And I think that it's so important that, number one, we have models of what it's like to have civil conversation in the United States because so much has become gotcha. It has so devolved to gotcha. You know, when John Stewart made his comment on Crossfire about "you guys are harming America" because it's all about, you know, 'my talking points v. your talking points', that kind of thing. And it's like not a healthy place to go, frankly, in my opinion. So I think that number one, we need some kind of role model for reasonable dialogue where there's not blood on the floor when we're all done, where we can still be friends, still be human beings to each other afterwards.
And secondly, that engaging people in debate and dialog, in my mind, it's not even about winning, ultimately. My goal, and I do this almost every day - debate conservatives on this program - my goal isn't so much to trash them or make them look stupid or silly or anything like that. And if anything I want them to, you know, share humanity with me. My goal is to highlight the issues; the real issues, not the, you know, who's smarter or not smarter, who's got the better talking points or not; the real issues so that our listeners can understand the relative points of view and make up their own mind about, you know, where they stand on these issues.
Now obviously I will share my take on every single issue; I mean, that's the whole point of it. But I think that it's an important and healthy thing that we need to be doing so that's why, and in fact, since, in the last week or so, I've picked up from Al Franken, we've picked up a bunch of new radio stations on the programme and people who haven't heard that before, I've gotten a few emails from people going, you know, 'what are you doing here, Thom? You're putting conservatives on the radio'. Well, the reason why is cause this is the conversation, in my opinion, that America needs to be having. We need to be having these kind of conversations, and we need to be having them in a rational way that actually talks about the issues, not 'Oh you idiot!', right? So.
Sue N.
Posts: 4624 | Location: UK | Registered: 16 November 2004
Speaking as a conservative, I've always found it's really no challenge debating liberals. You simply ask them to live by the standards they demand of everyone else and the debate ends. For example, Al Gore bemoans excess energy use but flies around in a private jet and has a house 10 times the normal size. He has his but he wants everyone else to live limited usage lives. John Edwards talks about two America's yet he lives on a lavish estate far in excess of what he needs. He could have built 100 homes for the poor with the fortune he spent on his estate, never mind the excess energy use but again, he has his. Thom Hartmann wants to control what other employers pay their employees yet he won't let others decide what he pays his employees. Are they union, no. Do they have paid maternity leave, no. Do they have paid family leave, no. Simple yet constant liberal hypocrisy. I could go on but it's too easy. Forget about the fact that liberals screamed about Representative Foley yet they can't wait to showcase the known child predator Scott Ridder. Ridder was busted twice for luring 13 year old girls to watch him masturbate. Sick, but not too sick for liberals since he's a Bush critic. I know why people are mad Thom debates conservatives, it's because these truths I tell are inconvenient. Sound familiar. Grow up and clean your hypocrisy laden houses liberals.
The Ombudsman
Posts: 12 | Location: arizona | Registered: 08 January 2007
I think you miss the point that about a civil debate between disparate ideologies. In the interest of not letting misinformation/disinformation stand I'll take your bait.
quote:
Originally posted by jrudi: Speaking as a conservative, I've always found it's really no challenge debating liberals. You simply ask them to live by the standards they demand of everyone else and the debate ends. For example, Al Gore bemoans excess energy use but flies around in a private jet and has a house 10 times the normal size.
Al Gore is just some one with notoriety shedding light on an issue. There are plenty of principled environmentalists around. I don't consider Al Gore to be a liberal, he's a moderate to conservative Southern Democrat... I take it you're not a social conservative? Remember what Jesus said about he who has not sinned casting the first stone.
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John Edwards talks about two America's yet he lives on a lavish estate far in excess of what he needs. He could have built 100 homes for the poor with the fortune he spent on his estate, never mind the excess energy use but again, he has his.
He grew up in a working class family (progressives believe in having the opportunity to raise oneself out of his/her social class at birth, I'm sorry if you don't agree), he made his money off tort laws that the Republican Party wants to eviscerate. You embarrass yourself with your 'logic'.
quote:
Thom Hartmann wants to control what other employers pay their employees yet he won't let others decide what he pays his employees. Are they union, no. Do they have paid maternity leave, no. Do they have paid family leave, no. Simple yet constant liberal hypocrisy.
