Anti capitalist horse shit. Meaningless metaphors and useless analogy, what the hell do eagles and whales have to do with the topic other than waste my time with propaganda?
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
Posts: 8264 | Location: Fl | Registered: 05 July 2001
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. ." Alexander Tytler
Sawdust, I'm not surprised you would call it propaganda. Your Alexander Tytler quote is propaganda. Strike the word "voters" and substitute "super wealthy" or "corporate elitists" and you'd be describing today's reality. The basic premise of the video is the more power the corporations get, the less power, we the people have - that's propaganda to you?
I assumed you watched the video as I also assume you have been paying attention to events of the past few years; if thoses things haven't cause you to reassess your thinking... there's nothing I say that will.
Posts: 486 | Location: North Texas | Registered: 16 February 2006
The quote is propaganda if you believe there is such a thing as a free lunch. If people were concerned about paying for their own well being as much as they are concerned about getting someone else to pay for it, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
I watched as much of the film as I could and found it long on production and short on content.
Here's the rest of the quote, for your amusement. Some say it is an accurate quotation, some say it's urban legend. Doesn't matter to me, I see it in our society.
quote:
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. From that time on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
The average age of the world's great civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to great courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependency; from dependency back again to bondage."
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
Posts: 8264 | Location: Fl | Registered: 05 July 2001
I just looked up the entire quote, and I see you posted it too. Tytler seened to to have been a wise ole bird. It seems as if we have gone full circle regarding his prediction. Perhaps he didn't foresee the growth of corporate influence and media manipulation.
Unfortunately the people have not voted for the candidates who promised them the most benefits from the public treasury, but instead have voted for candidates who have used fear, prejudice, greed, and selfishness - and anything else to appeal to our "lowest inner being". While "we" are preoccupied watching the growth of our few shares of stock, amusing ourselves with our sports, soap operas, and movies, our leaders (mostly whom have been bought by corporare interest) are passing laws which further tilts the playing field in favor of the already wealthy, while promising the rest of "us" that we need to be protected from the terrorist,that we need a flag burning amendment or a prayer in school amendment.
No, Mr. Sawdust, we ain't getting Sh** but a promise; that's where Alexander Tytler got it wrong. He overestimated the intelligence of the average voter, he overestimated the magnitude of our democracy; and he underestimated the power of wealth and he apparantly didn't see the corporate personhood. It is not the "voters" who are voting themselves largess from the public treasury. But, it is the "Haves" and "Have Mores" who are.
As far as the rest of Tytler's quote, "...from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency......". We are just about "there". But....
The quotation is from the 1801 collection of his lectures:
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. From that time on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
The average age of the world's great civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to great courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependency; from dependency back again to bondage."
Posts: 486 | Location: North Texas | Registered: 16 February 2006
Unfortunately the people have not voted for the candidates who promised them the most benefits from the public treasury, but instead have voted for candidates who have used fear, prejudice, greed, and selfishness - and anything else to appeal to our "lowest inner being".
I beg to differ, imagine that. Ever hear the old expression, "all politics is local"? The majority of our governance happens because of our votes in local elections, the House and Senate. We wouldn't be in Iraq if it weren't for resolutions post 9/11 that our congresscritters passed that allowed our military to go there. We wouldn't be able to keep them there if not for our congresscritters authorizing money to be spent there.
Don't fool yourself. Your Senators and Representatives come back on their rare trips to their districts and pat themselves on the back for all the good work they have done locally on our behalf in hopes of getting re-elected. They don't come back and pat themselves on the back for the money they didn't spend, they congratulate themselves for what they do.
Look at the moron that wanted to build the bridge to no where in Alaska. He got it passed and then there was such a public out cry, congress finally said the bridge, which wasn't needed for anything but logging, couldn't be built. Do you think that not building the bridge saved us any money? Hell no, they told the Senator, Stevens I think it was, take the money and find something else in your district to spend it on.
If you think that American politics is about George Bush, you don't know much about American politics.
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
Posts: 8264 | Location: Fl | Registered: 05 July 2001
Originally posted by Sawdust: "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. From that time on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
The average age of the world's great civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to great courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependency; from dependency back again to bondage."
It is said to have been published by Sir Alex Fraser Tyler (1742-1813) in 1801 from his lectures on The Decline and Fall of the Athenian Republic. The USA hadn't been going long then, so he was in effect only talking about Athens.
