I agree with Danny that Bush did not instigate or help plan 911.
I disagree with him that Bush deserves any respect.
Danny also eagerly allowed the mic to be jammed in his face, so his anger/reaction at the end after he decided he didn't like the other man's opinion was uncalled for.
The other guy really didn't represent himself well either, and appearred flustered at the end.
I do think Bush was warned about 911 (in fact, it is a well-known fact he was warned) and he allowed 911 to happen either by incompetence or by negligence.
Danny has turned into a major scumbag and himself amounts to nothing.
Posts: 1741 | Location: Florida | Registered: 19 March 2006
Bonaduce's like watching a car wreck. Entertaining is a sad way. I wish I had broadband at my cabin, I'd love to watch a madman talking to a lunatic.
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
Posts: 8264 | Location: Fl | Registered: 05 July 2001
Originally posted by Strawberry: I agree with Danny that Bush did not instigate or help plan 911.
I've read a lot of the conspiracy theory, like most conspiracy theories I can't come to same conclusions that the believers do, but as with many other events something is amiss. There's a big difference too between saying Bush was incompetent (or even let something happen not knowing what it would be), and he planted bombs in the WTC, or conspired to kill thousands of Americans for political gain.
I think Loose Change is a good movie and I think everyone should see it, but I don't think it's all correct.
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I disagree with him that Bush deserves any respect.
Danny also eagerly allowed the mic to be jammed in his face, so his anger/reaction at the end after he decided he didn't like the other man's opinion was uncalled for.
Really, the one bit of sympathy I did feel for Bonaduce, is it's got to be hard being famous. With people coming up to you all the time jamming microphones in your face.
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The other guy really didn't represent himself well either, and appearred flustered at the end.
Bonaduce is a big guy I thought he showed some courage standing there while Danny was getting red faced.
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I do think Bush was warned about 911 (in fact, it is a well-known fact he was warned) and he allowed 911 to happen either by incompetence or by negligence.
Danny has turned into a major scumbag and himself amounts to nothing.
I don't know if he's a major scumbag, but he seems much more conservative than I would have thought. In fact I saw him on the Glenn Beck show the other day, and after he was interviewed he told Glenn he's the best or something like that (I was thinking what planet is Glenn the best on?). I think Bonaduce is looking for a radio gig so I chalked up to sucking up/networking at the time, but Bonaduce doesn't seem to be liberal in anyway.
"The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves." — Henry Kissinger
Posts: 731 | Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: 10 September 2006
Originally posted by Strawberry: I agree with Danny that Bush did not instigate or help plan 911.
I've read a lot of the conspiracy theory, like most conspiracy theories I can't come to same conclusions that the believers do, but as with many other events something is amiss. There's a big difference too between saying Bush was incompetent (or even let something happen not knowing what it would be), and he planted bombs in the WTC, or conspired to kill thousands of Americans for political gain.
I should have said "There is no evidence that Bush planned or instigated 911". Of course, I have no way of knowing either way. But IMHO, if Bush did have something to do with causing 911, al he had to do was pick up the phone and call his buddies the Bin Laden's and have them arrange something "big". I do not believe we know everything about the Bin Laden and Bush relationship, or all the possible motivations why Osama may have wanted to hurt the USA while any member of the Bush clan were President. For example, there could be bad blood between Osama and GWBush and Osama pulled the 911 trigger merely out of hatred for Bush or jealousy that Bush was good friends with his family and can go anywhere in the world together whereas Osama can't. Just hypothesizing here.
I think Loose Change is a good movie and I think everyone should see it, but I don't think it's all correct.
I started watching it. I quit watching after the first five minutes after I did some fact checking on several claims the movie made,. They were demonstrably wrong on many basic assertions, so I decided I could not trust any film which was so easily proved wrong on basic facts. I have watched other films too, and debated these conspiracies very much, and I do not believe anything happened other than what most people people: terrorist hijacked planes and flew thin into various buildings. The real mystery is whether Bush picked up the phone and asked the Bin Laden's to contact their brother Osama to arrange 911 or something like it. This we will never know because thise lone phone cal theory leaves no witnesses (unlike all the other cponspiracy theories, which woulc leave 100s of witnesses.)
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I disagree with him that Bush deserves any respect.
Danny also eagerly allowed the mic to be jammed in his face, so his anger/reaction at the end after he decided he didn't like the other man's opinion was uncalled for.
