fisherman

quote:

he united states is just as influental. many innocent iraqis have also called for peace but have died in retailiation because of our presence there.

The Iraqis fear that the US military will leave their country. The drive-by media refuses to tell it like it is - the building up of the infrastructure, the abililty to vote three times in one year inspite of stressful condidtions, the many improvements, - - -. Are you aware of the extreme hardships the Iraqis lived under dictator-takover regime of Suddam?

quote:

ACTUALLY stated. can you now see why the muslims hate us more than ever?

Your memory fails you if you do not remember radical Muslims were killing Americans before 9/11.

quote:

to bush, we are fighting a holy war

Your words, not his!

quote:

and by being treated generously, if you mean no access to legal representation, no charges filed against them, being detained indefinitly with little possible hope for a fair trial, being deprived sleep, put into extreme temperature controlled rooms, then yes, you are correct.

No, I mean they have more comforts than they have ever had in their lives. Only their freedom has been denied for very good reasons.

How would you extract information from enemy combatants who desire to kill you and your family, wipe Israel of the face of the earth and force conversion to Islam at the point of a gun until no infidels breathe live?

GG,

Let's stick with facts here.

1. Iraq had nothing to do with 911. The majority of the culprits in the 911 attack were from Saudi Arabia. Why no military action there?

2. No WMD were found. If any were, then it would be ALL over the news not just in the US. Blair also lost his entire credibility as PM with this one. British Intelligence screwed up and there have been numerous investigations as to this. Plus of course if they had any WMD the west would have sold them.

3. For many years before that the US and other western nations have plundered, plotted and fought over the resources in the middle east. Many civilians have died as a result. Not forgetting of course that the US once fully supported and armed Saddam Hussein under Bush's father.

4. 'Islamofacists' another hawkism in this stupid war, do not desire to take over the US. Utter nonsense. They simply want their countries back and the 'infidel' out.

While you are praying for wisdom. Be open to recognising your own hate and your own 'evil'.

quote:

The Iraqis fear that the US military will leave their country. The drive-by media refuses to tell it like it is - the building up of the infrastructure, the abililty to vote three times in one year inspite of stressful condidtions, the many improvements

if you really believe that first sentence then you are living in a fanatasy world just like bush is. a recent poll of IRAQIS said that 6 out of every 10 or 60% want US SOLDIERS DEAD!! they want us to LEAVE their nation, not stay longer. the iraqis no longer see us as liberators but occupiers. the media is showing whats really going on in iraq- over 100 iraqi civilians dieing EVERY day, an AVERAGE OF 3 AMERICAN TROOPS DIEING EVERY DAY, and no end in sight to secular violence. how you see diffently is beyond me. (and most other americans i might add). the infrastructure that is building now is only because it was DESTROYED DURING OUR BOMBING CAMPAIGNS. the iraqi people had electric , water, and other basic needs when saddam was in power and we destroyed that infrastructure during the shock and awe stage of the war.

quote:

quote:
to bush, we are fighting a holy war

Your words, not his!

if this is true, then WHY did bush invoke god when talking about the invasion of iraq? what happened to separation of church and state?

GG you are living in some sort of hallucunation. you are one of those people that blindly follow the leadership of this nation and what they say, DESPITE what is reality. Bush thinks the war is over! after all , didnt he proclaim mission accomplished on may 3, 2003?
wasnt it bush that on june 3, 2003 taunted the terrorists and told them to "bring it on"?
i really feel sorry that you believe the way you do. i bet if this was the vietnam war, you would be on of those people who said things were going great and stay the course. im sorry, but the blind leading the blind doesnt work for me. in this nation, people like you are a minority now.

how can u think things are going great in iraq with all the deaths? with the fact our OWN generals are saying iraq is in the midst of a civil war. the judge in the saddam trial has issued a stay on the verdict in order to prevent sectarian violence once the verdict is read. the state of emergency was once again extended for the entire nation of iraq (it has been in a state of emergency for over a full year straight). and a city wide curfew was issued in baghdad over the weekend. yup, things are REALLY going great there! your logic is so flawed, its akin to ann coulter talking about 911 widows being into for the money.

