since you wanted it posted, here it is GG! enjoy the conventant your pope made with hitler and the nazi party!


His Holiness Pope Pius XI and the President of the German Reich, moved by a common desire to consolidate and enhance the friendly relations existing between the Holy See and the German Reich, wish to regulate the relations between the Catholic Church and the State for the whole territory of the German Reich in a permanent manner and on a basis acceptable to both parties. They have decided to conclude a solemn agreement, which will supplement the Concordats already concluded with certain individual German states, and will ensure for the remaining States fundamentally uniform treatment of their respective problems. For this purpose: His Holiness Pope Pius XI has appointed as his Plenipotentiary His Eminence the Most Reverend Lord Cardinal Eugenio Pacelli, his Secretary of State. The President of the German Reich has appointed as Plenipotentiary the Vice-Chancellor of the German Reich, Herr Franz von Papen. Who, having exchanged their respective credentials and found them to be in due and proper form, have agreed to the following articles:

Article 1 The German Reich guarantees freedom of profession and public practice of the Catholic religion. It acknowledges the right of the Catholic Church, within the limit of those laws which are applicable to all, to manage and regulate her own affairs independently, and, within the framework of her own competence, to publish laws and ordinances binding on her members.

Article 2 The Concordats concluded with Bavaria (1924), Prussia (1929) and Baden (1932) remain in force, and the rights and privileges of the Catholic Church recognized therein are secured unchanged within the territories of the States concerned. For the remaining States the agreements entered into in the present Concordat come into force in their entirety. These last are also binding for those States named above in so far as they affect matters not regulated by the regional Concordats or are complementary to the settlement already made. In the future, regional Concordats with States of the German Reich will be concluded only with the agreement of the Reich Government.

Article 3 In order to foster good relations between the Holy See and the German Reich, an Apostolic Nuncio will reside in the capital of the German Reich and an Ambassador of the German Reich at the Holy See, as heretofore.

Article 4 In its relations and correspondence with the bishops, clergy and other members of the Catholic Church in Germany, the Holy See enjoys full freedom. The same applies to the bishops and other diocesan officials in their dealings with the faithful in all matters belonging to their pastoral office. Instructions, ordinances, Pastoral Letters, official diocesan gazettes, and other enactments regarding the spiritual direction of the faithful issued by the ecclesiastical authorities within the framework of their competence (Art. 1, Sect. 2) may be published without hindrance and brought to the notice of the faithful in the form hitherto usual.

Article 5 In the exercise of their spiritual activities the clergy enjoy the protection of the State in the same way as State officials. The State will take proceedings in accordance with the general provisions of State law against any outrage offered to the clergy personally or directed against their ecclesiastical character, or any interference with the duties of their office, and in case of need will provide official protection.

Article 6 Clerics and Religious are freed from any obligation to undertake official offices and such obligations as, according to the provisions of Canon Law, are incompatible with the clerical or religious state. This applies particularly to the office of magistrate, juryman, member of Taxation Committee or member of the Fiscal Tribunal.

Article 7 The acceptance of an appointment or office in the State, or in any publicly constituted corporation dependent on the State, requires, in the case of the clergy, the nihil obstat of the Diocesan Ordinary of the individual concerned, as well as that of the Ordinary of the place in which the publicly constituted corporation is situated. The nihil obstat may be withdrawn at any time for grave reasons affecting ecclesiastical interests.

Article 8 The official income of the clergy is immune from distraint to the same extent as is the official salary of officials of the Reich and State.

Article 9 The clergy may not be required by judicial and other officials to give information concerning matters which have been entrusted to them while exercising the care of souls, and which therefore come within the obligation of pastoral secrecy.

Article 10 The wearing of clerical dress or of a religious habit on the part of lay folk, or of clerics or religious who have been forbidden to wear them by a final and valid injunction made by the competent ecclesiastical authority and officially communicated to the State authority, is liable to the same penalty on the part of the State as the misuse of military uniform.