Besides, the largess from the public treasury is increasingly going to politicians and their corporate friends, and not the public.
Democracy is an experiment that is still young. I see pendulums swinging; there's plenty of hope yet.
Sue N.
Posts: 4624 | Location: UK | Registered: 16 November 2004
If you ask me, we are some where near the selfishness stage. In Europe, the largess has already reached the public. Tax rates are confiscatory and European society is well on it's way to cradle to grave abdication of personal welfare to the State.
In this country, we are well on our way to creating a country of leaches wanting to attach themselves to government. I'm opposed to most forms of corporate welfare but corporate welfare is a drop in the bucket when compared to the trillion dollar drug give away and the ponzi scheme called socialist security.
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
Posts: 8264 | Location: Fl | Registered: 05 July 2001
Sawdust, as Sue pointed out that Tytler sceanrio was based on an ancient Athenian model. There are differences, eg., Athens was more of a democracy; and we a republic.
You think that we are in the "selfishness" stage. I see several of the latter stages being played out simultanously. Selfishness, in that people want their tax cuts, they want their benefits, but don't care if others don't get theirs, they want other folk's kid to fight the war, don't care as long as "I" don't have to sacrafice, and as long they have a job and their stock is rising they don't care who get laid off.
Complacency: As song as I'm smug and happy with a roof over my head, what's me problem. I just want to be amused and I don't have time to study this issues - or I might just let someone else tell me.
Apathy: Kinda like complacency, but with the complexity of the world and not being able to sort through all the lies and deception, why bother. Half the people don't even vote because they believe it's just "two heads on the same monster" and it's not going to make any difference in their lives. And they just might be right.
Dependency: You said that there is no such thing as a free lunch. You said, "If people were concerned about paying for their own well being as much as they are concerned about someone else to pay for it,....". Well, I hardly know anyone like what you described. I see dependency in a totally different way.
One way I see dependency is the sense of shortages or scarcity. Which is mostly created by those in power. Shortage of good jobs, shortage of health care, shortage of good schools, shortage fuel and other materiel. But as you saw in the video the corporation through their advertising want us to want all their "stuff". They want us to go deep into debt to get it. They poison our kids with processed food so they can sell their drugs to cure whatever ails. They do, however, reward those who toe the company line in keeping the rest of us in check. The other part of depencency is that we have all these terrorists ruuning around and Big Brother is saying trust him. "Give up all you civil liberties,and give me an unlimited military budget, and by the way, let me give all my rich friends a big tax cut".
They want us to be dependent on them, but they don't want to be all that dependent on us.
Bondage: We aren't there yet, but the foundation is being laid. Get rid of all the checks and balances, appoint crony judges, setup vast surveilance, Co-opt the media, setup no protest zones, punish whistleblowers, regulate the internet, privatize the elections (E-voting with no paper trails and no exit polling). And who knows what the next step will be? Maybe pulloff some phony crisis as an excuse to suspend the Constitution - as Bush has already said the Constitution is but a G.D. piece of paper.
And back to another point you made:
"I beg to differ, imagine that. Ever hear the old expression, "all politics is local"? The majority of our governance happens because of our votes in local elections, the House and Senate. We wouldn't be in Iraq if it weren't for resolutions post 9/11 that our congresscritters passed that allowed our military to go there. We wouldn't be able to keep them there if not for our congresscritters authorizing money to be spent there.
Don't fool yourself. Your Senators and Representatives come back on their rare trips to their districts and pat themselves on the back for all the good work they have done locally on our behalf in hopes of getting re-elected. They don't come back and pat themselves on the back for the money they didn't spend, they congratulate themselves for what they do."
On this we are not differing that much at all. As far as politics being local it depend on what you mean. Around here most people couldn't tell you who their city councilman is or how he voted a certain issue. But I get your point when it comes to U.S, Senators and Congressmen. Yes, there is a "pork" factor which they often come home and brag about, but often that pork they say they are bringing home to the people don't even compare to what they do for the special interests and most of the time it ain't 'real pork', it's just the smell; it's just enough for the people to think they're doing something for them. I recall what Sen. Hollings said on 60 Minutes. He spent half his time fundraising and the special interests give him bills to sponsor that are already written out.
Sawdust, I think you and I can definitely agree that "there's something rotten in Denmark", we just don't agree on what it is.
Posts: 486 | Location: North Texas | Registered: 16 February 2006
cradle to grave abdication of personal welfare to the State.