Really, the one bit of sympathy I did feel for Bonaduce, is it's got to be hard being famous. With people coming up to you all the time jamming microphones in your face.
I agree. And I watched for his reaction to this. And it appearred to me that Danny enjoyed the initial attention. Only later did he decide to turn on the interviewer.
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The other guy really didn't represent himself well either, and appearred flustered at the end.
Bonaduce is a big guy I thought he showed some courage standing there while Danny was getting red faced.
Courage, yes. Wits, no.
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I do think Bush was warned about 911 (in fact, it is a well-known fact he was warned) and he allowed 911 to happen either by incompetence or by negligence.
Danny has turned into a major scumbag and himself amounts to nothing.
I don't know if he's a major scumbag, but he seems much more conservative than I would have thought. In fact I saw him on the Glenn Beck show the other day, and after he was interviewed he told Glenn he's the best or something like that (I was thinking what planet is Glenn the best on?). I think Bonaduce is looking for a radio gig so I chalked up to sucking up/networking at the time, but Bonaduce doesn't seem to be liberal in anyway.
Posts: 1741 | Location: Florida | Registered: 19 March 2006
I should have said "There is no evidence that Bush planned or instigated 911". Of course, I have no way of knowing either way. But IMHO, if Bush did have something to do with causing 911, al he had to do was pick up the phone and call his buddies the Bin Laden's and have them arrange something "big". I do not believe we know everything about the Bin Laden and Bush relationship, or all the possible motivations why Osama may have wanted to hurt the USA while any member of the Bush clan were President. For example, there could be bad blood between Osama and GWBush and Osama pulled the 911 trigger merely out of hatred for Bush or jealousy that Bush was good friends with his family and can go anywhere in the world together whereas Osama can't. Just hypothesizing here.
Maybe I'm more of a conspiracy nut than you. I leave open the possibility for many of the hypothetical scenarios, but I haven't seen enough evidence to convince me of any of them. Also I shouldn't have said the conspiracy folks necessarily think Bush was responsible, 9/11 could have been an intelligence operation, or some top secret part of the military could have done it. I'm talking about an area I don't know much about, but it just seems to me some rogue element of the government other than the Bush Administration could have done 9/11.
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I started watching it. I quit watching after the first five minutes after I did some fact checking on several claims the movie made,. They were demonstrably wrong on many basic assertions, so I decided I could not trust any film which was so easily proved wrong on basic facts. I have watched other films too, and debated these conspiracies very much, and I do not believe anything happened other than what most people people: terrorist hijacked planes and flew thin into various buildings. The real mystery is whether Bush picked up the phone and asked the Bin Laden's to contact their brother Osama to arrange 911 or something like it. This we will never know because thise lone phone cal theory leaves no witnesses (unlike all the other cponspiracy theories, which woulc leave 100s of witnesses.)
I never checked the movie fact by fact, and I guess I probably should. I did see a debate between the Loose Change guys, and two editors of Popular Mechanics (hosted by Democracy Now), and I thought the Loose Change film makers got the better of the Popular Mechanics guys.
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I agree. And I watched for his reaction to this. And it appearred to me that Danny enjoyed the initial attention. Only later did he decide to turn on the interviewer.
Ok, I see what you're saying now. I think we're getting into hair splitting territory.
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Courage, yes. Wits, no.
haha
"The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves." — Henry Kissinger
Posts: 731 | Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: 10 September 2006
Originally posted by Strawberry: The real mystery is whether Bush picked up the phone and asked the Bin Laden's to contact their brother Osama to arrange 911 or something like it. This we will never know because this lone phone call theory leaves no witnesses (unlike all the other conspiracy theories, which would leave 100s of witnesses.)
Given the PDB about "Bin Laden determined to strike within the US" I suspect that this is no more than a conspiracy theory.
Occam's Razor tells us that the simplest explanation is the best. It is simpler for Bin Laden to have decided to attack the US than for Bush to have called his family and told them "hey, get Osama to attack the US".
Yes that would leave very few witnesses, but it isn't required, given that Al Qaeda had already attacked American interests several times.
Z.
Say what you mean and mean what you say.
Double talk is only good for political wonks and Lawyers.
Posts: 232 | Location: Portland, Or | Registered: 19 April 2006
Originally posted by Strawberry: The real mystery is whether Bush picked up the phone and asked the Bin Laden's to contact their brother Osama to arrange 911 or something like it. This we will never know because this lone phone call theory leaves no witnesses (unlike all the other conspiracy theories, which would leave 100s of witnesses.)