Article 11 The present organization and demarcation of dioceses of the Catholic Church in the German Reich remains in force. Such rearrangements of a bishopric or of an ecclesiastical province or of other diocesan demarcations as shall seem advisable in the future, so far as they involve changes within the boundaries of a German State, remain subject to the agreement of the Government of the State concerned. Rearrangements and alterations which extend beyond the boundaries of a German State require the agreement of the Reich Government, to whom it shall be left to secure the consent of the regional Government in question. The same applies to rearrangements or alterations of ecclesiastical Provinces involving several German States. The foregoing conditions do not apply to such ecclesiastical boundaries as are laid down merely in the interests of local pastoral care. In the case of any territorial reorganization within the German Reich, the Reich Government will communicate with the Holy See with a view to rearrangement of the organization and demarcation of dioceses.

Article 12 Without prejudice to the provisions of Article 11, ecclesiastical offices may be freely constituted and changed, unless the expenditure of State funds is involved. The creation and alteration of parishes shall be carried out according to principles with which the diocesan bishops are agreed, and for which the Reich Government will endeavor to secure uniform treatment as far as possible from the State Governments.

Article 13 Catholic parishes, parish and diocesan societies, episcopal sees, bishoprics and chapters, religious Orders and Congregations, as well as institutions, foundations and property which are under the administration of ecclesiastical authority, shall retain or acquire respectively legal competence in the civil domain according to the general prescriptions of civil law. They shall remain publicly recognized corporations in so far as they have been such hitherto; similar rights may be granted to the remainder in accordance with those provisions of the law which apply to all.

Article 14. As a matter of principle the Church retains the right to appoint freely to all Church offices and benefices without the co-operation of the State or of civil communities, in so far as other provisions have not been made in previous Concordats mentioned in Article 2. The regulation made for appointment to the Metropolitan see of Freiburg (the Ecclesiastical Province of the Upper Rhine) is to be duly applied to the two suffragan bishoprics of Rottenburg and Mainz, as well as to the bishopric of Meissen. With regard to Rottenburg and Mainz the same regulation holds for appointments to the Cathedral Chapter, and for the administration of the right of patronage. Furthermore, there is accord on the following points: Catholic clerics who hold an ecclesiastical office in Germany or who exercise pastoral or educational functions must: (a) Be German citizens. (b) Have matriculated from a German secondary school. (c) Have studied philosophy and theology for at least three years at a German State University, a German ecclesiastical college, or a papal college in Rome. The Bull nominating Archbishops, Coadjutors "cum jure successionis", or appointing a "Praelatus nullius", will not be issued until the name of the appointee has been submitted to the representative of the National Government in the territory concerned, and until it has been ascertained that no objections of a general political nature exist. By agreement between Church and State, Paragraph 1, sections (a) (b) and (c) may be disregarded or set aside.

Article 15 Religious Orders and Congregations are not subject to any special restrictions on the part of the State, either as regards their foundation, the erection of their various establishments, their number, the selection of members (save for the special provisions of paragraph 2 of this article), pastoral activity, education, care of the sick and charitable work, or as regards the management of their affairs and the administration of their property. Religious Superiors whose headquarters are within Germany must be German citizens. Provincials and other Superiors of Orders, whose headquarters lie outside Germany, have the right of visitation of those of their establishments which lie within Germany. The Holy See will endeavor to unsure that the provincial organization of conventual establishments within the German Reich shall be such that, as far as possible, German establishments do not fall under the jurisdiction of foreign provincials. Agreements may be made with the Reich Government in cases where the small number of houses makes a special German province impracticable, or where special grounds exist for the retention of a provincial organization which is firmly established and has acquired an historic nature.

Article 16 Before bishops take possession of their dioceses they are to take an oath of fealty either to the Reich Representative of the State concerned, or to the President of the Reich, according to the following formula: "Before God and on the Holy Gospels I swear and promise as becomes a bishop, loyalty to the German Reich and to the State of . . . I swear and promise to honor the legally constituted Government and to cause the clergy of my diocese to honor it. In the performance of my spiritual office and in my solicitude for the welfare and the interests of the German Reich, I will endeavor to avoid all detrimental acts which might endanger it."

Article 17 The property and other rights of public corporation, institutions, foundations and associations of the Catholic Church regarding their vested interests, are guaranteed according to the common law of the land. No building dedicated to public worship may be destroyed for any reason whatsoever without the previous consent of ecclesiastical authorities concerned.

Article 18 Should it become necessary to abrogate the performance of obligations undertaken by the State towards the Church, whether based on law, agreement or special charter, the Holy See and the Reich will elaborate in amicable agreement the principles according to which the abrogation is to be carried out. Legitimate traditional rights are to be considered as titles in law. Such abrogation of obligations must be compensated by an equivalent in favor of the claimant.

