Air America Radio Cruise, February 23 - March 1, 2008.

I heard this advertised during Friday's show. As well as Thom, speakers include Jon Elliott, Mark Green, Richard Greene, Paul Krugman, Lionel, Rachel Maddow, Randi Rhodes, and Cenk Uygur.

Link

Sounds expensive.

quote:

Originally posted by Gnarlodious:
Sounds expensive.

Cruises can be a pretty good bang for the buck.
The California to Cabo to PV is a great cruise.
I suggest springing for a deck stateroom at least. About $1,000 per person.
If you can swing a suite, even better.
The budget staterooms make you wish you'd spent the extra money.

The week before this event, I'll be in SoCal at Catalina Island. I'll wave to you guys as you drift by.

Sue, are you going?

I have two questions. How much is the cruise and do you have to wear Birkenstocks?

quote:

Originally posted by Sawdust:
I have two questions. How much is the cruise... ?

quote:

Category SA - Deluxe Suite with Verandah

Click here to enlarge image in a new window. Double: $3,783pp Single: $6,305pp
Rotterdam Deck
563 square feet. Use of Neptune Lounge & Personal Concierge. Complimentary laundry, pressing & dry cleaning service. Two lower beds, convertible to king-sized bed, whirlpool bath and shower, large sitting area, dressing room, private verandah, 1 sofa bed for 2 persons, flat screen TV & DVD, minibar, refrigerator.
Category SS - Superior Suite with Verandah

Click here to enlarge image in a new window. Double: $2,657pp Single: $4,304pp
Navigation Deck
392 square feet Two lower beds, convertible to 1 queen-sized bed, whirlpool bath and shower, large sitting area, private verandah, flat screen TV & DVD, minibar, refrigerator, floor-to-ceiling windows.
Category V - Deluxe Outside with Verandah...>>Early Booking Discount - $150pp<<

Click here to enlarge image in a new window. Double: $2,114pp Single: $3,198pp
Various Decks
>>Only 10 Cabins Available at Discount Rate<<
241 square feet Two lower beds, convertible to 1 queen-sized bed, bath & shower, sitting area, private verandah, mini-bar, refrigerator, flat screen TV & floor-to-ceiling windows.
Category OV- Large Ocean View.......................>>Early Booking Discount - $100pp<<

Click here to enlarge image in a new window.
Double: $1,717pp Single: $2,196pp
Various Decks
>>Only 15 Cabins Available at Discount Rate<<
190 square feet Two lower beds, convertible to 1 queen-sized bed, flat screen TV, ocean view, bathtub & shower.
Category IN - Inside Cabin.....................................>>Early Booking Discount - $50pp<<

Click here to enlarge image in a new window. Double: $1,380pp Single: $1,741pp
Various Decks
>>Only 20 Cabins Available at Discount Rate<<
185 square feet Two lower beds, convertible to 1 queen-sized bed, flat panel TV & DVD player, & shower.

link

plus air fare and San Diego Hampton Inn before and after the cruise.

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and do you have to wear Birkenstocks?

Only at ports of call in Mexico. You must wear leather boat shoes in San Diego.

quote:

Cruise with Thom

A Thom-cruise.

Okay, I can't believe I am the only one here that feels that cruise ships are horrible, unnecessary polluters.

I know California and Washington state have pretty strict laws for the waste disposal from the ships, when they dock in their ports. However I am curious as to if these same principles are enacted in Mexico?

Sue, you are pretty knowledgeable about the environment, what is your take on cruise ships and how much they pollute?

quote:

A Thom-cruise.

No, I'm not going.

I've not really come across cruises in my environmental studies. I know that transporting goods by sea is generally considered better than by air. Obviusly cruise ships can be bad polluters, but you have to compare their per capita pollution with the per capita pollution that people would be creating if they stayed at home or did something else. I don't like the idea of any ships in environmentally sensitive areas.

The home page tells you how passengers can offset their carbon emissions. There is also a lengthy FAQ about the environment.

quote:

Obviusly cruise ships can be bad polluters, but you have to compare their per capita pollution with the per capita pollution that people would be creating if they stayed at home or did something else.

