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    Discussion Community    Forums  Hop To Forum Categories  Thom's Books on eco/politics  Hop To Forums  Unequal Protection    Corporate Personhood and War

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Picture of Sue N
Posted
Mark from San Francisco called towards the end of the first hour of last Monday’s show and said that the Military Industrial Complex’s profit motive for war has got out of hand, saying something needs to be done. Thom said he would take it a step further and take away corporate personhood, as described in “Unequal Protection”.

Back in the old days, kings could not go to war without borrowing money from the very wealthy. What if interest had not been allowed? Would there have been less war then and now?

To what extent do you think that war and armed conflict would be reduced, if corporate personhood were taken away?


Sue N.
 
Posts: 4624 | Location: UK | Registered: 16 November 2004Report This Post
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In the old days the King would also be on the battlefield. Would make a difference to war culture if those calling for a war had then to attend in battle Smiler


When the world is run by fools it is the duty of intelligence to disobey
 
Posts: 1723 | Location: Perth, Australia | Registered: 02 August 2001Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by KennyMac:
In the old days the King would also be on the battlefield. Would make a difference to war culture if those calling for a war had then to attend in battle Smiler


It certainly would! And CEOs would be the equivalent of knights who also went to war and jousted.

One question struck me - in Islam, interest is forbidden. You can take a share in a business and benefit from the profits, but you can't just invest to get interest. I wonder how their wars, and the buseinesses that produce weapons, have been financed?


Sue N.
 
Posts: 4624 | Location: UK | Registered: 16 November 2004Report This Post
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I'd guess that those Islamic fundamentalists, like the Christian eqivalent just ignore the bits they don't like.

I wonder if the Saudi Royal family earn interest on their business investment dealings? The Bin Ladens?

Mmm.


When the world is run by fools it is the duty of intelligence to disobey
 
Posts: 1723 | Location: Perth, Australia | Registered: 02 August 2001Report This Post
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Financing of wars has always been tremendously risky but also extremely profitable, since the winner takes all the possessions of the loser. Borrowing money to wage war has usually been accomplished by a promise to split up the booty with the financiers, which is more like buying a share of the business.

The opposite model was cathedrals, which were necessarily built with interest-bearing loans.


-- The only time we see the middle of the road is as we run from side to side. R.O.Clark
 
Posts: 3959 | Location: Santa Fe | Registered: 11 June 2003Report This Post
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I wonder how the pyramids were financed.


Sue N.
 
Posts: 4624 | Location: UK | Registered: 16 November 2004Report This Post
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The opposite model was cathedrals, which were necessarily built with interest-bearing loans.



Mmm. Plus the Church had (and still has) many interests in the banking/financing order. A no lose situation if you convince the people they need the church and its path to your salvation. They will gladly pay you for it.


When the world is run by fools it is the duty of intelligence to disobey
 
Posts: 1723 | Location: Perth, Australia | Registered: 02 August 2001Report This Post
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I wonder how the pyramids were financed.



Do aliens have banks? Smiler


When the world is run by fools it is the duty of intelligence to disobey
 
Posts: 1723 | Location: Perth, Australia | Registered: 02 August 2001Report This Post
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Even in the days that kings went to battle, the burden of the fighting, and the taxes to pay for it, fell on poorer people. We need a system where the ones who benefit the most from war risk the most. So if the country was being invaded, then everyone would fight, but if it was just the leaders and the military industrial complex who wanted war, then they and their shareholders should be sent to the colliseum to fight it out in person, and leave the rest to get on with their lives.


Sue N.
 
Posts: 4624 | Location: UK | Registered: 16 November 2004Report This Post
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Do aliens have banks?


Yeah, the Bank of Uranus, Saturn & Hydra.


Sue N.
 
Posts: 4624 | Location: UK | Registered: 16 November 2004Report This Post
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I think this might just go back to the argument of reinstating the draft for this war, however I would imagine the children of the rich would always avoid it no matter what (George W...)
But in a fair and just world it would seem to me the people that wanted the war should have to make the sacrafice for it, not profit from it!
 