Article 19 Catholic Theological Faculties in State Universities are to be maintained. Their relation to ecclesiastical authorities will be governed by the respective Concordats and by special Protocols attached to the same, and with due regard to the laws of the Church in their regard. The Reich Government will endeavor to secure for all these Catholic Faculties in Germany a uniformity of practical administration corresponding to the general spirit and tenor of the various agreements concerned.

Article 20 Where other agreements do not exist, the Church has the right to establish theological and philosophical colleges for the training of its clergy, which institutions are to be wholly dependent on the ecclesiastical authorities if no State subsidies are sought. The establishment, management and administration if theological seminaries and hostels for clerical students, within the limits of the law applicable to all, is exclusively the prerogative of the ecclesiastical authorities.

Article 21 Catholic religious instruction in elementary, senior, secondary and vocational schools constitutes a regular portion of the curriculum, and is to be taught in accordance with the principles of the Catholic Church. In religious instruction, special care will be taken to inculcate patriotic, civic and social consciousness and sense of duty in the spirit of the Christian Faith and the moral code, precisely as in the case of other subjects. The syllabus and the selection of textbooks for religious instruction will be arranged by consultative agreement with the ecclesiastical authorities, and these latter have the right to investigate whether pupils are receiving religious instruction in accordance with the teachings and requirements of the Church. Opportunities for such investigation will be agreed upon with the school authorities.

Article 22 With regard to the appointment of Catholic religious instructors, agreement will be arrived at as a result of mutual consultation on the part of the bishop unfit for the further exercise of their teaching functions, either on pedagogical grounds or by reason of their moral conduct, may not be employed for religious instruction so long as the obstacle remains.

Article 23 The retention of Catholic denomination schools and the establishment of new ones, is guaranteed. In all parishes in which parents or guardians request it, Catholic elementary schools will be established, provided that the number of pupils available appears to be sufficient for a school managed and administered in accordance with the standards prescribed by the State, due regard being had to the local conditions of school organizations.

Article 24 In all Catholic elementary schools only such teachers are to be employed as are members of the Catholic Church, and who guarantee to fulfill the special requirements of a Catholic school. Within the frame-work of the general professional training of teachers, arrangements will be made which will secure the formation and training of Catholic teachers in accordance with the special requirements of Catholic denominational schools.

Article 25 Religious Orders and Congregations are entitled to establish and conduct private schools, subject to the general laws and ordinances governing education. In so far as these schools follow the curriculum prescribed for State schools, those attending them acquire the same qualifications as those attending State schools. The admission of members of religious Orders or Congregations to the teaching office, and their appointment to elementary, secondary or senior schools, are subject to the general conditions applicable to all.

Article 26 With certain reservations pending a later comprehensive regulation of the marriage laws, it is understood that, apart from cases of critical illness of one member of an engaged couple which does not permit of a postponement, and in cases of great moral emergency (the presence of which must be confirmed by the proper ecclesiastical authority), the ecclesiastical marriage ceremony should precede the civil ceremony. In such cases the pastor is in duty bound to notify the matter immediately at the Registrar's office.

Article 27 The Church will accord provision to the German army for the spiritual guidance of its Catholic officers, personnel and other officials, as well as for the families of the same. The administration of such pastoral care for the army is to be vested in the army bishop. The latter's ecclesiastical appointment is to be made by the Holy See after contact has been made with the Reich Government in order to select a suitable candidate who is agreeable to both parties. The ecclesiastical appointment of military chaplains and other military clergy will be made after previous consultations with the appropriate authorities of the Reich by the army bishop. The army bishop may appoint only such chaplains as receive permission from their diocesan bishop to engage on military pastoral work, together with a certificate of suitability. Military chaplains have the rights of parish priests with regard to the troops and other army personnel assigned to them. Detailed regulations for the organization of pastoral work by chaplains will be supplied by an Apostolic Brief. Regulations for official aspects of the same work will be drawn up by the Reich Government.

Article 28 In hospitals, prisons, and similar public institutions the Church is to retain the right of visitation and of holding divine service, subject to the rules of the said institutions. If regular pastoral care is provided for such institutions, and if pastors be appointed as State or other public officials, such appointments will be made by agreement with the ecclesiastical authorities.