Small business often can't provide what large wealthy corporations can. Where there is the means to provide the benefits you refer to, they should be provided.
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I could go on but it's too easy.
What's too easy, I'm still waiting for it?
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Forget about the fact that liberals screamed about Representative Foley yet they can't wait to showcase the known child predator Scott Ridder. Ridder was busted twice for luring 13 year old girls to watch him masturbate.
The Foley case would have been big regardless of what you allege liberals did. It's part of the sex sells ethic of the media, it had nothing to do with a vast left wing conspiracy.
quote:
Sick, but not too sick for liberals since he's a Bush critic. I know why people are mad Thom debates conservatives, it's because these truths I tell are inconvenient. Sound familiar. Grow up and clean your hypocrisy laden houses liberals.
Where was the truth?
"The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves." — Henry Kissinger
Posts: 731 | Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: 10 September 2006
jrudi - Please don't stop your postings. You explain so much better than I can ever do. You are a breath of fresh air! I look forward to more from you.
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
Al Gore is just some one with notoriety shedding light on an issue.
You give him a pass. His agenda is more deeply connected to other theories than "all about shedding light" on the environment. One's example speaks alot louder than words. Al Gore is NOT reducing consumption; he's not even a staunch believer in what his proposals are for he does not live them himself. He's priming himself for political office.
Are you REALLY aware of how one of the "Breck Girls", John Edwards made his money? It appears you do not.
quote:
Where was the truth?
Keep looking.
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
You give him a pass. His agenda is more deeply connected to other theories than "all about shedding light" on the environment. One's example speaks alot louder than words. Al Gore is NOT reducing consumption; he's not even a staunch believer in what his proposals are for he does not live them himself. He's priming himself for political office.
Well, the issue is global warming, you want to make it Al Gore. I'm not particularly interested in Al Gore (he's never impressed me, although his movie was far better than I expected it to be), I'm interested in whether global warming is real or not, and doing something to lessen its effects if it is real.
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Are you REALLY aware of how one of the "Breck Girls", John Edwards made his money? It appears you do not.
No, I don't know everyone of his cases (or actually anyone of his cases). I think the right wing attack on trial lawyers, is just the typical corporate greed at the expense of the little guy...
"The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves." — Henry Kissinger
Posts: 731 | Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: 10 September 2006
"Speaking as a conservative, I've always found it's really no challenge debating liberals"
and i have always found it easy to debate conservatives. as soon as the topic comes to the deficit, the iraqi WMD that dont exist, the reducing of veteran benifits by the bush administration, or the taking away of american liberties like hapeas corpus, all the conservatives go running.
the ones that dont go running, like GG, cant even present facts or truths to present her case. rather, they claim that the boogeyman is coming to destroy america in the form of environmentalist, nuclear bombs, the destruction of christianity, and other far out scenerios that even stephen king couldnt think of.
you know how easy it is to debate conservatives? lets take a look:
i had one (poppingturtle) tell me that clinton was slow to react when hurricane floyd hit florida. he sure felt embarrassed when i pointed out and showed proof that particular storm never came within 100 miles of the florida coast.
i had another one (GG) tell me that birthcontrol pills cause fish to mutate in the pacific ocean. lol that was fun dismantling those claims.
i had one (GG) tell me that iraq was a safe country, despite her also telling me that saddam was a ruthless leader. you conservatives cant even keep your lies straight.
i had another one (jurdi) tell me that gore uses excess energy. funny how he failed to mention that Gore has purchased thousands of dollars worth of 'green' energy like solar power. of course a house thats 10,000 sq ft is going to use more energy than a 1000 sq ft home. but numbers arent exactly a conservative strongpoint, which is why we have record deficits. its easy to distort the truth when you conviently cherry pick the information.
yup, its sure easy to debate conservatives. so easy that even a caveman can do it
------------------------------------------ debating conservatives is easy. so easy, even a caveman can do it!