Posts: 176 | Location: Seattle/UK | Registered: 17 March 2007Report This Post
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Good idea, reinstate the draft - and draft corporations! Completely take them over for the duration of the war. They would get no profits, just military-level pay for the employees and recompense for costs.


Sue N.
 
Posts: 4624 | Location: UK | Registered: 16 November 2004Report This Post
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More rights for the downtrodden corporations!
quote:
Student's Rights or Corporate Personhood?
Free Speech Hypocrisy at the Supreme Court
By ANTHONY DiMAGGIO
June 26, 2007

The Bush administration's successes in appointing its preferred nominees to the Supreme Court appear to have paid off in light of the judicial body's recent rulings favoring corporate power over free speech rights. Monday's Supreme Court students rights and lobbying decisions, while masked as efforts to prevent drug abuse and promote free speech, appear more likely to consolidate big business dominance, while giving short shrift to fundamental First Amendment protections.

Problematic in-and-of-itself is the court's student free speech ruling, which constitutes a major step toward curtailing student expression. In a 5-4 decision, the ruling reaffirmed the suspension of an Alaskan high school student who held up a banner with the words "Bong Hits 4 Jesus" across the street from his school during the 2002 Olympic parade. The student, Joseph Frederick, was disciplined for violating a school policy, due to his alleged advocacy of drug use. Although Frederick was standing on a public sidewalk at the time of the incident, school Principal Deborah Morse claimed that Frederick was taking part in a school sanctioned event ­ hence his actions were seen as reflecting poorly on the institution as a whole.

Monday's ruling is not the first attack on high school free speech rights, but merely the most recent, as the Supreme Court's 1988 Hazelwood decision is commonly hailed as the first major decision aimed at restricting student expression. The Hazelwood case set a lower free speech threshold for high school student publications, which were not to be classified as "public forums," but rather became the subject of the prior review of high school administrators, many of whom have shown interest in censoring controversial stories and editorials.

While the Supreme Court was moving to demolish the free speech rights of real people, it set a new precedent for the strengthening of the First Amendment "rights" of artificial constructs, as it moved to weaken restrictions on use of political advertisements by major corporations. The new decision (which specifically ruled on the political advertising activities of an anti-abortion Wisconsin group) looks as if it will roll back a limitation put forth in the 2002 Campaign Reform Act (a.k.a. the McCain and Feingold bill) which prohibited corporations and unions from financing political ads during the two months before general elections and the month before primaries.

The ruling was defended by Chief Justice John Roberts, who claimed that, "the First Amendment requires us to err on the side of protecting political speech rather than suppressing it." Such a rationale is difficult to take seriously though, in light of the court's flagrant contempt for the rights of real persons, as seen in the student free speech case, and its preference for artificial ones. The decision is also dubious, not only in its faulty historical reasoning (the Founding Fathers clearly did not have corporations in mind when they were laying out the free speech protections in the Bill of Rights), but also in terms of its implications for democracy.

While the Supreme Court ruling purports to have both labor unions and corporations in mind, the reality of campaign finance and election lobbying is heavily tilted in favor of corporate America and big business. In the 2006 mid-term election, for example, big business gave over 17 times as much in campaign contributions to candidates as did organized labor. Overall, business donations accounted for 73.5% of total contributions, whereas labor donations accounted for a mere 4.2% of contributions in the 2006 election cycle. In such a lopsided lobbying/advertising environment, it is difficult to believe that the Supreme Court's ruling will somehow contribute to a strengthening of pluralistic, democratic competition amongst different interest groups. Quite the contrary, the court's ruling will likely further cement the "shadow cast on society by big business" to borrow an insight John Dewey.