Sue, from you OWN source:

Offsetting your carbon footprint takes decades

There's no excuse for this, none. And there's no excuse for the autor of The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight to participate in this. What happened? Did he 'move on', or something?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Loki,

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Okay, I can't believe I am the only one here that feels that cruise ships are horrible, unnecessary polluters.

Nope:
How about black soot from diesel engines
and offshore raw sewage dumping.

I'd go if they have daily clay pidgeon shooting off the back.
Those were the good 'ol days.

Having worked on a few PRINCESS cruise ships as a musician, let me tell you what I saw (and smelled) on their ships:

1. Smell of sewer gas every 3 or four days throughout the ship- due to poor maintainance (cleaning) of the drain system (showers, toilets, sinks..)

2. Combustables (lint, paper, etc.) behind the washers and dryers in the laundry rooms (passenger and crew)

3. NO DRAIN in the laundry rooms. Poor maintainace of water hoses in washers resulted in 5" on water flooding laundry rooms on two occassions!

4. loose wood deckboards on upper exposed decks. Poor, cheap caulking of deck drains.

5. Overflowing toilets. No plungers in crew and passenger toilets. (I guess they thought it was too great an expense and that passengers would steal them off the ship!!!)

6. Food generally had no flavor. Every morning all you would see outside of passenger doors in the mornings in the hallways was FULL plates of food from food service the previous night.

BEFORE GETTING ON, OR BOOKING ANY CRUISE SHIP-ASK TO INSPECT THE CREW QUARTERS !

A ship is no more sanitary or safe than the conditions found in the CREW QUARTERS!

I have to admit, cruises have never appealed to me. I was even offered a free one earlier this year and turned it down. I can only point at information in the public domain; I can't speak for Thom.

As for carbon offsetting, true it takes time for the trees to grow - but what if a scheme is buying up mature forests so they won't be chopped down? I'd want to know more about a scheme before judging it.

Nice to see Hartmann and all the so called progressives are walking their talk.

Note paragraph five identifying Holland Cruise lines among others who are the most egregious.

That is the trouble with celebrity and power, after a while, everything becomes a compromise.

Wake up!

That's from 2001. What has happened since?

Morning, Sue-

I found this, from earlier this year:

Common Dreams - May 2007

Ships are designed so that they can discharge their effluents into the sea. What are the possible solutions to such an endless possibility, open to the arbitrary decisions of the captain of a ship, who is traditionally considered to have the powers of a king over his little kingdom at sea?

The assumption has always been that the sea can consume our wastes.

quote:

Originally posted by /rén:
Ships are designed so that they can discharge their effluents into the sea. What are the possible solutions to such an endless possibility, open to the arbitrary decisions of the captain of a ship, who is traditionally considered to have the powers of a king over his little kingdom at sea?

The assumption has always been that the sea can consume our wastes.

Well, I guess the oceans are expected to consume a lot of our wastes.

"A vast swath of the Pacific, twice the size of Texas, is full of a plastic stew that is entering the food chain. Scientists say these toxins are causing obesity, infertility...and worse."
http://www.bestlifeonline.com/cms/publish/health-fitnes...astic_are_we_2.shtml

I can't afford a ship cruise to anywhere. I can barely afford an auto cruise to the supermarket. If the dollar keeps plunging, I'll be taking a walking cruise to the supermarket.

Retired Monk
"Ideology is a disease"

Hey, guys, she is not interested in truth; her purpose here is to act as head body gurad for Hartmann.

C'mon Chris. It was an honest question, and drew some honest answers.

Who knew that a pleasure cruise to Mexico would reap such rewards.

quote:

That's from 2001. What has happened since?

Oh, well that's easy: since then, they found a way for cruise ships to be environment friendly.

As I said:

quote:

There's no excuse for this, none. And there's no excuse for the autor of The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight to participate in this. What happened? Did he 'move on', or something?

If the environmental claims made on the cruise site are not true, or the steps they make are insufficient, then I'm sorry Air America chose to offer a cruise and that Thom is going along. But it is his choice. We all make compromises all the time. I don't expect him to be perfect or to never compromise; he is a human, and one who has done a great deal of good in his life, IMO. Beating him up is not going to help him to do more good.