"if this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck lot easier, just so long as im the dictator" -GWB Dec 18,2002
Posts: 1614 | Location: ft myers florida area | Registered: 23 September 2006
No, I don't know everyone of his cases (or actually anyone of his cases). I think the right wing attack on trial lawyers, is just the typical corporate greed at the expense of the little guy...
You ever work for a poor company - a company NOT making profits? Do you know where the concept of corporate greed originated?
Do you think "entitlement programs/(socialism)" are the way "for the little guy" to become independent and responsible to support his own family? Are we too depend on "Bid Daddy" to care of 'the little guy'? What happened to working hard and making every opportunity to better oneself? Stop blaming corporations who give people jobs. Let's stop Katrina kinds of victims who for over 30 years were stuck in going no where programs and many were glad to get out of N'orleans. Le'ts stop the victim's mentality and grow up and be responsible for one's self.
True CEOs are too often highly paid. But let us not overlook the factors that many worked hard and studied hard to achieve.
We all have the same freedoms to determine how we shall live.
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
We all have the same freedoms to determine how we shall live.
you mean like how the iraqis had the choice to determine how they lived? somehow i dont think the iraqis agreed to live under an invading army. i dont think that they agreed to be killed by 3000 lb us bombs.
apparently you choose to live your life as a hypocryt GG. good choice
------------------------------------------ debating conservatives is easy. so easy, even a caveman can do it!
"if this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck lot easier, just so long as im the dictator" -GWB Dec 18,2002
Posts: 1614 | Location: ft myers florida area | Registered: 23 September 2006
You ever work for a poor company - a company NOT making profits? Do you know where the concept of corporate greed originated?
I think corporate greed originated along with the idea of power corrupts. Some people when they get in control of something, and attain some status, seem to have clouded judgment where they go to an extreme to benefit their own personal interest... I never worked for a company that didn't make profits, I don't have any sympathy for unprofitable corporations, businesses come and go...
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Do you think "entitlement programs/(socialism)" are the way "for the little guy" to become independent and responsible to support his own family?
I think we shouldn't have any poverty in the United States of America. If it takes 'entitlement programs' to do it, that's fine.
quote:
Are we too depend on "Bid Daddy" to care of 'the little guy'?
The private sector and the rich aren't going to do it, what else is there...
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What happened to working hard and making every opportunity to better oneself?
Life isn't fair, not everyone is afforded the same opportunities. You can work hard and play by the rules, and not get the same results as some one who started out ahead of you, has better luck than you, or is better connected...
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Stop blaming corporations who give people jobs.
Corporations don't give people jobs for the betterment of society. The do it for one simple reason, to make money. They're not altruistic or some kind of charity. They're self interested and they use people at their own whim.
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Let's stop Katrina kinds of victims who for over 30 years were stuck in going no where programs and many were glad to get out of N'orleans. Le'ts stop the victim's mentality and grow up and be responsible for one's self.
Good idea, let's have another New Deal, another Great Society, and put people to work at living wage jobs...
quote:
True CEOs are too often highly paid. But let us not overlook the factors that many worked hard and studied hard to achieve.
We all have the same freedoms to determine how we shall live.
But there isn't a level playing field that's a big part of the problem.
"The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves." — Henry Kissinger
Posts: 731 | Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: 10 September 2006
I live in a country of opportunity. If we do not strive for these opportunities to increase for the better of society, individual and family, we have only oneself to blame. It's "GROUP THINK" in nancy's headship likened to ---------- you fill in the blanks that is killing us.
We'e become too mesmerized by "Big Daddy" entitlements - (like there is a pill for every illness or pain,0 and I am certain mama ain't lookin' out for the American citizens.
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
The private sector and the rich aren't going to do it, what else is there...
There are many wonderful charitable organizations and usually better off without the use of any government money who then want to control the programs.