you have the right to your opinion, as do all americans but just because you believe something doesnt make it real. our president is proof of that. what he says is most of the time a complete opposite of the reality of the situation.

quote:

How would you extract information from enemy combatants who desire to kill you and your family, wipe Israel of the face of the earth and force conversion to Islam at the point of a gun until no infidels breathe live?

i wouldnt do it in the manner bush and company are doing it. and what is the diffence between a terrorist holding a gun to yor head to make u convert to islam, and an american army bombing your nation to force you to convert to democracy? the differnce between the two is very small, if at all.

KennyMac

quote:

Not forgetting of course that the US once fully supported and armed Saddam Hussein under Bush's father.

He and his country was once considered a place of safety and a safe risk, but I do not have any information on it.

quote:

No WMD were found.

That's been disproved, KenneyMac!
A former Iraqi general has confirmed the existence of these weapons.

quote:

Iraq had nothing to do with 911. The majority of the culprits in the 911 attack were from Saudi Arabia.

Current Democrat Senators prior to 9/11 are on record stating the opposite. Iraq was a haven for jihardists building of their military. Suddam violated all the sanctions imposed by the UN and the UN allowed it to happen.
Before the invasion alot of WMDs were taken over the border to Saudi Arabia.

quote:

British Intelligence screwed

Wasn't it the UN inspectors?

quote:

Plus of course if they had any WMD the west would have sold them.

Would you have bought some?

quote:

'Islamofacists' another hawkism in this stupid war, do not desire to take over the US.

C'mon, KennyMac!!!

quote:

While you are praying for wisdom. Be open to recognising your own hate and your own 'evil'.

Yikes!!!! God help me!!!

KennyMac and fisherman, isn't it strange how the many immigrants risk who lives to come to this country?

Should we redirect them to Austrailia?

My last words for today, - God help us if Pres. Bush had not won in 2000 and 2004. I think we would all now be speaking another language.

You are in a different reality GG. Good luck in there with all those bad guys.

quote:

My last words for today, - God help us if Pres. Bush had not won in 2000 and 2004. I think we would all now be speaking another language.

You already do. Gibberish. You are as fundamentalist as those you condemn.

quote:

KennyMac and fisherman, isn't it strange how the many immigrants risk who lives to come to this country?

Should we redirect them to Austrailia?

and this pertains to iraq how??


GG's FANTASY WORLD:war in iraq going well

ACTUAL REALITY:iraq in midst of civil war

FANTASY:spending 80 billion in iraq a year is good

ACTUAL REALITY:we are now buried in debt to other nations

FANTASY:gop leadership is protecting america

ACTUAL REALITY:gop leadership wants to let taliban govern afghanistan again

FANTASY:thank god bush was elected in 2000 and 2004 or we might be speaking another language

ACTUAL REALITY:2000 bush was appointed, not elected. with influx of illegals from mexico, we still might be speaking spanish before you know it

FANTASY:iraq had WMD

ACTUAL REALITY:no WMD found in over 3 years we have been on the ground in iraq

FANTASY:iraq was at fault for 911

ACTUAL REALITY:no link between iraq and 911. most of the terrorists were saudis

FANTASY:we are building the infrastructure of iraq

ACTUAL REALITYnly because we are the ones who destroyed it

FANTASY:iraqis are afraid to have american troops leave iraq

ACTUAL REALITYver 60% of iraqis polled want us soldiers DEAD!



GG your reality sounds like an episode of the twilight zone or star trek. do some independant research instead of listening to the gop propaganda machine.

When you forget, ALL the world suffers:

REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of PanAm Flight 103!

REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993!

REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the Marine barracks in Lebanon!

REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the military barracks in Saudi Arabia!

REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the American mbassies in Africa!

REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the USS COLE!

REMEMBER the MUSLIM attack on 9/11/2001!

REMEMBER all the AMERICAN lives that were lost in those vicious MUSLIM attacks!

