I didn't want to venture into Eley lovely poem thread to chat about this. I think it is time to make a couple of observations. This is in relation to:

quote:

Kate -
Why what? Well, I suppose why the "conversation" has shifted, from something we remember to something we don't recognize as authentic.

I believe the best place to find an authentic voice, new one ... old one, is in the open space.

In a sense, the political topics themselves are closed sets, already set up as left-right vision tubes. Compound closed topics with closed doors to fresh perspectives and you've got a sort of cess pool...

quote:

Artlo -
Discussions in the political forums have degrade to exchanges with the same 4 or 5 conservatives using the same tiresome and tedious arguments and debate technics. It's basically noise. Open Spaces was a good refuge, but they'll follow you here, too. We cannot "Fight them there so we won't have to fight them here".

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Ren -
All new people could benefit from a little instruction about using this board. The "ignore list," for instance, can help one breeze past unwanted filler posts. If a new poster comes here looking for a dialogue that represents Thom's radio talks, it must be disconcerting to have the first four or five posters to greet a newbie's generally tentative efforts turn out to be the board's battle savvy conservatives.

I have only really had discussions with Artlo recently. Kate and Ren still harbor the anger and resentment from Last September’s fallout. Which fine be me, But to sit around a complain constantly about what once was without putting ANY effort into building something new is sadly whiny and borderline counter productive. It was truly a sad day when all the Progressive elitists left the board to start their own Blogging Endeavors. Which left only battle savvy conservatives (as Ren referred to us). For back then it truly was a battle. So the Board now consists of 4 battle savvy cons. Several angry depressed members not even remotely interested in dialog outside their own preconceived safety circle or even interested building a better board. A couple mid ranged member who can put together some decent discussions and a couple of newbies. I’m sorry that a majority of the long term members decide in their righteous rage to pack their bags and go elsewhere. I felt they were petty, selfish, and cowardly and violated that which they most proclaim, community and openness to new ideas. I certainly have my opinion on the character of a person and how they handle the tough times. When the going gets tough some people just have to run away.

So who is better for the board. A few Cons interested in discussion and debate on issues or Angry elitist members who liberally use the Ignore function to tune out those ideas they find beneath them not worthy of debate or clarification.

Eley. Nice poem by the way. I would say that on your thread but I felt I need to get some things off my chest.

Artlo – the reason the arguments sound tiresome and tedious, could be because progressive arguments are tiresome and tedious and your arguments are easily dispelled by our same tired tedious arguments.

Is this rant (whining) a sample of what you described as "Cons interested in discussion"?

It seems to be a rather common human trait to avoid looking at one's own part in dysfunctional human relationships.

We humans don't seem to like to ask questions like: Why is this conversation becoming tiresome? Is the other person concluding for some reason that I'm not listening and they need to repeat what they said with a slight variation? And, am I actually listening and considering what the other person is suggesting or am I simply reacting to them out of some flawed stereotype (Ex: Progressive elites)?

We don't seem to like to ask questions like: Why would someone want to ignore me? Or: Is it my opinion that's causing the problem or is it a perceived lack of listening or consideration that might lead someone to wanting to ignore me?

And we don't seem to like to ask questions about the accuracy of our own opinions, like: Is "sit around and complain constantly" an accurate portrayal of what is occurring here or perhaps a rather biased reaction based on a flawed cultural-stereotype?

----------------------------------------------

Why are you whining Loganthor? Let it go. Folks come and go and things change. No biggie.

Hi Howard.

quote:

It seems to be a rather common human trait to avoid looking at one's own part in dysfunctional human relationships.

And that is why it is so interesting why someone would use the comfort of the Ignore button like a blanket on a winter night.

quote:

Why would someone want to ignore me? Or: Is it my opinion that's causing the problem or is it a perceived lack of listening or consideration that might lead someone to wanting to ignore me?

Oh, tough ones Howard. Let me see. They are suffering cognitive dissonance and it is making it uncomfortable for them to function in society. I see no lack of listening abilities here, except those few that are under the blankets hiding (I know a stereo type but sums up the actions pretty well, unlike someone describing others in Apelike moves.)

Yes calling a fellow human being and a member of Thom's board as an "IT" is pretty much over the line in my book.

Anyway, what do I know?

quote:

Is this rant (whining) a sample of what you described as "Cons interested in discussion"?

