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quote: This thread makes no sense to me.
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| Posts: 7939 | Location: Santa Barbara | Registered: 19 July 2005 | |
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quote: Originally posted by Ronald Rutherford: quote: This thread makes no sense to me.
Writing style guide: tone
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"if you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got."
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| Posts: 6804 | Location: usa | Registered: 09 February 2006 | |
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quote: Originally posted by --Kate: Writing style guide: tone
TONE When we speak, our words account for only a portion of the message we convey. Our meaning is also interpreted through our body language and eye contact, as well as the intonation, pitch and speed of our voice. All affect the meaning of what we say. **Hello Kate - This reminded me of a dialogue I had on another site where some people were suggesting that online communication was 'incomplete', because it was missing the body language part of the message. I agree that the body language can change what is conveyed in a message, but I question that it actually changes the meaning of the statement that it relates to...'generally speaking'. For example, let's say that someone says: "I'm for Free Trade." How would body language change the 'meaning' of this statement? What if the person was jumping up and down and screaming the message: "I'm for Free Trade!" The screaming & jumping 'add' the additional meaning of: "I'm passionate" about Free Trade. But the non-verbal doesn't change the general meaning of the statement, it just adds some clues about how the person feels about what they are saying...to my observation. The non-verbal can also give us clues about whether the person is joking or is sincere. If I wish to give similar clues, or 'added meaning' online I simply have to do this:  or this:  to convey the missing non-verbal communication. Granted, there are limits to doing this online, but my point is that the statement "I'm for Free Trade" conveys the same message online or face-to-face, with or without the non-verbal - 'added meaning'. The non-verbal communication seems to be largely 'ego-related' information. It tells us whether our ego is 'safe', or whether we think we can trust that the other person is being truthful, or whether we think they're trying to take advantage of us. But these clues don't change the meaning of a statement they go with, they mostly give us clues about whether the person means what they are suggesting, or not. That's my observation anyway. Regards - Howard
"Thought works by conditioning. It has to get conditioned. You need conditioning to learn a language, to learn how to write, or to do all sorts of things. When the conditioning gets too rigid, though, it won't change when it should." - David Bohm
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| Posts: 1211 | Location: Southern California | Registered: 16 August 2002 | |
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quote: Howard: This reminded me of a dialogue I had on another site where some people were suggesting that online communication was 'incomplete', because it was missing the body language part of the message.
That's interesting, as well as your development of what's missing when we lack body language. Still, word choice is all we have in a message board environment, and I think it's critical to pay attention to it. I've been searching for a collection of strongly negatively nuanced words, and I've not found it, so I figured this is as good a place as any to start putting one together, because I read them almost on a daily basis here. Word choice is also interesting in the headlines of the major newspapers. You think you're reading something objective when you read a newspaper, but headlines with attitudinal word choice demonstrate there's a clear point of view. Anyway, I started this thread because Tone is all we have to replace the body language you discuss in your post.
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"if you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got."
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| Posts: 6804 | Location: usa | Registered: 09 February 2006 | |
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Smarmy -- Under the right combination of circumstances, smarmy could be the sign of an obsequious authoritarian, the tone of a middle manager, almost never that of the Big Boss. Often it can be a tone taken on by a crypto-troll or a sock puppet. A careful observer will find just a little bit of an authority in it, enough to be irritating, but it will also be ingratiating enough to get by as a pretense of respect to confound the board authorities, thus "crypto" -- or hidden -- troll. But also, seething underneath, are tweaks of sensations of all sorts of unfulfilled inadequacies. In reading the words you will feel them and recognize the feelings as a tenseness in the abdomen that comes with unfulfilled expectations. Another characteristic in this tonal quality is a general sense of inarticulateness in an inherently unimaginative word play and a deadeningly repetitive and linear rationality. Sometimes a mirroring effect of others' phrases will be used, but often inappropriately, and usually without accurate parallels to the original intent that would complete the mirror because a true sense of analogy tends to be absent, since -- or perhaps the reason why -- an interest in literature was never kindled. Thus the mirroring comes out more like a carnival funhouse mirror maze.
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| Posts: 3997 | Location: Road Prison 36 | Registered: 05 February 2004 | |
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quote: Originally posted by Ronald Rutherford:
You have some good points Howard. But let me pose two aspects that you may have missed.
First, have you ever had a dog. True most communication is on an emotional level, but you can talk to the dog in different ways and he interprets them differently. Even the same words can mean different things to the dog.
Secondly is infliction, I am sure you have seen a sentence change meaning when certain words are emphasized or not. We can overcome this I guess by italics, bolds and CAPS but still imprecise and not readily understandable.