Although the recent federal rulings represent a major threat to American democracy, there are signs of hope, albeit on a more decentralized level. While the McCain-Feingold bill itself did much to enable a rebirth of "soft-money" contributions to local candidates and parties (ironically strengthening corporate lobbying power in the name of limiting it) state legislatures have stepped forward to reaffirm free speech rights for real people. State legislatures in Washington, Illinois, Michigan, and Oregon have proposed free speech bills this year that will protect students in higher education from the possible censorship of school administrators. Such initiatives, should they be implemented in these states, represent a major victory for those committed to free speech. While recent rulings such as Hosty v. Carter have sought to limit free speech in higher education exclusively to papers designated by universities and colleges as "publicly designated forums," the bills arising from within these states would extend publishing protections to all school newspapers, regardless of their technical titles. The Illinois College Campus Press Act, for example, circumvents the "publicly designated forum" restrictions entirely by designating all school papers as free forums for student expression. The bill has gained the support of civil liberties watchdogs such as the ACLU, as the initiative was heralded by Edwin Yohnka (Illinois ACLU Director of Communications and Public Policy) as "a major step in restoring the free speech and free press rights of student journalists on our college campuses."

Of course, such bills are still more the exception than the norm. Similar bills will need to be introduced and passed either in every state, or at the federal level, for student free expression to be ensured. In addition, there is still the issue of big business dominance of campaign finance and political advertising. Major steps toward eliminating legal bribery (a.k.a. political campaign contributions) and corporate dominance of advertising will be necessary if we are to move toward truly democratic, open elections. As John Dewey so presciently warned in his day: "talk of democracy has little content when big business rules the life of the country through its control of the means of production, exchange, the press, and other means of publicity, propaganda, and communication." Only time will tell whether the American people are up to the challenge of taking back their democracy from the corporate and political elite and their plutocratic stranglehold over government.

Anthony DiMaggio has taught Middle East Politics and American Government at Illinois State University. He is the author of the forthcoming book, Mass Media, Mass Propaganda: Understanding American News in the "War on Terror" (December 2007). He can be reached at: Adimag2@uic.edu


Remembrance of the Fascists may give rise to dangerous insights...
Herbert Marcuse
 
Posts: 3909 | Location: California, Bay Area | Registered: 31 October 2004Report This Post
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quote:
...As John Dewey so presciently warned in his day: "talk of democracy has little content when big business rules the life of the country through its control of the means of production, exchange, the press, and other means of publicity, propaganda, and communication." Only time will tell whether the American people are up to the challenge of taking back their democracy from the corporate and political elite and their plutocratic stranglehold over government.


The problem in finding a solution to this debacle lies in finding a more civil method of dialogue and cooperation than what 'war' offers that can be agreed upon--something that I think was part of the ideal of the American founders through what I know as a 'Jeffersonian democracy'--one that prioritizes 'individual rights' not able to be infringed upon without public disclosure justifying the infringement, and one defined by a democratic order that is 'confirmed by'--but is not 'limited to'--majority rule.

But, as this thread suggests, wealth provides its main influence by, in one way or the other, financing war. A condition of state that would rather exaggerate contentions between-- than encourage comparisons among--various peoples. In a very real sense, 'divide and conquer' is true--especially for those who are able to define the terms. And, that takes money--a sort of 'self-perpetuating motive' that is the 'power' of wealth--a 'power' that sustains itself through its own 'power' to create, and materially sustain, its own status. However, I think an important point of contention in the long run--as Sun Tzu stated in The Art of War--is, if the war is not morally pertinent, the public will eventually pull back support--unless, the 'threat continues to appear imminent' (and, in this 'self-perpetuating' fashion, something only wealth can materially sustain by financing continued attacks)....

And, the beat goes on...

Will overcoming this--'stearing it, somehow, into calmer waters'--take money, also? If so, you lose...'war' is truer to 'profit' than is 'peace'....
 
Posts: 841 | Location: Texas | Registered: 07 May 2007Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Sue N:
Good idea, reinstate the draft - and draft corporations! Completely take them over for the duration of the war. They would get no profits, just military-level pay for the employees and recompense for costs.


It's the best idea yet. After all, wars are "national efforts". This would nip them in the pocket book.

Retired Monk
"Ideology is a disease"
 
Posts: 3412 | Location: denver co | Registered: 17 April 2007Report This Post
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It seems to me that the opposition to such an idea would eminate from one of the powerful Eastern land-foundations (like Rockefeller); They might say, "nothing here changes...and GET OFF OF MY LAND!!" Cause, what was, wasn't. What is, might be. And what will be, will be better! Smiler
 
Posts: 582 | Location: New York City | Registered: 13 February 2007Report This Post
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