When you buy health insurance, are you abdicating your personal welfare to the Corporation?
Insurance is a way of spreading the risks. How better to spread them than to share them with the whole population? How better to keep the costs for all down than to insure with a non-profit organisation that does not pay its CEOs millions or even billions? How better to ensure oversight of that organisation by making it a branch of a democratic government answerable to the people who care about the quality of care as well as the cost of care, rather than a few shareholders who only care about profits? We've all experienced how insurance companies will do all they can to not pay out.
Sue N.
Posts: 4624 | Location: UK | Registered: 16 November 2004
When you buy health insurance, are you abdicating your personal welfare to the Corporation?
Sue, No, you are opting into a system that spreads the risk over a larger number of people but more than that. Insurance companies are investment companies and are able to take premiums, spin them into investments and create an even larger pool of money to pay benefits from. The individual cannot do what policy holders can do together.
By purchasing insurance, we don't abdicate our personal welfare to a Corporation, we are making a choice about how we are going to take charge of our personal welfare.
That's the theory, I know there are problems with insurance companies. Don't feel compelled to enumerate, I already know.
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Sawdust, as Sue pointed out that Tytler sceanrio was based on an ancient Athenian model
Simon, if we don't understand history, we are bound to repeat it. I never intended my using that quote to represent a linear progression model to be used to illustrate the decline of Western Civilization.
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They want us to be dependent on them, but they don't want to be all that dependent on us.
You have this totally backwards. Corporations are totally dependent on us. Get the whole nation to stop buying Pringels and see how long the Pringels factory stays open. You're upset that corporations use advertising to buy Cheetos, which actually contain no cheese, but what you really want is control of what other people want to buy. Everyone gets to chose. You are concerned that corporations are trying to sell sugar to children. What you really want is government to take over nutritional education that should be happening with parents. I have friends whose kids don't live on sugar. Why? That's the way they were raised by their parents.
The bottom line here as I see it is that freedom is a difficult concept for some to support when we see other people doing things that are inconsistant with our world views. Fat people want to sue McDonalds for making them fat. McDonalds doesn't make anyone fat. People make themselves fat by eating too many Big Macs. They are free to chose, carrot or Big Mac. It's not the governments responsibility to make everyones life perfect.
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
Posts: 8264 | Location: Fl | Registered: 05 July 2001
Originally posted by Sawdust: Insurance companies are investment companies and are able to take premiums, spin them into investments and create an even larger pool of money to pay benefits from.
That sounds good, but if practice is as good as theory, why does America pay more per capita for health insurance than any other country, yet many Americans have no health cover, and some that do, still end up bankrupted by illness?
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Corporations are totally dependent on us. Get the whole nation to stop buying Pringels and see how long the Pringels factory stays open.
In theory, yes, but how often does this happen in practice?
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You're upset that corporations use advertising to buy Cheetos, which actually contain no cheese, but what you really want is control of what other people want to buy.
First and foremost, I want advertising to tell the truth and the whole truth, so that people can make informed decisions about what to buy. Secondly, I don’t want advertising to persuade people to do things which are really bad for them, particularly children. So, I’d ban tobacco advertising, since smoking has proven to be risky not only for the smoker, but also those subjected to others’ smoke. I wouldn’t ban moderate advertising for Cheetos, providing they don’t actually do harm when eaten in sensible quantities.
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You are concerned that corporations are trying to sell sugar to children. What you really want is government to take over nutritional education that should be happening with parents. I have friends whose kids don't live on sugar. Why? That's the way they were raised by their parents.
I’d like schools and parents to be singing from the same hymn sheet. Children are influenced by their peers and their teachers as well as by their parents. If parents say that sugary drinks are bad, but schools are selling them and their friends are drinking them and they see adverts for them on TV, then there is a good chance that the kids will end up drinking them. I would not ban such drinks, since they are OK in moderation, but I’d certainly want them out of schools.
It’s great if parents understand about nutrition, but if teaching about nutrition is left just to the parents, then kids of parents who do not understand about it will suffer. Education is a great way to ensure that the next generation of parents are better informed.
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Fat people want to sue McDonalds for making them fat. McDonalds doesn't make anyone fat. People make themselves fat by eating too many Big Macs. They are free to chose, carrot or Big Mac. It's not the governments responsibility to make everyone’s life perfect.
If McDonalds has been honest about what’s in a Big Mac, then they should not be sued. If we want to be able to make such informed decisions, then we need to get together (i.e. enable government) to insist that manufacturers do tell us all we need to know to make informed choices about their products, and that they are honest.