Hand wringers expect Thom to skip a cruise down Mexico way because they don't like ships?
Maybe Thom doesn't choose to live like a rabbit hiding in the bushes.

quote:

We all make compromises all the time. I don't expect him to be perfect or to never compromise; he is a human, and one who has done a great deal of good in his life, IMO. Beating him up is not going to help him to do more good.

Yes, I can see Hartmann makes compromises all the time and this is especially true in his political ideology. Shilling Edwards campaign is one of those necessary compromises you are referring to. The interesting juxtaposition is that while he does so, he is also bashing corporations along with Rupert Murdock on a recent show; all the while neglecting a significant fact: i.e., that Edwards accepted 800,000 from a company owned by Murdock for a book deal. The issue is not perfection but integrity. If you had any, you might understand what I am talking about.

Carry on with your bullshit.

I'll go on the cruise IF they let me drive the boat.

quote:

The issue is not perfection but integrity. If you had any, you might understand what I am talking about.

Oops.

Listen to Thom riff on Thomas Jefferson and slavery on Tuesday's show, or read the section "Myth: 'The Founders wrote slavery into the Constitution' in "What Would Jefferson Do?", Chapter 5. Have you given up your slaves? "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone". John 8:7.

quote:

Have you given up your slaves?

How much choice are we left with? In other words, is that question entirely fair?

quote:

Listen to Thom riff on Thomas Jefferson and slavery on Tuesday's show, or read the section "Myth: 'The Founders wrote slavery into the Constitution' in "What Would Jefferson Do?", Chapter 5. Have you given up your slaves?

Ah, has that damned genocidal ass been retrieved from the Land of Fear & Silence & Oblivion? Like a good disciple, would you care to have a little conversation about him and his ways, rather than point to a program that isn't currently online?

I promise you that before the rooster crows you will have denied your master three times.

quote:

"He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone". John 8:7.

And don't exclude yourSelf.

More quotes?

In case you hadn't noticed, I contributed to that other discussion already.

Tuesday's show. It was in the last half hour.

quote:

How much choice are we left with? In other words, is that question entirely fair?

Tougher than the choice of whether to co-operate with Air America, certainly, but it made the point that we all have to make choices every day; none of us are perfect - it just is not practicable.

Welcome to Pub Hartmann where hystaria and rationalizations rule the day.

Sue, that's all true, but MY point was, that if you're born into this society, you indirectly own slaves, and there's not a damn thing you can do about it, Jefferson notwithstanding (well put, Adrian.) However, that doesn't mean I have to feel compelled to start taking cruises and mess up the environment. Especially after having written a book on how maybe we should save our environment.

For instance, I know I indirectly make use of slave labor, but that doesn't mean that I can now go around dropping H-bombs.

Chris - yes, that would be another way of putting it.

Loki, insecurity is the foundation of those who rationalize the world around them; they need to give themselves permission waffle on everything rather than take a stand. Flip flopping is their sacred creed.

One day they will be sitting in their rocking chair years wondering why it all slipped by them; they will find comfort from their existential angst by sitting in front of their computer all day long day dreaming about the life they might have had...

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisDeGetmon:
Loki, insecurity is the foundation of those who rationalize the world around them; they need to give themselves permission waffle on everything rather than take a stand. Flip flopping is their sacred creed.

One day they will be sitting in their rocking chair years wondering why it all slipped by them; they will find comfort from their existential angst by sitting in front of their computer all day long day dreaming about the life they might have had...

People, particularly when subsistence needs are met, pretty much create they life they want, consciously or sub-consciously, and then complain about it rather than taking responsibility for it when they don't like the result.

There are those things in the environment around them, socially and economically that can prod an individual into one direction or another. Being at effect of experience rather than cause of it is hidden mental trickery.

If I don't like my life, guess who did it? If I like it, guess who did it?

Though I don't think society functions very well, that doesn't preclude the creation of a personally satisfying experience of my own being in the way that I relate to that dysfunction.

One can moan and groan about a blizzard, and still enjoy the beauty of the fairyland landscape it creates. A transendence can often occur mentally, if not physically. There is still the snow to be shoveled.

Retired Monk
"Ideology is a disease"

Poly, I respect what you add to this forum. And I intend to answer this on another thread, later.

