholic Worker". Read them yourself.
Church teachings have nothing to do with what others do. Only with what you do. It is that simple.
If you focus on what others do, or might do...it will prevent you from following the teachings of Christ and the church. That is the grave error Fundamentalist Protestantss have made. It has given birth to hatreds and devisivness among peoples....not love.
Teachings have only to do with what YOU do.
Retired Monk
Posts: 3412 | Location: denver co | Registered: 17 April 2007
You are not to support an unjustified war as defined by the Dogma of the church, anymore than you are to committ murder in defiance of Dogma just because your neighbor did.
JPII and the current Pope NEVER defined the Iraqi war as immoral or unjust! That is a figment of reporters interpretation. They came up with the headlines of condemnation and these ARE NOT the words of the popes or the teachings of the Church and no Dogma/or doctrine has been violated. Do these same reporters talk about the war against the families and the nations collapsing because of population dirth? If there was a consistency of agreement with what the Catholic Church teaches than I would have a respect for the articles that ariel23 referenced today.
Warnings by the Church, "NATIONS ARE COLLAPSING BECAUSE MEN AND WOMEN ARE NOT WILLING TO SACRIFICE" will never be reported in these same columns. Yet these are they very warnings coming not only from Rome but the United Nations is recognizing this grave threat. These columnists will misconstrue to their hearts content what is politically savvy and you believe what they report, they who hate the Catholic Church???
The Hole See recognizes that governments have a grave responsibility to keep citizens of their country safe. You are not in agreement with the current status of the Catholic Church, yet dare to use it against a Catholic to support your political posture? How strange is that ?
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
"It has become very interesting to me how many want to USE the Catholic Church, but not for faith and morals conscience formation, only as a tool."
are you aware you are one of them GG? even when confronted with the fact that PJPII declared the iraq war didnt fit the "just war" criteria, you still deny he even said that. are you attempting to start your own religion or something? because you are certainly breaking from catholic doctrine.
and i could care less about limbo. it was a made up idea to get more catholics into the churches. you know, baby dies and goes to limbo if its not baptized. so all the naive (like you) people rush to get their children baptized to save them from this horrible Limbo land.
------------------------------------------ debating conservatives is easy. so easy, even a caveman can do it!
"if this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck lot easier, just so long as im the dictator" -GWB Dec 18,2002
Posts: 1614 | Location: ft myers florida area | Registered: 23 September 2006
The Hole See recognizes that governments have a grave responsibility to keep citizens of their country safe. You are not in agreement with the current status of the Catholic Church, yet dare to use it against a Catholic to support your political posture? How strange is that ?
GG, you are never in agreement with catholic teachings either, yet claim to be a follower. the only catholic position you are true is the abortion one. other than that, you contrdict catholic doctine with every idiotic claim.
you are to the catholic religion as the terrorists are to islam. hurting the very same religion you are supposedly promoting.
------------------------------------------ debating conservatives is easy. so easy, even a caveman can do it!
"if this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck lot easier, just so long as im the dictator" -GWB Dec 18,2002
Posts: 1614 | Location: ft myers florida area | Registered: 23 September 2006