Article 29 Catholic members of a non-German minority living within the Reich, in matters concerning the use of their mother tongue in church services [sermons], religious instruction and the conduct of church societies, will be accorded no less favorable treatment than that which is actually and in accordance with law permitted to individuals of German origin and speech living within the boundaries of the corresponding foreign States.

Article 30 On Sundays and Holy days, special prayers, conforming to the Liturgy, will be offered during the principal Mass for the welfare of the German Reich and its people in all episcopal, parish and conventual churches and chapels of the German Reich.

Article 31 Those Catholic organizations and societies which pursue exclusively charitable, cultural or religious ends, and, as such, are placed under the ecclesiastical authorities, will be protected in their institutions and activities. Those Catholic organizations which to their religious, cultural and charitable pursuits add others, such as social or professional interests, even though they may be brought into national organizations, are to enjoy the protection of Article 31, Section I, provided they guarantee to develop their activities outside all political parties. It is reserved to the central Government and the German episcopate, in joint agreement, to determine which organizations and associations come within the scope of this article. In so far as the Reich and its constituent States take charge of sport and other youth organizations, care will be taken that it shall be possible for the members of the same regularly to practice their religious duties on Sundays and feast days, and that they shall not be required to do anything not in harmony with their religious and moral convictions and obligations.

Article 32 In view of the special situation existing in Germany, and in view of the guarantee provided through this Concordat of legislation directed to safeguard the rights and privileges of the Roman Catholic Church in the Reich and its component States, the Holy See will prescribe regulations for the exclusion of clergy and members of religious Orders from membership of political parties, and from engaging in work on their behalf.

Article 33 All matters relating to clerical persons or ecclesiastical affairs, which have not been treated of in the foregoing articles, will be regulated for the ecclesiastical sphere according to current Canon Law. Should differences of opinion arise regarding the interpretation or execution of any of the articles of this Concordat, the Holy See and the German Reich will reach a friendly solution by mutual agreement.

Article 34 This Concordat, whose German and Italian texts shall have equal binding force, shall be ratified, and the certificates of ratification shall be exchanged, as soon as possible. It will be in force from the day of such exchange. In witness hereof, the plenipotentiaries have signed this Concordat.

Signed in two original exemplars, in the Vatican City, July 20th, 1933.
(Signed) Eugenio, Cardinal Pacelli

(Signed) Franz von Papen


APPENDIX: THE SUPPLEMENTARY PROTOCOLAt the signing of the Concordat concluded today between the Holy See and the German Reich, the undersigned, being regularly thereto empowered, have adjoined the following explanations which form an integral part of the Concordat itself. In re:

Article 3. The Apostolic Nuncio to the German Reich, in accordance with the exchange of notes between the Apostolic Nunciature in Berlin and the Reich Foreign Office on the 11th and the 27th of March respectively, shall be the Doyen of the Diplomatic Corps thereto accredited.

Article 13. It is understood that the Church retains the right to levy Church taxes.

Article 14, Par. 2. It is understood that when objections of a general political nature exist, they shall be presented within the shortest possible time. If after twenty days such representations have not been made, the Holy See may be justified in assuming that no objections exist to the candidate in question. The names of the persons concerned will be kept confidential until the announcement of the appointment. No right of the State to assert a veto is to be derived from this article.

Article 17. In so far as public buildings or properties are devoted to ecclesiastical purposes, these are to be retained as before, subject to existing agreements.

Article 19, Par 2. This clause is based, at the time of signature of this Concordat, especially on the Apostolic Constitution, "Deus Scientiarum Dominus' of May 24th, 1931, and the Instruction of July 7th, 1932.

Article 20. Hostels which are administered by the Church in connection with certain Universities and secondary schools, will be recognized, from the point of view of taxation, as essentially ecclesiastical institutions in the proper sense of the word, and as integral parts of diocesan organization.

Article 24. In so far as private institutions are able to meet the requirements of the new educational code with regard to the training of teachers, all existing establishments of religious Orders and Congregations will be given due consideration in the accordance or recognition.

Article 26. A severe moral emergency is taken to exist when there are insuperable or disproportionately difficult and costly obstacles impeding the procuring of documents necessary for the marriage at the proper time.

Article 27, Par. 1. Catholic officers, officials and personnel, their families included, do not belong to local parishes, and are not to contribute to their maintenance.