* * * * * * * *
Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.

"Dr. Ehrenfeld listed many contemporary and historical crimes committed by Muslim states against non-Muslims and their holy sites. She noted: “According to the Dictionary of Islam: conquered by jihad, subjugated people are given three choices:
1) convert,
2) pay a head tax,
or 3) die.”

She quoted the thirteenth century jurist, Ibn Taymiya, often cited by Osama bin Laden, who wrote that spoils of war “received the name of fay since Allah had taken them away from the infidels in order to restore (afa'a, radda) them to the Muslims....

[The] infidels forfeit their persons and their belongings which they do not use in Allah's service to the faithful believers who serve Allah and unto whom Allah restitutes what is theirs....”

fisherman and KenneyMac - Your sympathies are misplaced:

Iran President more dangerous than Hitler.

'Suicidal regime'

While the Soviet Union in history backed away from self destruction the West may now be facing a "suicidal regime" in the form of Iran, which is willing to sacrifice itself for its ideology.

Recognizing the danger IS the first step in dealing with it"

fisherman and accomplished prayer analyzer:

Have you taken the time to analyse the prayer by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad when he was in the US two weeks ago??

Why not?? Oh, sorry - not expedient for bush bashing ?

Awaiting the 12th Imam - eNews for August 08, 2006
President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was elected in June of 2005 with more than 60 percent ... with a prayer imploring God to hasten the return of the 12th Imam. ...
www.khouse.org/enews_article/2006/1099/print/

quote:

When you forget, ALL the world suffers:


REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of PanAm Flight 103!

REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993!

REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the Marine barracks in Lebanon!

REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the military barracks in Saudi Arabia!

REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the American mbassies in Africa!

REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the USS COLE!

REMEMBER the MUSLIM attack on 9/11/2001!

REMEMBER all the AMERICAN lives that were lost in those vicious MUSLIM attacks!

yes all those attacks were very tragic events and SHOULD be condemned by EVERYONE. however, at the same time, your failure to condemn the attacks on innocent iraqi citizens by coalition forces is nothing less that hypocritical. your failure to speak out to those attacks are just as bad as the american-muslims (or muslims in general) who did not openly condemn all the attacks you mentioned. how can you condemn attacks only when they are directed against jewish or american forces and not against muslims?

quote:

She noted: “According to the Dictionary of Islam: conquered by jihad, subjugated people are given three choices:
1) convert,
2) pay a head tax,
or 3) die.”

look at the key words there buddy... conquered by JIHAD! the vast majority of muslims do not practice or preach jihadism. to put all muslims into the same catagory as the jihadist, as you have done many times, is akin to calling ALL catholics sexual perverts just because a few clergy decieded to go the way of satan. are you a sexual pervert because you are catholic?

quote:

fisherman and KenneyMac - Your sympathies are misplaced:

Iran President more dangerous than Hitler.

please tell me in what ways he is more dangerous. as far as i know, the iranian president, in spite of all his tough talk, has NOT invaded another country. he has NOT sent over 6 million people to their deaths in torture chambers.
if anyone is more dangerous than hitler, it would be our president. our president has initiated a secret police state, just this the SS, where anyone can be locked up indefintly for no reason. just like hitler, bush is surpressing the nations civil rights for 'the greater good of the nation'. just like hitler, bush is forcing his new world order onto other nations that are unwilling to conform to his ungodly views.
is the iranian president a threat? probably so. but to make a comparison to hitler is misguided. until he tries to take over the entire middle east or put 6 million non muslims into death chambers, your point has no merit.

quote:

While the Soviet Union in history backed away from self destruction the West may now be facing a "suicidal regime" in the form of Iran, which is willing to sacrifice itself for its ideology.