Well, considering how many thread I start and engage in. I'm entitled to a rant or two.

quote:

It seems to be a rather common human trait to avoid looking at one's own part in dysfunctional human relationships.

I was entirely aware I currently had any. I fessed up to my prior Dysfuntional Abilities and have since move on. Others, Not so much. Alittle neddle here a little jab there. Been going on for 8 months.

quote:

We humans don't seem to like to ask questions like: Why is this conversation becoming tiresome?

Honestly, I dont really have those internal discussion, I used to when Sunrise was about, only because I dont think he ever read anything I ever wrote. Conversations become tiresome to me when there is nothing left to say. All the information is laid out on the table. I dont file away conversation that happened last week let alone last year, So old tired rhethoric and Dogma, doesn't bother that much.

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We don't seem to like to ask questions like: Why would someone want to ignore me?

Been asked and I already know the answer. doesn't make it right.

quote:

And we don't seem to like to ask questions about the accuracy of our own opinions, like: Is "sit around and complain constantly" an accurate portrayal of what is occurring here or perhaps a rather biased reaction based on a flawed cultural-stereotype?

I love when people challenge me on my own accuracy, it is why I am here. I would have a problem within myself if I felt I was not being as accurate as I could be.

As I said, For 8 months the constant neddling and jabbing, Some are even growing more and more angry and short tempered. I've watched your exchanges with people around here. While I have grown from my experiences here other's have wilted.

quote:

Why are you whining Loganthor?

I'm venting, I think there is a difference. Up till now I have felt I needed to shut my pie hole and walk on eggshells. My recent encounter with Miles and Andger have shown me certain inalienable truth's.

quote:

Folks come and go and things change. No biggie.

Feel free to spread the knowledge.

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I'm venting, I think there is a difference.

Oh right. Progressives 'whine' but conservatives 'vent'? Interesting preception.

Face it dude you just miss Miles. It's ok, you can admit it.

quote:

Oh right. Progressives 'whine' but conservatives 'vent'? Interesting preception.

I think the rule of thumb is:

venting = once
whining = 2 or more


Why does everything have to be ideological with you.

quote:

Face it dude you just miss Miles. It's ok, you can admit it.

I did...... right up till the multiple ball kickings I took from him. Andger just a dick so I didn't expect anything from him. ( yes I can say that, He is not here any more)

quote:

And that is why it is so interesting why someone would use the comfort of the Ignore button like a blanket on a winter night.

Ron - The problem I see with this statement is that it essentially leaves out all the previous attempts the person most likely made to communicate which then led the person to conclude the ignore function was the preferred option under the circumstances. And if one is advising a new member here, the suggestion might be something like: If you wish to avoid people who seem to engage in troll-like behavior, there's an ignore option available.


Re: I see no lack of listening abilities here...

**It's not a question of "abilities", is a question of whether or not the person is actually 'exercising the ability'.

--------------------------

quote:

I think the rule of thumb is:

venting = once
whining = 2 or more

Any objection to 'bleating' coming in around the 5's?

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Why does everything have to be ideological with you. cry

No idea. Probably down to my Scottish gittishness. No need for tears though

quote:

Originally posted by KennyMac:

quote:

I'm venting, I think there is a difference.

Oh right. Progressives 'whine' but conservatives 'vent'? Interesting perception.
Face it dude you just miss Miles. It's ok, you can admit it.

Truth be told, I miss Miles (and Klaus) just as much or more than Loganthor. And even though he did back-stab us, I hold no ill will towards him. Andger is a different story. And unfortunately, Miles kind of looks up to Andger as a big brother.

Loganthor did explain the difference in attitudes fairly precisely.

quote:

Any objection to 'bleating' coming in around the 5's?

I will make an amendment request to my thumb for a rule change.

quote:

Truth be told, I miss Miles (and Klaus) just as much or more than Loganthor. And even though he did back-stab us, I hold no ill will towards him. Andger is a different story. And unfortunately, Miles kind of looks up to Andger as a big brother.

Loganthor did explain the difference in attitudes fairly precisely.