Given the PDB about "Bin Laden determined to strike within the US" I suspect that this is no more than a conspiracy theory.
Occam's Razor tells us that the simplest explanation is the best. It is simpler for Bin Laden to have decided to attack the US than for Bush to have called his family and told them "hey, get Osama to attack the US".
Yes that would leave very few witnesses, but it isn't required, given that Al Qaeda had already attacked American interests several times.
Z.
I agree with you.
My point is that if Bush indeed instigated 911, Occam's Razor would then suggest that the Lone Phone Call Theory is the best and most logical way for him to do it.
Bush wouldn't need to care about the exact nature or date of the attack so long as it was grand enough to help him politically and small enough to ensure it wasn't a nuclear holocaust.
More specifically, Bush or Osama or anyone wouldn't have worried whether the WTC towers fell or not--just so long as the attack itself induced terror (and multiple jet strikes on several skyscrapers and gvmt buildings is indeed enough to induce terror).
As you say, the most logical theory is that Osama instigated and executed 911 without Bush's help or request. However, this in no way fully explains Osama's motives for 911. For example, Osama may or may not have pulled the 911 trigger had Bush not been President (maybe because of bad blood between the two).
Posts: 1741 | Location: Florida | Registered: 19 March 2006
Motives? It's a real spinetingling mystery when you spend a minute listening to Osama, Al Zawahiri, and company defiantly repeat their hatred of America, determination to kill all of us good ol' infidels!
Osama declared war on the USA in l995, or was it 96? When they failed to bring down 1 World Trade Center with the 93 bombing, Ramsi Yousef (in the USA on an Iraqi passport, by the way) cryptically hinted that the determination wasn't over.
The final basic plans and agreement to proceed with the 9/11 operation were concluded at the then secret Al Qaeda summit in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia in May, 2000. Clinton was President at the time, and then likely Republican nominee GW Bush was not even thought likely to defeat Gore in the fall. The final phases before carrying out the operation were getting the hijackers trained in piloting, etc. and Al Qaeda was basically determined to pull this off no matter who was or wasn't President.
Of interest was then acting Iraqi Prime Minister Allawi announcing in June 2004 that just uncovered secret Saddam Mukbarrat papers mentioned Mohammed Atta's attendance in June 2001 at the SE Baghdad Iraqi/Saddam terrorist training camp at Salman Pak. Confirmed later as a significant part of this camp was a commercial jetliner fuselage used for practicing and perfecting airliner hijacking techniques. And of course, the major news outlets couldn't ignore and refuse to cover this important tidbit fast enough!
The PDB did mention Osama as determined to strike within the US, and Ben Veniste made sure to milk it with pointed grandstanding as much as it could be milked. As one author put it, a news brief announcing that a part time waitress in LA hoped to make it big with a lucky break in Hollywood, would be almost as definitive.
There are likely lots of reasons and factors that allowed 9/11 to be pulled off without enough specific advance information to interdict it, but to me it seems the biggest culprits are the FBI bureaucratic higher ups who didn't do much with agent Rowley's perceptive concerns about the middle eastern pilot students, and probably most significant was Jamie Gorelick's (Clinton/Reno justice department) enacted walls of separation policy forbidding any effective communication between the Intelligence agencies and the domestic FBI.
All those 9/11 conspiracy productions are loaded with obnoxious propaganda, easily demonstrated facual errors, major internal contradictions, and carefully "cherry-picked" tidbits that ignore many, many very relevant documented facts that immedately blitz the assertion of the moment if pointed out. But, they skillfully ignore the obvious details and facts that vitiate the claim of the moment, and trust that the manipulated audience won't know any better, or remember many details of the day. And, with a not insignificant number of viewers, they succeed in that. Much like the slickly incomplete and deceptive Michael Moore.
Cheers.
Posts: 25 | Location: USA | Registered: 08 March 2007
C’mon WhitemoonG, we all know Bush was behind the attacks on 9/11. He was also behind the February 26 1993 World Trade Center bombing, The Jan 6, 1995 Oplan Bojinka plot to bomb eleven U.S. airliners. The March 20, 1995 Sarin gas attack on the Tokyo subway. The April 19 1995 Oklahoma City bombing. The June 25 1996 Khobar Towers bombing. The August 7 1998 U.S. embassy bombings in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania and Nairobi, Kenya. The October 12 2000 USS Cole bombing.