Article 27, Par 4. The publication of the
Apostolic Brief will take place after consultation with the Reich Government.

Article 28. In cases of urgency entry of the clergy is guaranteed at all times.

Article 29. Since the Reich Government has seen its way to come to an agreement regarding non-German minorities, the Holy See declares -- in accordance with the principles it has constantly maintained regarding the right to employ the vernacular in Church services [sermons], religious instruction and the conduct of Church societies -- that it will bear in mind similar clauses protective of German minorities when establishing Concordats with other countries.

Article 31, Par. 4. The principles laid down in Article 31, Sect. 4 hold good also for the Labor Service.

Article 32. It is understood that similar provisions regarding activity in Party politics will be introduced by the Reich Government for members of non-catholic denominations. The conduct, which has been made obligatory for the clergy and members of religious Orders in Germany in virtue of Article 32, does not involve any sort of limitation of official and prescribed preaching and interpretation of the dogmatic and moral teachings and principles of the Church.

(Signed) Eugenio, Cardinal Pacelli

(Signed) Franz von Papen

At the Vatican City, July 20th, 1933

fisherman - this is a 38 page Encyclical well worth the reading. I know you have the time, but do you dare? You call yourselve a Christian, but that would befuddle anyone when you grind the Catholic Church under your heel. Please check your motives for smearing what you have left. But read at least the last paragraph of this Encyclical of Pope Pius XII.

Summi Pontificatus
Encyclical on the Unity of Human Society
His Holiness Pope Pius XII
Promulgated on October 20, 1939

117. In the confidence that God, the Author and Lover of Peace, will hear the supplications of the Church, We impart to you all as a pledge of the abundance of Divine Grace, from the fullness of Our paternal heart, the Apostolic Benediction.

Given at Castel Gandolfo, near Rome, on the twentieth day of October, in the year of Our Lord, 1939, the first of Our Pontificate.

Some words of wisdom to you, fisherman - if you do not bless where you have been, you will not be a blessing where you are or where you are going.

More on this thread topic later.

fisherman,

The Myth of Hitler's Pope:
How Pope Pius XII Rescued Jews From the Nazis - David G. Dalin a professor of history and political science at Ave Maria University, Naples, Florida -- and an ordained rabbi -- demonstrates in his book, "The Myth of Hitler's Pope". It is a false and distorted portrayal that the Vatican, "did nothing" during the Holocaust to help Jews.

quote:

But, as I ( David G. Dalin) pointed out in my book The Righteous: The Unsung Heroes of the Holocaust (2003), there was another side to this coin. In France, leaders of the Roman Catholic clergy were outspoken in their condemnation of the deportations. In Italy, churchmen across the whole spectrum of Roman Catholicism, including leading Jesuits, saved Jews from deportation.

Many hundreds of Polish priests and nuns are among more than 5,000 Catholic Poles who have been recognized by the state of Israel for their courage in saving Jews.

fisherman

quote:

Pius XII did not issue a formal condemnation of Nazism because the German and Austrian bishops feared increased retaliation and dissuaded him from making additional protests that would undoubtedly irritate Hitler. And there was retaliation. During the persecution against Catholics, the Nazis not only destroyed churches and closed schools, but also arrested priests and Catholic leaders who were sent to concentration camps. All the protests of the Holy See were reported in a volume published in Germany in 1965.

A Catholic Martyr of WWII -

"Edith Stein was a Jewish girl that converted to Catholicism and entered the religious life. Although she did not seek death, Stein had often expressed her willingness to offer herself along with the sacrifice of Christ for the sake of her people, the Jews, and also for the sake of their persecutors. She was martyred for her Catholic faith and beatified by Pope John Paul II on May 1,1987.

Edith Stein is one of those people whose entire life seems to be a sign.

She was born on Yom Kippur, the Jewish Day of Atonement, in 1891 in Breslau, Germany (now Wroclaw, Poland), the youngest of eleven children in a devout Jewish family."

fisherman,

Pope Pius XII Encyclical, Summi Pontificatus , ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII
ON THE UNITY OF HUMAN SOCIETY
pages 8 and 9 are the powerful attacks on totalitarianism and racism. He publicly condemned both defending Jewish brethen explicitly .

fishermen,

quote:

During World War II,many Jews around the world had the chance to observe Pope Pius XII's conduct. They listened to his every word, and scrutinized his every action. Instead of seeing "Hitler's Pope," most Jews concluded that Pius XII's public statements were directed against the Nazis, and that he and his subordinates in many Nazi-occupied and Axis countries were trying to save Jewish lives. The many extraordinary and eloquent tributes that the Pope once received from Jews show that the allegations that he was a Nazi collaborator and indifferent toward the extermination of Jews would have seem completely unjustified and unjust to those who closely following his career.

fisherman, why are we enemies. If you are as you claim to be a Christian, (I'm not going to argue that), cannot we find a common meeting ground and rejoice in it.