Recognizing the danger IS the first step in dealing with it"

GG you need to read your history better. the soviet union DID self destruct, hence it no longer exists. that is why it is called Russia now, not the USSR anymore. with the collaspe of the berlin wall came the collaspe of the soviet union. or dont they teach that in conservative learning books? you would think they would since reagan was partly responsible for it, as was the social and ecomonical situation inside the soviet union at the time

also if iran is willing to sacrifice itself for its ideology, then what do you call americas war on terror or the iraq war? are we not sacrificing many of our soldiers lives for our ideologies? are we not sacrificing how the world views us? are we not sacrificing the welfare of the american people for the ideologies of the bush administration. once again, your hypocritical views have been exposed. you are saying whats wrong for one country (iran) is right for another (united states)

quote:

Have you taken the time to analyse the prayer by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad when he was in the US two weeks ago??

Why not?? Oh, sorry - not expedient for bush bashing ?

Awaiting the 12th Imam - eNews for August 08, 2006
President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was elected in June of 2005 with more than 60 percent ... with a prayer imploring God to hasten the return of the 12th Imam. ...
www.khouse.org/enews_article/2006/1099/print/

no i agree with you on what the iranian president said at the time. HOWEVER, if you are going to point a finger at him, why didnt you also condemn what bush said in the state of the union address in 2003?
instead of condemning bush, you actually tried to change what he said and the meaning of what he said. bush said what he said. those facts cannot be changed, twisted, or magically have different meaning. could it be because bush was invoking YOUR god and not the muslim god? you are quick to condemn when a muslim speaks of jihad and holy wars, but you give bush a free pass when he does the same, even going as far as justifing what he said.
so if bush was justified in invoking god in his speach, by your logic the iran president was all in the right to do the same.

quote:

quote:
Iraq had nothing to do with 911. The majority of the culprits in the 911 attack were from Saudi Arabia.


Current Democrat Senators prior to 9/11 are on record stating the opposite. Iraq was a haven for jihardists building of their military. Suddam violated all the sanctions imposed by the UN and the UN allowed it to happen.
Before the invasion alot of WMDs were taken over the border to Saudi Arabia

WOW!! heres a BIG FLAW with your reasoning GG. how could democratic senators PRIOR to 911 know that iraq was involved in 911 if 911 did not exist at that time? did they have some sort of magical timemachine or a quiji board, able to see into the future? if 911 didnt occur or exist , then how would they know prior to the fact? lol i laugh at your attempts of reasoning.

and ,if in fact you are correct about the WMD being moved to saudi arabia, why hasnt your all mighty administration try to take them out there? simple, it all has to do with oil. if we attack the saudis, we will lose a vast majority of the imported oil we recieve. i have not once seen you condemning saudi arabia for having these WMD or even the fact that the majority of the terrorists were saudis. you are quick to condemn iran, which even though has a radical government, does not possess WMD at the time.

fisherman

quote:

could it be because bush was invoking YOUR god and not the muslim god? you are quick to condemn when a muslim speaks of jihad and holy wars,

"YOUR god"- addressed that way I do not know whom you are referrring. If you are attempting to address "God, Creator of the Universe and all that is living", than I know whom you are addressing.

There is only one God. The Muslims call him other names than Christians. RADICAL Muslims have interpreted God very differently than the moderate/peaceful Muslims. Jihardists or Radical Muslims interpret God as directing them to TAKE OVER THE WORLD BY FIRE AND SWORD. Peaceful/moderate Muslims oppose that interpretation. Peaceful/moderate Muslims recognize that the problem for Muslims is that they do not have a magisterium/council or an annointing of a headship on earth - that results in CHAOS - a threat to civilization.

quote:

WOW!! heres a BIG FLAW with your reasoning GG. how could democratic senators PRIOR to 911 know that iraq was involved in 911 if 911 did not exist at that time? did they have some sort of magical timemachine or a quiji board, able to see into the future? if 911 didnt occur or exist , then how would they know prior to the fact? lol i laugh at your attempts of reasoning.

They are on record stating that they are aware of the build up of Iraq's threat to the world - Kerry, Kennedy, Gore, both Clintons - - - .

Fisherman - this is a good article, well worth taking the time to read on the Muslim European epidemic last spring and much more about the mutual enemy we face.