It all started back in the 60’s when George W. Bush personally assassinated President John F. Kennedy November 22 1963, in Where ? Texas, what a suprise!
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. Winston Churchill
Posts: 623 | Location: lefortovo | Registered: 09 February 2006
Alex Station Michael F Scheur Pappa Bush Global control of all central highlands
The Intel community is fractured. Plame Op was a shot across the bow to force compliance. Bin Laden was and is an asset. He may be off the res. but that perception is being used.
Just some stray thoughts....
"The moon that I love clears a path through the pines And guides a stream right to the bamboo gate."Poems by Zen Master Hsu Yun: Series I
Posts: 795 | Location: western slope, northern sierra | Registered: 18 April 2003
Bush isn't in control of his own mouth so I seriously doubt that he would have been in on any sort of plan if there had been one to innitiate an attack.
On the otherhand it was entirely unnecesary to be involved in the attack.
If a less than honorable administration wanted to have an attack take place that they could then use for political gain the last thing one would do is to leave a paper trail or make a phone call or in anyway indicate that one wanted such a thing to transpire.
What one would do is redirect resources and drag ones feet with regards to counter-terrorism efforts. Concentrate on other things while maybe letting a plan to invade Afghanistan leak to people who could get it to a certain individual with reason to be worried about such a thing.
Then just ensure that no one takes a threat seriously by not holding high level meetings with the principals and not pushing your intell people for information after recieving a briefing saying that a known enemy was determined to attack. Oh then spend a good portion of your time on vacation pretending to clear brush.
Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion<br />The Treaty of Tripoli 1797
I pretty much agree with everything you said, but let's make sure we're being honest. He wasn't warned about 911, he was warned of the high likelihood of some type of attack. In that, the known targets (Wold Trade Center Being one of them) should have been put under alert, and other precautionary measures should have been taken. And no action was taken, in spite of repeated warnings.
But to say he was "warned of 911" just gives people a way to truthfully say, "no he wasn't." Because technically, he wasn't.
Does anyone have any information about "Reopen 911.ORG".. Jim Walters was offering a one million dollar reward ($1,000,000) to anyone who could prove that Jet-fuel fires caused the three WTC bldg to collapse. (wtc1, wtc2, wtc7) This site was on the internet for about 2 years and about 3 months ago it was gone
To my knowledge no one had collected the reward. I discuss 911 often and when Bush supporters start calling me nuts or Ding-Dong I ask them to check out the site. I have convinced many that 911 was an inside job.
Check out 911 Blogger.com. They have a audio of Rush Limbausgh last friday. A caller mentioned 911 as an Inside job and Limbaugh hung up on him and questioned his producer, how did that man get past the screeners.
Fair & Balanced..
There are many un-answered questions and mysterys about 911. The only way to solve this problem is to reopen the 911 investigation.
All the worlds weapons are a symbol of human failure
Posts: 92 | Location: Pittsburgh Pa | Registered: 08 February 2007
"The only way to solve this problem is to reopen the 911 investigation."
Why? So we can have another whitewash commission report? The 911 investigation is ongoing -- it's organic and being carried out by people like you and me.
911 stinks to high heaven. People are waking up from the spell that was cast on the U.S. that day.
Cui Bono?
Here's the short list: The Military/Industrial Complex The Bush Administration The Terror Industries: Surveillance companies, the Media
(whitemoonG and other true believers of the official conspiracy theory - y'know the one about the 19 arab hijackers who defeated NORAD defenses armed only with Korans and box-cutters) -- instead of just parroting already debunked debunkers you should do your own investigations into what happened on 9-11.
The
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Exposing false flag terrorism ends war.
Posts: 31 | Location: Redondo Beach, CA | Registered: 06 September 2006
I just got a call from a close friend. Reopen 911.ORG is back on line.
$1,000,000 REWARD
One million dollar reward to anyone who can prove the Official story of the US Govt.
The reward is still on. No one has attempted to collect. I`m surprised that no one from NIST or popular science magazine has attempted to collect. Maybe 911 is a cover-up and these pawns were paid to lie. trying to collect the reward would only give this group more exposure.
All the worlds weapons are a symbol of human failure
Posts: 92 | Location: Pittsburgh Pa | Registered: 08 February 2007
"Believer" in the official conspiracy theory? I don't believe in any 911 theory, just the basic facts as they unfolded, as reported by thousands of people on the scene (many, many intentionally ignored or cherry picked for portions of their comments by "911 truth" sites), in addition to multiple independent news sources and outlets, many openly hostile to Bush, who would have led the charge to impeachment and criminal confinement and anything else punitive if there was any credible critical mass behind any of the 911 conspiracy stuff.