Do you recognize the confusion to others who read these posts in your attacks against the Catholic Church. Before you go any further, I think you need to scrutinize within yourself what is going on. There are enough problems in the world without adding more division. Ecumenism is to build upon what we agree and do you agree Jesus Christ died for all humanity? It is shameful for believers of Jesus Christ to badger one another. It leads to no good end.

I don't mind a respectful discussion of differences in interpretation of scripture; but please don't stomp on being at least a little other centered.

fisherman, why are we enemies. If you are as you claim to be a Christian, (I'm not going to argue that), cannot we find a common meeting ground and rejoice in it.


GG, i dont wish to make enemies out of anyone. However, while you point out the good things that some catholics did to help the jews in WW2, which they did, you also FAIL to admit the shortcomings of the catholic church at the same time. in theory, you are trying to justify the church's silence during that time. did you know that hitler WANTED the pope assassinated at the time, but Mousillini would not allow it. that is another fact im sure has escaped you. the pope had plenty of opertunities to publicly condemn the killings. so say that he did would lead to more death is only speculation and not fact. im not against catholic, as we sare some of the same teachings. however, i want to point out that you still havent admitted to the sinful past of your church. that is why i attack you and your ideas. the fact remains that pius did sign a treaty with nazi germany and that was a partial cause of the rise of nazism and the holocaust. i admit that atrocities were done in the past by christian people. why cant yuo admit the same about the catholic church?

fisherman,

quote:

the pope had plenty of opertunities to publicly condemn the killings.

You are obviously afraid to read the exstensive research I did. My conclusion is that you need to justify why you left the Church and that is your business. It is never good for a female to counsel a male. I pleaded with you to scrutinize why you are so eager to attack. You are gravely mis-educated, mis-informed of church history. YES YES people within the church did injustices. THE CHURCH IS NEVER WRONG - it is the humanbeings that turned against themselves and their Creator and committed atrocities - I Agree!

Why do you not see the credence of Greater Pope John Paul II's asking for forgiveness of these actions coming into the third millenium!? No one reciprocated in kind! How sad that is.

C'mon, fisherman, be a repairer of the breach and stop heaping coals upon sinners' heads. Where is your mercy and forgiveness?

quote:

THE CHURCH IS NEVER WRONG -

once again you stil havent answered the question at hand. if the over see (pope) is the SPOKESMAN of the church, the only one who can institute new doctrine or change any existing doctrine, then essentially the pope is the church's leader. the fact that the roman catholic church never publicly spoke out against the holocaust until well after the war was over says alot.


"It is never good for a female to counsel a male."

yes that is correct. that is catholic church doctrine. perhaps you should listen to your own catholic laws and be silent. otherwise, you are going against the teachings of the church, which you stated above, is never wrong. silence is golden. another word of wisdom you obviously dont adhere to.

however, i dont follow catholic teachings, and i dont believe in it. i believe in equal rights and for anyone , man or woman, to be able to freely speak ones mind. i find it funny how fundamentalist you are with some catholic teachings, but others , like the submissive woman one, you obviously dont follow. why is that? you seem to only pick teachings that are convientant to your agendas or opinions.

fisherman

quote:

I said this, "It is never good for a female to counsel a male."

Your response, "yes that is correct. that is catholic church doctrine."

Really, doctrine. That's interesting. You might be right. I was using commonsense, actually.

Don't forget there are female protestant ministers. Do you agree with that?

quote:

if the over see (pope) is the SPOKESMAN of the church, the only one who can institute new doctrine or change any existing doctrine, then essentially the pope is the church's leader. the fact that the roman catholic church never publicly spoke out against the holocaust until well after the war was over says alot.

The Pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth only he can define what Catholics must believe and the College of Bishops, however, the Bishops cannot define a doctrine separate from the Vicar of Christ.