KennyMac

quote:

You are as fundamentalist as those you condemn.

I'm thinking about why you would call me a fundamentalist.

quote:

what do you call americas war on terror or the iraq war?

Defense - protection of all the citizens of the world - enough if enough. Remember 9/11 - have you forgotten??

quote:

look at the key words there buddy... conquered by JIHAD! the vast majority of muslims do not practice or preach jihadism. to put all muslims into the same catagory as the jihadist, as you have done many times, is akin to calling ALL catholics sexual perverts just because a few clergy decieded to go the way of satan. are you a sexual pervert because you are catholic?

I'm not a "buddy"!

If most Muslims do not practice or preach (I doubt you are correct), than why are they silent? Wouldn't you say their silence is because they fear for their lives?? Think about that one!

Don't be silly about Catholics. Catholics are embarrassed about the scandal.

GG you still have not given any hard facts to prove your points. you just repeat the same endless dribble over and over....that the muslims are at fault for everything and bush has not committed any mistakes at all.

as for your quote on how democratic senators knew iraq was involved in 911 PRIOR to 911 occuring, you still havent proved how its possible for one to see into the future, as you have suggested.

quote:

Current Democrat Senators prior to 9/11 are on record stating the opposite.

how can they be on record that iraq was involved in 911 if 911 did not occur yet? you still have yet to answer this. i believe you are wishcasting at this point, trying to save face when in fact you cannot back up the statements you make. thats like me saying the weather on sat oct 7th was sunny out but the actual date is still friday the 6th. please tell me how this is possible?

quote:

They are on record stating that they are aware of the build up of Iraq's threat to the world - Kerry, Kennedy, Gore, both Clintons - - - .

so you are stating that these people knew that iraq was involved with the attacks on 911 before the attacks even occurred? do you know how idiotic you sound with statements like that? how can anyone take even one of your statements seriously when you try to rewrite history before it even happens? perhaps they did go on record AFTER 911 saying that there was an iraqi connection, but its impossible for them to say so beforehand, before any attacks even took place.

oh one more thing, mayb buddy was the wrong word. i really meant to say neo con. have a good day

fisherman

quote:

that is contrary what what bush ACTUALLY said. i did not change the quote of what he said. he said it exactly as i posted it. what you wrote is opposite of what bush ACTUALLY stated. can you now see why the muslims hate us more than ever?

What I wrote was what I believe he might have prayed. Once again, no one directs the hand of God as you say Pres. Bush did.

As for the hatred of the Islamofascists - they seek and justify any reason to lash out to kill for their purposes and plans.

- Revenge is NEVER SWEET!

fisherman

quote:

so if bush was justified in invoking god in his speach, by your logic the iran president was all in the right to do the same.

We need to seek wisdom to discern intentions.

Which one is more honorable? Pres. Bush is not flawless - no human exists that is. Especially in war, mistakes will be made and that is on going known in the records of ALL wars.

The greatest problem that exists on earth is the inability to recognize evil.

Fisherman

"Osama bin Laden himself said that the American withdrawal from Somalia emboldened his movement before 9/11. Imagine the victory celebrations among the terrorists if we were to retreat from Iraq."

Very dangerous is that many congressionals truly seem to believe that Iraq is completely separate from the greater war on terror.

On Nov. 7th we must ask ourselves before we vote, "would surrendering Iraq to the enemy make us safer -- or less safe?"

(The highly sexualized stuff about Foley took over headlines this past week and replaced the major topic of the war believed would help a party regain power. I believe the purposeful distraction has back fired and has actually energized more to go to the poles armed to vote with their convictions. ((that was not the plan.)) Apathy is being rooted out, stirred up, and overcome.)

The COMMENTARY by Ken Mehlman in the Wall Street Journal dated September 22, 2006; Page A10,

explains alot of the separateness between Democrats and Republicans and is worth pondering before Nov. 7th.

I could post it but I think it will get edited.

