Sometimes I think Thom is skitzoid.

He wrote "Last hours of ancient sunlight" so he must know that our current population and economic growth would not exist without cheap and abundant fossil resources and yet he laments that we don't have enough economic growth to enable enough employment for all those who need a job.

He surly must know that growth is NOT sustainable therefore economic growth is also NOT sustainable.
There is no way we can sustain the current population without cheap and abundant fossil resources so as they decline so will "growth" and our excessive population will also be forced to decline.

Why dosn't Thom recognise that?

"Growth" as we have known it is ending and soon will begin the decline and no amount of "alternative fuels" can change that because they cannot replace the current amount of fossil resources we now use and most produce electricity not the high density liquid energy we require in our economy.
Even worse all of these "alternative" energy sources require more energy to make than can be gotten from them and wind, solar and wave energy is not available 24/7 and they are also limited.

Please someone tell Thom that "growth" in ANY form is NOT sustainable.

Has Thom talked about 'growth = good' as a concept? I only hear his show in bits and pieces and just today discovered his website. I've been thinking about how most people accept that growth is necessary for society's health, but I'm not buying myself. I'm hopeful that capitalism and sustainability can coexist. I'd like to see some examples if they exist.

PS, The two stories this week that really creep me out are the 1) microwave crowd control / torture device that the DoD is drooling over, and 2) the Smoke & Mirrors (not kidding) solution that our govt officially endorses as credible response to climate change. Anyone who wants to support and fund these things has to ask themselves, 1) would they trust their local police with a handheld or vehiclemounted microwave crowd suppression gun, and 2) would they trust Enron/BushCheney/Exxon to use a orbital climate device ethically? I don't want facists to have the power to shade my solar panels and garden. That's the minimum... at a worse case, we'd be burning in the dark.

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He wrote "Last hours of ancient sunlight" so he must know that our current population and economic growth would not exist without cheap and abundant fossil resources and yet he laments that we don't have enough economic growth to enable enough employment for all those who need a job.

Great point. I would be interested in hearing his response.

What does "skitzoid" mean? Is it meant as in "Schizoid" ?

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He wrote "Last hours of ancient sunlight" so he must know that our current population and economic growth would not exist without cheap and abundant fossil resources and yet he laments that we don't have enough economic growth to enable enough employment for all those who need a job.

It *would* be interesting to hear his response to your statement, because, incidentally, I wonder: Isn't growth a natural result of life?

Thus, would growth not only be sustainable if life is?

The answer is simple, you are wrong.

Growth is not ending, and growth is not unsustainable. Petroleum is getting harder to suck out of the earth, but growth is inherent in the universe. I don't think in the grand scale of geological time the availability of petroleum is going to determine our succuss or failure as a species.

This is not the first time it has happened. After the grand age of smelting there were no more hardwood forests left anywhere in the known world. Exploitation of that resource was stopped by nature, because humans can't control themselves. But eventually a new resource was found to take the place of trees, and that resource was coal.

When petroleum is so scarce that we are forced to use wind, solar and other natural energy sources it will be a huge boon to industry and to the common man. Economic imperialism is a result of monopolizing one resource, but solar or wind energy is so spread out that one corporation will find it impossible to monopolize the source of energy. That is why they are so afraid of alternative energy, because wind and solar is not concentrated is a few locations.

So growth is not ending, in fact I would say the opposite. Growth is being prevented by monoply of a resource. We recently discussed this phenomenon in a topic called "Hydraulic Despotism".

"Growth is not ending, and growth is not unsustainable."

All growth has it's limits, are YOU still growing?
Only if your still a child could you still be growing.
For an economy to grow, it must comsume ever more resources, resources are limited and someday soon fossil resources will become too difficult to extract any more and the industrial revolution will end. Solar, wind and hydroelectric and limited as well.

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Economic imperialism is a result of monopolizing one resource, but solar or wind energy is so spread out that one corporation will find it impossible to monopolize the source of energy. That is why they are so afraid of alternative energy, because wind and solar is not concentrated is a few locations.

To make the machines that will allow us to use alternative energy sources requires the use of fossil resouces to make the metal and plastics that go to make those wind turbines, solar cells and hydroelectric turbines and fossil resources are required for their maintenance.

Even with a vast expansion of alternative energy resources, we can never equal the amount of energy we now get from fossil resources and as I said before, the sun and the wind don't work 24/7 the way a fossil fuel powered generator can.
The batteries that are used to hold the electricity generated by wind or solar power also requires the use of fossil resources to make and maintain them.

We will not fail as a species when fossil resources become to scarce to burn, but there will be far fewer of us living much more difficult lives.
Like it or not, there IS a limit to growth.

Only a cancer cell doesn't have a limit to it's growth but in trying to follow it's faulty genetic code, it destroyes it's host and so dies along with it.

Sorry to butt in again, but I don't get this:

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All growth has it's limits, are YOU still growing?

In a linear sense, I am an adult. Yet I am still growing. My system is maturing, aging, it's moving, it's growing. And, mentally, emotionally and spiritually I am definitely still growing. And I hope I will be doing so for the rest of eternity.

The world's population is growing. Therefore, economy is growing too.

How can it not?

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Only a cancer cell doesn't have a limit to it's growth but in trying to follow it's faulty genetic code, it destroyes it's host and so dies along with it.

Non-cancerous cells thusly have no limit to growth either. And isn't our physical system constructed of these cells? And who said it's a faulty genetic code? We all have cancer-cells, they are in every body, healthy or otherwise. If what you're saying were true, it would indicate that our entire systems have a faulty genetic code. (Which I am not completely contradicting).

As long as there is life, there is growth.

Don't mean to criticize at all, I just don't understand your statements. How can you NOT be growing?

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Non-cancerous cells thusly have no limit to growth either

All cells other that cancer cells have limits to their growth, your heart muscle fibers are not growing, YOU physically are NOT growing, every one who has a farm knows they can only have a limited # of animals grazing their pastures because GROWTH IS LIMITED.

IF your body has cancer cells, you body may destroy them before they can grow out of control, if it can't be stopped from uncontrolled growth, the body will be destroyed and die!
Physical growth is NOT sustainable!

Argue against this fact all you like, but you can't change the laws of physics.

This economy like all economies can only grow by consuming more resources as resources decline and they are in decline, growth will slow and then cease then as resources continue to decline so will we decline in numbers until we are back in ballance with what renewables can supply.
As long as there is life there will be growth AND DEATH which will end the growth of that organizm.