Catholic doctrine NEVER changes. Truths NEVER change. Be careful where you are going with this one. Protestants have spent ALOT of time and money trying to proof that a Pope erred in defining revelation of Christ and later needed to be corrected. It does not happen, has never happened.

Even if a Pope has been unfaithful, a Pope never errs in defining doctrine. A Pope has the annointing of infallibility in defining "faith and morals".

quote:

the fact that the roman catholic church never publicly spoke out against the holocaust until well after the war was over says alot.

Pope Pius II gave specific instructions to give refuge to those whose lives were in jeopardy by the Nazi regime. He really, did, fisherman. He provided places for them to hide as well as food and medical supplies. The Jewish people are grateful for the lives he saved.

quote:

i believe in equal rights and for anyone , man or woman,

You do women a disservice in not recognizing the genius of both sexes. Equal rights has for the most part been a disaster and has been given a humanistic interpretation that has weaken families, weaken society.

quote:

i find it funny how fundamentalist you are with some catholic teachings, but others , like the submissive woman one, you obviously dont follow.

That's kinda funny; actually incorrect. Or maybe I have misunderstood just what you mean.

quote:

you seem to only pick teachings that are convientant to your agendas or opinions.

Than I am wrong if I do, and intend to correct that if it is brought to my attention. I believe it is good to evaluate what another considers an action or understanding that is misleading others.

GG i see SOOOO many faults in your reasoning, i dont know where to begin...but lets start here:

"THE CHURCH IS NEVER WRONG"

so the church has never commited a crime EVER? look at your next statement. if the pope decieded to do something evil (like the crusades or inquisition) then that would mean that the church was in fact WRONG!


"The Pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth only he can define what Catholics must believe and the College of Bishops, however, the Bishops cannot define a doctrine separate from the Vicar of Christ"

sounds like a dictatorship where one man has absolute power to tell what other to believe or think. that goes against God giving humans free will and the freedom to make ones own decisions. it can ALSO lead to abuses, when a pope has evil intentions and change doctrine to suit his own agenda. prove me wrong on this one.
doesnt that statement also go against the teachings of the bible? all this time i thought it was GOD that defined what we were to believe in, not a mortal man.


"Catholic doctrine NEVER changes"

UNLESS the pope changes it! read your above statement where the pope and only the pope deciedes what catholics believe. so if the pope changes doctrine BASED on HIS interpretation, which has happened many times in catholic history, that means that is has infact been changed.


"Even if a Pope has been unfaithful, a Pope never errs in defining doctrine"

that statement contradicts itself. so if a pope is unfaithful and WRONG, he is still RIGHT? please explain that one to me. id love to hear how that is actually possible.



"Pope Pius II gave specific instructions to give refuge to those whose lives were in jeopardy by the Nazi regime. He really, did, fisherman. He provided places for them to hide as well as food and medical supplies. The Jewish people are grateful for the lives he saved"

i never doubted that statement. however, he never PUBLICLY denounced the killings, which is the point i was trying to make and the one you keep on dening. yes, secretly some catholics did help the jews, often at great risk to their own lives. but publicly , it didnt help that pius signed a treaty with the nazis. care to elaborate on that one? btw the treaty is PUBLIC record, stored forever in the archives of history and cannot be denied.



"You do women a disservice in not recognizing the genius of both sexes. Equal rights has for the most part been a disaster"

equal rights is a BAD thing? now i KNOW you are dimented. in your fantasy reality, blacks should still be slaves, women should be nothing but servants and baby making machines, and any male who isnt white and educated shouldnt own property (as it was when our country was founded). im glad that our former presidents and civil rights leaders never thought the way you do. btw, you say equal rights for woman is BAD thing, but yet earlier in the "world threats" thread, you listed some instances where you were condemning times where females were surpressed. care to explain that?



"Than I am wrong if I do, and intend to correct that if it is brought to my attention"

it has been brought up to your attention many times yet you refuse to look at it and i doubt you have ANY intention of correcting it.

fisherman

quote:

you listed some instances where you were condemning times where females were surpressed. care to explain that?

I don't remember condemning these times. Of course some things needed to change; unfortunately, it got out of hand and some women are shooting chivalry in the foot.

I've replied too hastily and I have been sloppy, sloppy, sloppy!! like "Sandy Burgler," you know whose friend who stole some papers from the archives stuffing them into his socks or somewhere.