KennyMac calling me a fundamentalist:

If you perceive fundamentalism as having as intense gratitude for He who gave humanity endless loveliness in the beauty of His creation and many more marvels I have not yet grasped, or

if you perceive fundamentalism to actually be a "fundamental option" that best describes my desire to live the Beatitudes convinced of the amazing love by He who came to die for me (and you), than OK, I'm a fundamentalist.

I respect that you do not want to discuss religious issues; I'm merely responding to your recent post of what you assume me to be.

fisherman
quote:
how can they be on record that iraq was involved in 911 if 911 did not occur yet?

What I have been saying is that they are on record as ackowledging that Iraq is a developing threat to the world. You've miscontrued something.

Could anyone in their right mind believe that such derangement would manifest itself in actually taking jets filled with passengers and recently filled to the brim with jet fuel and fly into buildings???? ARE you CODDLING THIS BEHAVIOR?

A World Threat - legalizing drugs:


"In his book Democracy Derailed: Initiative Campaigns and the Power of Money, : David S. Broder names the trio, George Soros, Peter Lewis, and John Sperling and says they are financing these initiatives because they have "convinced themselves that the national 'war on drugs' is a dreadful mistake in policy."

Incrementaly, drugs are being legalized.

George Soros - Chairman of
Open Society Institute/Soros Management Fund

Soros has made possible various state ballot initiatives to legalize "medical" marijuana, as well has advocating such "reforms" as making heroin and other illicit drugs to be available on prescription to registered drug addicts.

Furthermore, Soros hates nationalism and nation's boundaries and is majorly focused on a world of globalized economics, a globalized government.

Gorge Soros hates the prestige and accomplishments of America. Mr. Soros proposes the "Soros doctrine," along with what he considers the good agency of the United Nations. His "preventive actions of a constructive nature" methods are dangerous diabolical threats to the world.

Soros blames Jewish organizations--or Israel--for the works of Nazis Germany. He likens the behavior of Israel to that of Nazis Germany, twisting psychological jargon of victims becoming victimizers.


Soros desires to appear godlike, filled with messianic ideas. His self-described "superhuman" goal is to become the conscience of the world.

Wake Up America!

So, what your saying is that George Soros is the Democrat's Karl Rove, except with a conscience?

quote:

Originally posted by LisaP:
So, what your saying is that George Soros is the Democrat's Karl Rove, except with a conscience?

What I am saying is that George Soros' depravity neither walks, nor wills, nor works for the best interest of civilization.

GG once again your total lack of logic leaves me in disbelief. i find it very hard that someone can be as naive as yourself, but time and time again you have proven me wrong. you keep contradicting yourself over and over again. heres some of the conflicting statements you have made within the last week. take the time to actually USE YOUR BRAIN and see the mistakes you have made. i dont want to get coy with you, but as the bible states, spare the rod, spoil the child (you being the child)

GG's LAND OF CONFLICTING STATEMENTS:

(kenny mac):Iraq had nothing to do with 911

(your reply):Current Democrat Senators prior to 9/11 are on record stating the opposite

(so i then replied with this):how could democratic senators PRIOR to 911 know that iraq was involved in 911 if 911 did not exist at that time?

(your reply):What I have been saying is that they are on record as ackowledging that Iraq is a developing threat to the world.


so you can see that your first statement conflicts with the 2nd one. in the 2nd statement, you say that iraq IS a developing threat to the world, meaning that the senators said it AFTER 911, not PRIOR. CONFLICTING STATEMENT #1


NEXT CONFLICTING STATEMENT MADE BY GG:
(i wrote):“With the might of God on our side we will triumph over Iraq. God will watch over our troops and grant us a victory over the threat of Saddam’s army. God will bless us and keep us safe in the coming battle.” (this is part of bush's state of the union speech in 2003)

(you replied):I really believe Pres. Bush prayed something more like this:
Lord, we ASK that you would - - - - Watch over our loved ones, -- and protect our troops Almighty Father - - - We ASK that you would grant us victory - - - keep our intentions pure and honorable, and may YOUR will be done - - - NOT OURS, in Your Precious Name, we pray. Amen!