Chris,

Fear is everything. It's the prime cause of all denial. People would rather gas 6 million Jews than perform a little introspection.
And as long as this is the case, the world keeps dying. It's that straightforward.

Okay.

"All the things we learn from our callers".
Yee-haw, yippee-yay.

Problem is, goddammit (sorry Jesus), nothing's done with the caller's point.
The slavery issue is addressed half-assedly, in a highly political manner with a touch of patheticness ("the tears in his eyes", shouted he) on top. What's mentioned is Jefferson's rationalizing his slaveholdership, and that's instantly projected onto the audience, who are (of course) just a bunch of hypocrites as well for looking at a China-made computer screen or some such. Herewith — both oddly and effectively — Jefferson's rationalization is being rationalized. "Sure, he did sum'n wrong and this and that and let's not deny it, BUT LET'S TALK ABOUT ALL OF US RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW!" — and continue to worship the Jefferson figure with all our might, pretty please with a cherry on top, because otherwise my books might be exposed for disproportionately exalting the $2 guy, which would make me look pretty damned bad, which needs to be prevented at all cost, thank you very much.

The caller asked about Jefferson's racism, not merely about his slaveholdership. It wasn't f-u-c-k-ing addressed. Which, pardon me, makes a certain RadioTalkShowHost seem pretty damned racist whether he wants to or not.

What was that he exclaimed, his voice trembling with feigned emotion, quoting the Great Hero?
"GEOGRAPHICAL LINE AND MARKED PRINCIPLE" (exclamation mark exclamation mark exclamation mark)!
How's about addressing the *geographical line* that Mr Hero Man so needed to move farther and bloody farther to the West at the expense of those who had been living there for nobody-knows-how-long but thousands of years at least? What did the genocidal monster designate as the marked principle there, pray tell?

Discuss that. Anything else ain't contributing, seeing as everybody already "knows" that. That practicable, perhaps?

"All the things we learn from our callers".
O yee-haw, o yippee-ki-yay.

I have to say, I too am pretty disappointed in Thom taking and promoting a cruise.

He is (IMO) one of the most intelligent, well informed people I have EVER heard talk, and so I suspect he realizes the hypocrisy of his being a part of this cruise.

I guess, we, his listeners and supporters (the ones who buy his books) may not understand his reasons for deciding to participate, but I for one do feel that he could have taken a stronger stand by not going on this trip, if he felt strongly
enough about it.

Honestly, if I had the money, I'd be interested in taking the cruise.

Such a trip would not raise any eyebrows if it were a FoxNews trip. As for the environmental concerns raised by cruise ships: 1) the ship is going to sail with or without Thom Hartmann, and 2) the integrity of the message of AirAmerica supersedes the concerns raised by lap top liberals, and their assorted critics, all who quietly do some shopping at Wal-Mart or invest their money in distressed property/Euros/stock portfolios that include all the usual suspects who bring home the profit.

So, I hope Thom enjoys the trip.

yeah but Kate, most of us haven't written a book about the environment and global warming. (or shop at Wal-Mart for that matter).

Sorry Kate, don't mean to attack your statement, I just was pretty upset by this, but I understand having to 'play the game' at times, for the "greater" good. He probably plays to a much broader audience this way, and he understands that the more wide his appeal, the more he is able to communicate his message.

We all need to make peace with our lives, meljomur.

Or move out of our glass house(s).

But, people who live in glass houses don't throw stones. And, I have to say, Thom has been amazingly accommodating to those who frequent his message boards.

Its should not...

Who said I was referring to Thom?

You're right; the common expression includes "should", and I fixed it up to fit my idea.

As for glass houses, we all have one.

If people criticize Thom for going on an AirAmerica cruise with his cohorts,
where were the same critics when Algore was writing books about carbon footprints and suggesting "we" should drive battery cars all the while he is burning 4 times the average running his house, flying on private jets, being escorted in limos, owning the largest SUV's made, etc... and collecting money from poor saps to fund his new business of collecting feel good money from poor saps?

Algore gets a trophy for being a complete hypocrite and Thomm gets crap for going on a cruise?
Please.

Algore. Wonder who that is.
Thomm. Wonder who that is.


FTR> I think Al Gore (sic) and Thom Hartmann (sic) are equally full of it.

Loki. Wonder who that is.