Sue N.
Posts: 4624 | Location: UK | Registered: 16 November 2004
In theory, yes, but how often does this happen in practice?
And that's the point. Pringels exist because people buy them and like them. Freedom enables us to eat reconstituted deep fried artificial potato chips. It's as it should be.
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First and foremost, I want advertising to tell the truth and the whole truth, so that people can make informed decisions about what to buy.
To protect who and for what purpose? They list ingredience on the bag as well as nutritional content. The rest is up to us to make intelligent choices.
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I’d like schools and parents to be singing from the same hymn sheet.
Whose responsibility is it to make people care about these issues. I look at it as a matter of personal choice. Government has a responsibility to insure our food source isn't toxic but it's the individual who is responsible for what they stuff in their face. That's where governmental responsibility should end.
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If McDonalds has been honest about what’s in a Big Mac, then they should not be sued.
So you actually believe that people need to be warned that a diet hamburgers, dehydrated onions and cheese might cause them some weight problems? Please talk to me about common sense. Where does common sense fit into this and what about personal responsibility.
Here's a little common sense for you. Eat too much of anything and you could have health problems. You can die from drinking too much water. There, now should everyone warn us about everything?
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
Posts: 8264 | Location: Fl | Registered: 05 July 2001
Were common sense to rule the day, we wouldn't be legislatively forced to literally bet against ourselves by buying into the protection-racket scam that is the modern insurance industry, and as a matter of Law, no less!
Would any sane person in their right mind ever bet against themselves, willingly?
Posts: 5740 | Location: Exile | Registered: 24 March 2003
Would any sane person in their right mind ever bet against themselves, willingly?
Ever been to Vegas?
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
Posts: 8264 | Location: Fl | Registered: 05 July 2001
Progress has been made in getting ingredients listed.
Unfortunately, whilst it might be obvious to the initiated that big macs would have a fair amount of fat, manufacturers put all sorts of ingredients into some foods that a cook making the same dish would not, whether to reduce costs or improve the consistency or change the appearance so you can't tell the real quality or make the dish keep its qualities longer. This is where common sense breaks down and ingredient lists, etc. are essential.
Sue N.
Posts: 4624 | Location: UK | Registered: 16 November 2004
Look into the world of 'aromas' and 'flavorings' -- yes, even (so-called) 'natural flavor' --and you'll find yourself up against an ultra-secretive factory in New Jersey.
These 'secret' ingredients are above and beyond ANY regulation whatsoever... and can easily be deadly toxins, as well.
Posts: 5740 | Location: Exile | Registered: 24 March 2003
These 'secret' ingredients are above and beyond ANY regulation whatsoever... and can easily be deadly toxins, as well.
Most folks don't know the half of it. My fellow beer aficionados (especially those over 50) might want to Google for beer cobalt (no quotes), to get Fun Facts such as this:
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In the 1960s, some breweries added cobalt salts to beer to stabilize the foam (resulting in exposures of 0.04-0.14 mg cobalt/kg). Some people who drank excessive amounts of beer (8-25 pints/day) experienced serious effects on the heart. In some cases, these effects resulted in death. Nausea and vomiting were usually reported before the effects on the heart were noticed.
Note that we're not talking contamination here -- cobalt was consciously & deliberately added by the manufacturer.
As far as cigarettes -- yes, I still smoke, Natural American Spirits lists a few additives that other companies use. Read closely & notice that it's kinda like taking a big ol' candy bar, dousing it in cheap perfume, then setting fire to it & inhaling the fumes.
Organic cigarettes are always an interesting ad. Sawdust is right with Pringles et al [I'm having some now, my brother works for P&G, my mom test marketed them in '60's, so maybe I'm biased] That di-hydrogen-monoxide or DHMO can kill you though, try not to inhale it...well here's a web site http://www.dhmo.org/
Blaise Pascal Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. Pensees
Posts: 2917 | Location: Sverige | Registered: 21 June 2005
Some people who drank excessive amounts of beer (8-25 pints/day) experienced serious effects on the heart. In some cases, these effects resulted in death. Nausea and vomiting were usually reported before the effects on the heart were noticed.
8-25 pints a day? MY GOD, if your drinking that much beer then cobalt is the last thing you should worry about. that would make me vomit.
Posts: 345 | Location: Colton | Registered: 18 February 2006
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