Our tax dollars should directly choose to whom and what organizations we want to support. BIG DADDY digs too deeply into our pockets.
I abhore the idea that my tax dollars are being used to kill babies and to experiment on EMBRYONIC stem cells and cloning, for instance.
quote:
But there isn't a level playing field that's a big part of the problem.
But we cannot create equality by socialist/entitlements. Thank God we have SOME programs and that's what makes us a great nation. The Democrat Party proposes to under advantaged to care FOR them, seeking voter blocks, but these same legislators do not shares their own wealth but USE OUR TAXES TO WIN VOTES and ever increasing more and more going no where programs that keep people stuck! Take a look at the illegals and their entitlements and protections. Illegals have more advantages than American citizens.(thank you nancy!)
* * * * * * * * Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.
Posts: 6275 | Location: Maine | Registered: 31 December 2005
I abhore the idea that my tax dollars are being used to kill babies and to experiment on EMBRYONIC stem cells and cloning, for instance.
and i abhore mine being used to kill innocents abroad and to experiment with a failed invasion of iraq.
------------------
"Take a look at the illegals and their entitlements and protections. Illegals have more advantages than American citizens.(thank you nancy!)"
why are you unfairly blaming nancy GG? she is only 3rd in command in the us government and she has only held the post for less than 2 months. why not blame dennis hasert, the outgoing majority leader? why not blame cheney? why not blame bush? all 3 have held more powerful posts for a longer period of time than nancy has.
you seem to blame EVERYONE but the people responsible. you conviently seem to forget that bush and cheney have been in office for 6 yrs and have done what to secure our border with mexico? nothing at all. bush is also the one who wants to grant amnesty to all the illegals living in the us, so perhaps you should reconsider who you blame. why give twiddle dee and twiddle dumb a free pass? (cheney and bush)
------------------------------------------ debating conservatives is easy. so easy, even a caveman can do it!
"if this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck lot easier, just so long as im the dictator" -GWB Dec 18,2002
Posts: 1614 | Location: ft myers florida area | Registered: 23 September 2006
UNFAIRLY you say. Just this month she hired a consultant from the OSI of George Soros. This consultant hates America. You call me unfair??
Think about where she is going with all this - portion of article
Onek serves as Director of CP’s Liberty and Security Initiative (LSI), which flatly rejects most of America’s post-9/11 homeland security efforts as misguided “government proposals that [have] jeopardized civil liberties.” Specifically, LSI:
opposes President Bush’s decision to try suspected terrorists in military tribunals rather than in civilian courts . . .
Onek has played major roles in the two presidential administrations that did more harm to America’s terror-fighting capacity than any other administrations in U.S. history.
UNFAIRLY you say. Just this month she hired a consultant from the OSI of George Soros. This consultant hates America. You call me unfair??
and what is your proof that he hates america? has he told you personally? or are you making an ASSUMPTION like a typical hypocrytical conservative? ya i thought so.
----------------
"opposes President Bush’s decision to try suspected terrorists in military tribunals rather than in civilian courts . "
see the key word there- SUSPECTED!. here in the united states, we have a thing called right to trial by jury. we also have a thing called presumed innocent until found guilty in a COURT of law.
bush's military tribinuals wont offer legal council to anyone suspected of being a terrorist (which the bush administration defines), nor even shows them the evidence against them or the charges against them (besides being a SUSPECTED TERRORIST).
bush's secret military tribinuals sound just like what happened in nazi germany. there, SUSPECTED jews were rounded up, not given any legal access, were detained, and eventually killed. figures you would approve of such measures, being that your catholic church was directly involved in the genocide of the jews and your very own pope was a happy enlistee of the hitler youth army.
------------------------------------------ debating conservatives is easy. so easy, even a caveman can do it!
"if this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck lot easier, just so long as im the dictator" -GWB Dec 18,2002
Posts: 1614 | Location: ft myers florida area | Registered: 23 September 2006
really!! C'mon, KennyMac. How depressing that is me. I'm getting silly being in this forum too many hours this a.m.