Yeah. I miss them too. Some fond memories of past times. Who knows maybe they will be back someday? Folks do tend to float in and out of here and take the odd sabbatical. I wouldn't rule it out.

the truth is so tedious, so unchanging unlike the lies that change from breath to breath..

the attempt to insult and invalidate the view of the informed only works on you and ilk that speaks only talking points, like 'whinny' and official spripted spinn...

why bother.. it is a waste of time, i gave up a long time ago.. after i wrote a paper on Juvenile Delequency as a parole officer i realized it was also about the Ditto heads and ReThug party Minions and Flying Monkeys..

it was titled
"Apriori Logic as Perceptual Disfunction and a Stalemate in the Counceling Process"

like any other addict you will have to hit rock bottom to realize that the cause of your problems is the way you think.. and that you will have to seek of help of those you dispise.. those who want to help you.

Passn_thru2


What???

Kenny, see we can agree on certain things.
But as far as Miles, his IP is banned here and under no uncertain terms he stated he would not be back on several occasions (emails).

Klaus, I don't know what he is doing.

There are a few of the regulars at European Tribune showing up. (Ren, Robert, Loganthor and yours truly) And I invited miles there but no luck.

quote:

quote:

We don't seem to like to ask questions like: Why would someone want to ignore me?

Been asked and I already know the answer. doesn't make it right.

**Apparently my statement didn't adequately convey my intent. What I'm actually referring to when I personally use the phrase "ask questions" is a manner of questioning which seeks 'a new understanding' based on what's actually occurring at that point in time. I'm not referring to the (apparently) more common so-called "questioning" of appealing to one's own personal bias for an answer, or for some convenient rationalization. Attempting to understand what's going on 'now', often requires asking the other person for some explanation, and then honestly observing one's own behavior as open-mindedly as humanly possible. Appealing to one's own belief system tends to stay in the limited-box of one's existing beliefs & opinions rather than actually understanding the current relationship in question.


Re: For 8 months the constant neddling and jabbing....

**Perhaps some people prefer an honest & respectful exchange of views instead of being needled or jabbed constantly? Getting needled & jabbed constantly, I suspect, would lead many people towards an ignore option.


Re: I've watched your exchanges.....

**I'll be the first to admit that my attempts to communicate are frequently miserable failures.

----------------------------

Howard,

With all due respect, I am not Ren, Klaus, Jason, Buetos, Lawenece, Ric or any of the other "upstairs" thinkers. I know my limitation and I general shy away from grossly involved threads like the Lucifer Effect, Dogmatism, I am not my thoughts. I read them, I lurk, But quite frankly, they are simply over my head. At 36, I still have some time to learn.

I'm still in the early stages of questioning my inner child and finding out the extent to which I have any personal Bias. So you will have to tolerate and bare with me if I dont write 4 page comments on my journey of self discovery. I dont want you to be disappointed.

quote:

Appealing to one's own belief system tends to stay in the limited-box of one's existing beliefs & opinions rather than actually understanding the current relationship in question.

Jason and I recently embarked on a challenge to argue from each other perspective. I argued the Lib view and he Argued the Con view. To see if I could argue to his satisfaction the liberal perspective and vis-versa. That was enlightening to say the least. I wish we could have finished it, But he currently moving. Honestly, I think I made a better Lib then he made as a Con. IMHO.

quote:

**Perhaps some people prefer an honest & respectful exchange of views instead of being needled or jabbed constantly? Getting needled & jabbed constantly, I suspect, would lead many people towards an ignore option

Well, considering that I am the target of most of those jabs in some fashion or another. I have yet to feel the need nor the desire to ignore anybody. To me, that defeats the very purpose of being here. What would be the point of coming to a discussion group and not discussing. Complete waste of time in my book. My opinion of course.

quote:

**I'll be the first to admit that my attempts to communicate are frequently miserable failures.

You can join the support group, we meet on Tuesday’s you can bring the cheetoos

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Honestly, I think I made a better Lib then he made as a Con. IMHO.

I think so too, and probably better than I could have. Jason just did not get into it and certain things he still could not see from that point of view. Like unions.

quote:

I have yet to feel the need nor the desire to ignore anybody. To me, that defeats the very purpose of being here. What would be the point of coming to a discussion group and not discussing. Complete waste of time in my book. My opinion of course.

I can understand if people wish to not respond, I too found a person that gave me no pleasure or garnered any more knowledge for myself. But in no way did I ignore his posts-I still read them for the knowledge they contained, and sometimes by chance they did. It was simply a waste of my time to respond.

Here
Here


Eight month of this. It almost like a very long slow motion death sequence.