That aside, I've seen all those "911 in plane site", "loose change," and lots of web sites and unlike most observers, recognized immediately how deceptive they all are, with "facts" that aren't, all the developed observations presented in a "gotcha" format, intentionally to manipulate the observer into thinking there is a major "fact" or observation that has no reasonable answer if the "official version" is true, etc. when the lead up is incomplete, leaves out MAJOR hard factual information (that most people wouldn't either remember or have reason to know), as well as conveniently cherry picking portions of people's stated observations (fresh out the Michael Moore school.
Numerous, numerous contemporaneous witness accounts of what happened right in front of them at the Pentagon, along with pictures of airplane parts on the lawn taken within 7 minutes of the event, including one eyewitness who saw the American Airlines 757 plow into the Pentagon just at or barely above ground level, after roaring by several feet above the line of cars stuck in traffic. This eyewitness watched in horror/bewilderment as it hit the building, followed by looking for a fraction of a second like it was almost disappearing into the building at the same time as it seemed to almost melt into nothingness with the big violent fireball. Tons of witnesses noted that the jet seemed to disappear as well as being shattered into numerous, numerous, primarily very small pieces and that it was literally "raining" small pieces of metallic debris, verified as jetliner. And, no, these witnesses were not ALL Pentagon/government employees, etc. but included Honduran immigrants mowing the lawn, A beer truck driver from Southern Virginia, and all sorts of people fated to be nearby.
And, the witness I was referring to initially put her car at a dead park, and withing seconds dialed a local talk radio show on her cell phone, and was live on the air describing what horrible thing she had witnessed close up, as had hundreds of others, and interestingly, asked herself in a thinking out loud sense while live on the air, the same question asked by others, namely "where'd the plane go?" as it seemed to be surreal and hard to understand even though she had seen it happen close up. To those occasional dopey 911 skeptics who sometimes think that some government boogey man team immediately rounded up and threatened all the hundreds of witnessess that they had to stick to some other story, etc. (obviously an idiotic, preposterous and impossible task) this lady immediately eliminates that crazy idea. stating on live radio that a 757 just hit, saw it happen, yet can't understand what she saw with it largely disintegrating, etc. She was already on the air before talking to anyone else, or having anyone else talk to her later about it.
As to where'd the plane go, all these hundreds witnesses must have been tricked, or are liars, etc, ( another extraordinarily far fetched unlikelihood) so it must have been a missile, etc. and the hole is too small etc, all of that doesn't understand (or usually doesn't want to understand) that the physics of the highly reinforced concrete and steel Pentagon (vs. the relatively much thinner walled trade center towers) as it related to the center of mass of the jetliners (concentrated in the fuselage and the inner wings, NOT evenly from wing tip to wing tip) results in holes in the Pentagon that are not hard to understand or explain at all, but what the physics would expect.
I read one very bright guy's analysis and web site who believes in the remote control jetliners crashing idea, who himself properly views the Pentagon Missile nonsense as so out of touch with all the available data, hundreds of eyewitnesses, as well as numerous contemporaneous photos of jetliner fragments, including the engines confirmed present, that he thinks, interestingly, that the 911 missile stuff was actually dreamed up by the White House itself, as being so obviously preposterous and oblivious to all the hard documentation, that many would immediately think it ( and hopefully all the 9/11 skeptic stuff) as baloney, so as to deflect attention to his own remote controlled jetliner speculation.
And there's lots more. Suffice it to say that you'd better guess again if your're going to brand me as some gullible sap of the "official explanation", as if to say that there ever was one.
Oh, just a teaser: remember the idiot (not Al Qaeda, just an idiot!) who buzzed the White House and crashed on the south lawn with his Cessna during the Clinton administration?
Where was NORAD and all the stand down stuff then?
Ever think your 9/11 conspiracy stuff has gotten to be more of a religion than anything else?
Posts: 25 | Location: USA | Registered: 08 March 2007
WTC 7 is the smoking gun. BBC reported that the building had fallen due to structural fires (the official story) BEFORE it fell. You can see the building standing behind the clueless BBC reporter.
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Exposing false flag terrorism ends war.
Posts: 31 | Location: Redondo Beach, CA | Registered: 06 September 2006
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