Ron - Yes, I've had a couple dogs. Not currently though. And sure, to a dog, words don't convey the same meanings that they do to humans who tend to know the general word meanings, so the tone becomes much more important. But I'm not talking about conversing with animals, nor am I making any sort of 'all-inclusive' type of statement. Regarding inflection, that's true, that's also frequently missing in online conversation. But we can put things in bold print or quotes if we wish to give it emphasis. My main point is that the non-verbal is mostly about how people 'feel' about something, and not generally related to the accuracy of a suggestion that's made. If I suggest that "right-wing policies are devastating the 'general welfare' of most Americans," it won't affect the accuracy of the statement whether I'm smiling, jumping up and down, frowning, sweating, shaking, or whatever. I'm suggesting that not having the non-verbal clues doesn't really hinder a meaningful dialogue. In fact, the non-verbal is often a distraction away from the subject matter. One of the first things I noticed when I was trying to understand human communication was that people, in general, want to know right up front - 'where a person is coming from'? They want to know if the person 'cares' about them, or whether the person is just trying to get something from them or waste their time. If they think the person is honest and caring, they're more likely to give attention. To make this determination we seem to rely heavily on the non-verbal clues. But to have a meaningful exchange of life perspectives, I feel, we don't need to expect each person to look or feel a particular way in order to be part of the conversation. But that's what we frequently seem to do. For example, some people reject views outright if they perceive the other person as some particular biased stereotype. ----------------------------------------------
"Thought works by conditioning. It has to get conditioned. You need conditioning to learn a language, to learn how to write, or to do all sorts of things. When the conditioning gets too rigid, though, it won't change when it should." - David Bohm
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| Posts: 1211 | Location: Southern California | Registered: 16 August 2002 | |
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quote:
That's interesting, as well as your development of what's missing when we lack body language. Still, word choice is all we have in a message board environment, and I think it's critical to pay attention to it.
**Makes sense to me. quote:
I've been searching for a collection of strongly negatively nuanced words, and I've not found it, so I figured this is as good a place as any to start putting one together, because I read them almost on a daily basis here.
Word choice is also interesting in the headlines of the major newspapers. You think you're reading something objective when you read a newspaper, but headlines with attitudinal word choice demonstrate there's a clear point of view.
**I guess I basically see the word choice as a reflection of the persons perspective. Paying attention to the 'word nuance' is part of what I call 'paying attention to what thought is doing'. The first 'negatively nuanced' word that usually comes to my mind is: greed. Basically, I take it as a 'given' that each person has some degree of bias in the beliefs being expressed. What interests me more personally is whether there's an interest in observing how these 'thoughts' are affecting our behavior & relationships. Or perhaps observing 'the lack of good relationship' that results from the 'negative nuances'. Nuances like: left-winger, right-winger, fundamentalist, Moslem, protester, and all the other words that divide and fragment humans. quote:
Anyway, I started this thread because Tone is all we have to replace the body language you discuss in your post.
**Sounds intersting, but interpreting someone else's tone seems highly speculative. Plus, it seems to be one of the main ways that we humans create unnecessary division. I think it's quite informative to observe word nuance, but when it starts to interfere with a meaningful exchange of views, I feel it then becomes counterproductive. -----------------------------------------------
"Thought works by conditioning. It has to get conditioned. You need conditioning to learn a language, to learn how to write, or to do all sorts of things. When the conditioning gets too rigid, though, it won't change when it should." - David Bohm
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| Posts: 1211 | Location: Southern California | Registered: 16 August 2002 | |
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Hi, Howard- I think the perspective of the reader is what Tone is all about. I think a civilized conversation pays attention to measuring tone, to accommodate the reader. Kate
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"if you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got."
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| Posts: 6804 | Location: usa | Registered: 09 February 2006 | |
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rant[ing] Interesting word, with a different connotation, depending on the word that precedes it. " My rant" ... is self-deprecating and relatively harmless in the sense of "good tonal message," except, perhaps to the writer's projection of the writer's self. If it's said by someone in a position of authority, it's a friendly tone, because it's surprising to see one in authority acknowledge a rant. " Thom's rant" ... is something Sue posts from time to time, and it's similar to "my rant" in the sense that Sue works with Thom and speaks on his behalf. Your rant[ing] is a negative use of the term that is unattractive for any writer to use. It demonstrates emotionality emanating from the writer, and an attempt to project that emotionality on the reader.
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"if you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got."
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| Posts: 6804 | Location: usa | Registered: 09 February 2006 | |
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quote: Originally posted by /rén:
Smarmy -- Under the right combination of circumstances, smarmy could be the sign of an obsequious authoritarian, the tone of a middle manager, almost never that of the Big Boss. Often it can be a tone taken on by a crypto-troll or a sock puppet. A careful observer will find just a little bit of an authority in it, enough to be irritating, but it will also be ingratiating enough to get by as a pretense of respect to confound the board authorities, thus "crypto" -- or hidden -- troll. But also, seething underneath, are tweaks of sensations of all sorts of unfulfilled inadequacies. In reading the words you will feel them and recognize the feelings as a tenseness in the abdomen that comes with unfulfilled expectations. Another characteristic in this tonal quality is a general sense of inarticulateness in an inherently unimaginative word play and a deadeningly repetitive and linear rationality. Sometimes a mirroring effect of others' phrases will be used, but often inappropriately, and usually without accurate parallels to the original intent that would complete the mirror because a true sense of analogy tends to be absent, since -- or perhaps the reason why -- an interest in literature was never kindled. Thus the mirroring comes out more like a carnival funhouse mirror maze.
Tone? |
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| Posts: 7939 | Location: Santa Barbara | Registered: 19 July 2005 | |
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quote: unimaginative
is not a very friendly tonal word, but, as with anything else, it depends on the context. In a statement of abstract propositions on the subject of Tone, it will have one sort of neutral sense. In a statement directed to a known and identifiable reader, it will have a more negative sense.
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"if you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got."
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| Posts: 6804 | Location: usa | Registered: 09 February 2006 | |
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