(i countered):that is contrary what what bush ACTUALLY said.

(you then replied):What I wrote was what I believe he might have prayed

too bad believing is differnt from reality. he prayed the exact words i stated in the first part. what you BELIEVE he has is contrary to what he ACTUALLY said.


CONFLICTING STATEMENT #3:
(you wrote):All acts of terrorism are done by Muslims.

(strawberry replied):Timothy McVeigh was not a Muslim.The people who mail anthrax envelopes to Democrats are Americans.Eric Rudolph is an American Christian.

(you replied):In your desperation you purposely MISquote me. Let me repeat what I have said once again for the record - NOT all Muslims are Islamofascists or radicals.

once again your second statement conflicts and cotradicts your first statement. this is starting to get too easy. shall i do another or have you had enough? oh what the hell, ill do one more just for fun.


GG's CONFLICTING STATEMENT #4:
(you wrote):The terrorists combatants are not covered by the Geneva Convention

(later you wrote
The detainees, enemy combatants, none should forget have a body, soul and spirit as all of humanity. They deserve dignity of personhood as in all humanbeings.

hmmmm, the second statement is an EXACT OPPOSITE of what you said in the first one. why the sudden change?

i can go on and on pointing out flaws and conflicts and contradictions in your statements, but then then i would essentially have to write a 10,000 word essay since there are so many.

ok, ill do one more. last one, i promise.
(you posted):Jesus says to turn the other cheek
(you also posted):Pope Benedict XVI has made a plea to stop the violence

(then you posted):There is also the 'just war theory' that some Catholic theologians consider is applicable in this war

but doesnt that last statement contradict the teachings of christ and the pleas of the pope? another contradicting statement you made gg.


LETS DO ONE MORE:
(i wrote):the pope during ww2 did nothing to condemn the killing of millions of jews during the holocaust.

(you wrote):The Pope could not publicly condemn because in retaliation, more Jewish people would have been exterminated as well as Polish, Hungarians - - - people

(i later wrote):the vast majority of muslims do not practice or preach jihadism.

(you then replied):If most Muslims do not practice or preach (I doubt you are correct), than why are they silent? Wouldn't you say their silence is because they fear for their lives??

hmmmm isnt that the same reason you gave the catholic church for being silent in WW2? funny how in your mind it was justified for the church to be silent on the holocaust matter, but if moderate islams are silent about suicide bombers, it is wrong. once again, another conflicting statement by the king of conflict, GG.

fisherman - you might find this interesting.

quote:

Saddam's Secret Tapes
By Sharon Hughes - 2/18/2006

Bill Tierney, a former military intelligence officer and an UNSCOM weapons inspector in Iraq from 1996-1998, told Fox News' Hannity & Colmes on Thursday, February 16th, that Saddam Hussein was heavily involved with terrorism, and that translations of 12 of the dictator's 'secret tapes' recorded at his palace office, reveal he talked about attacks that were coming to Washington DC. The tapes have been confirmed by U.S. officials as being authentic.

fisherman - if you dare, read the following our information media refuses to tell.

quote:

NAJIM ABDULLAH ABID AL-JIBOURI
Mayor of Tall `Afar, Ninewa, Iraq
Feb. 17, 2006

To the Courageous Men and Women of the 3d Armored Cavalry Regiment, who have changed the city of Tall' Afar from a ghost town, in which terrorists spread death and destruction, to a secure city flourishing with life.

To the lion-hearts who liberated our city from the grasp of terrorists who were beheading men, women and children in the streets for many months.

To those who spread smiles on the faces of our children, and gave us restored hope, through their personal sacrifice and brave fighting, and gave new life to the city after hopelessness darkened our days, and stole our confidence in our ability to reestablish our city.

Our city was the main base of operations for Abu Mousab Al Zarqawi. The city was completely held hostage in the hands of his henchmen. Our schools, governmental services, businesses and offices were closed. Our streets were silent, and no one dared to walk them. Our people were barricaded in their homes out of fear; death awaited them around every corner. Terrorists occupied and controlled the only hospital in the city.