Need to regroup.

quote:

Don't forget there are female protestant ministers. Do you agree with that

i dont a problem with any sex preaching the word of the lord. the more people to spread it, the better. only allowing males to preach cuts in half the amount of people that can be ministering to others. so , yes i do agree with it.

GG here is another proof of your conflicting statements, which , i may add, is getting too easy to prove.

YOU wrote on the 18th:
"You do women a disservice in not recognizing the genius of both sexes. Equal rights has for the most part been a disaster"

I replied:"btw, you say equal rights for woman is BAD thing, but yet earlier in the "world threats" thread, you listed some instances where you were condemning times where females were surpressed."

YOU THEN REPLIED:"I don't remember condemning these times"



well, let me refresh your memory, which seems to forget QUITE a bit:


posted by GG on sept 9th:
"This ideological wing of Islam is irreconcilable because:
It does not accept that women are equal in dignity and equal under the law, but instead accords them an inferior status in the life of society."

posted by GG on oct 9th:
"Saddam had Iraqi men, WOMEN and children put to death in human meat grinders on a daily basis"

"Saddam's sons, as well as other Administrators and military personnel raped and sodomized Iraqi girls, some as young as 8 years old, on a daily basis...WHERE'S THE NATIONAL ORGANIZATION OF WOMEN WHEN YOU NEED THEM???!!!"

posted by GG on oct 12TH:
"PALESTINIANS KILL WOMEN TO DEFEND REPUTATION"


but wait a minute! why do we need the national orginization of women if theres no need for equal rights? after all, according to you, women should be submissive of men all the time, so therefore all these autrocities above were meant to happen. women, in your mind, should be surpressed. im very glad i dont think that way.

fisherman

quote:

im very glad i dont think that way.

I don't either and I will try to explain.

quote:

but wait a minute! why do we need the national orginization of women if theres no need for equal rights?

You are looking at it on the human level, a wounded human reasoning, individualistic considerations of human acts set in oppposition to natural laws written on each heart. National Organizations of Women are NOT, never were, and never will be for equal rights. The rights these women portray are no rights at all for they justify unlawful actions. (Any law not hinged on a natural law is not a law).

NOWers hate their fertility and will do what is necessary to shut it down. They teach that polluting their bodies with fertility controlling drugs is liberating when in fact it kills the body and it kills the soul. Since these ultra women haters of the dignity of their femininity have come into power, they have spread their lies into the school system as well. (That's another topic.)

Fisherman, women have become more of a slave class. Some women have recognized the tragerdy of radical feminism. They had delayed marriage and family for careers, now many in their late 30's early 40's are having difficulties having the baby(s) they desparately want. Their is an increase of married women leaving the work place and pulling their children out of the our disgraceful government schools wanting to be the primary educator and influence of their children. Did you know that currently more women graduate college than men? What a scene women have created on campus and men are the losers.

Militant feminists hate the family, hate the word tradition, have trashed anything that is patterned after the word of God because it is contrary to all that they WANT to be true.

Take a look at this partial list of what women's equal rights have done; you can add more I'm certain:

50% plus marriages fail

fathers of the family are weakened and lack the will to discipline their sons and daughters to dress, act and live decent lives.

It hurts me tremendously that fathers allow men to use their daughters sexually. Fathers allow their daughters to 'cohabitate'. Fathers actually lack the integrity to love their daughters enough to protect them and allow them to give themselves freely without marriage!!! There was a time women got paid for sex. Not so now and with approval of parents, sons and daughters experiment with many partners.

Mothers take their daughters to get birth control pills so that they can have sex and increase their chances of pregancy, a sexually transmitted disease, need for an abortion, increase their chances of breast cancer, and cervical cancer. THAT'S EQUAL RIGHTS TO DIE!! and to die an early death sometimes leaving young children behind.

What part of this so far is dignity of femininity, dignity of womanhood??

feminization of men - Oh my God, how corrupt and highly sexualized our society has become. Women are now more unprotected than ever. We even have the FDA targeting women by approving drugs that are sure to send females to an early grave. NOWers in action. It will be worth taking the time to explore the roots of this evil.

YES, YES, men have not upheld their principal duty to protect women and children in the past and changes needed to happen. That's how society grows. NOWers chose subhuman standards of living; they have paved the way and become the leaders of the 'death culture mentality'.

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Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long