Their savagery reached such a level that they stuffed the corpses of children with explosives and tossed them into the streets in order to kill grieving parents attempting to retrieve the bodies of their young. This was the situation of our city until God prepared and delivered unto them the courageous soldiers of the 3d Armored Cavalry Regiment, who liberated this city, ridding it of Zarqawi's followers after harsh fighting, killing many terrorists, and forcing the remaining butchers to flee the city like rats to the surrounding areas, where the bravery of other 3d ACR soldiers in Sinjar, Rabiah, Zumar and Avgani finally destroyed them.

I have met many soldiers of the 3d Armored Cavalry Regiment; they are not only courageous men and women, but avenging angels sent by The God Himself to fight the evil of terrorism.

The leaders of this Regiment embody courage, strength, vision and wisdom. Officers and soldiers alike bristle with the confidence and character of knights in a bygone era. The mission they have accomplished, by means of a unique military operation, stands among the finest military feats to date in Operation Iraqi Freedom, and truly deserves to be studied in military science. This military operation was clean, with little collateral damage, despite the ferocity of the enemy. With the skill and precision of surgeons they dealt with the terrorist cancers in the city without causing unnecessary damage.

God bless this brave Regiment; God bless the families who dedicated these brave men and women. From the bottom of our hearts we thank the families. They have given us something we will never forget. To the families of those who have given their holy blood for our land, we all bow to you in reverence and to the souls of your loved ones. Their sacrifice was not in vain. They are not dead, but alive, and their souls hovering around us every second of every minute. They will never be forgotten for giving their precious lives. They have sacrificed that which is most valuable. We see them in the smile of every child, and in every flower growing in this land.

Let America, their families, and the world be proud of their sacrifice for humanity and life.

fisherman - Once more on the President's prayer - I improvised my words of what I think he might have prayed since a Christian does not order the hand of God.

I have no way of knowing what he prayed if you will not provide me with a copy of it and I believe you misunderstood his prayer.

fisherman

quote:

funny how in your mind it was justified for the church to be silent on the holocaust matter, but if moderate islams are silent about suicide bombers, it is wrong. once again, another conflicting statement by the king of conflict, GG.

The Church was silent to prevent retaliation, -to prevent more killings.

Are you aware that the Church gave refuge and saved many lives during that time? Speaking forcefully to a deranged Nazi leader would have prevented this from happening.

quote:

There is also the 'just war theory' that some Catholic theologians consider is applicable in this war

but doesnt that last statement contradict the teachings of christ and the pleas of the pope? another contradicting statement you made gg.

fisherman - A nation has a responsibility to defend its people. None of us know what the Bush administration had for information. We know this to be true that Congress voted FOR THE INVASION. Pres. Bush did NOT ACT ON HIS OWN. Congress approved the invasion!!

The Pope wanted a settlement by other means. I don't know if he was given the information known by the US to approve 'Shock and Awe'.

As for the "Just War Theory" - people do reason and people have differences in their reasonings. These are very difficult issues. We do not live in a perfect world, you've noticed.

GG what i really find interesting is that you did not try to contradict any of the conflicting statements that i posted above. this leads me to believe that i was correct.

also the fact that your 'source' went with the information on Fox News only reinforces my belief that it is only GOP propaganda. had it been released on minstream news (like ALL the stations, not just Fox) , it would have given your statement more credability.

you are also forgetting that MANY nations and radical groups have ALSO talked of attacking or of other attacks on the united states during the same period.

you are also forgetting that Reagan and Rumsfeld were once allies with Saddam and helped arm him. the following statement you made a little while back is also contradictory:

"He and his country was once considered a place of safety and a safe risk, but I do not have any information on it."

a safe risk? is there such a thing? thats an oximoron if i had ever seen one. and when was iraq EVER a place of safety? according to another statement you made, it has always been a haven for terrorists:

"For about 20 years Arab Muslims have been attacking and killing Americans. It was not until 9/11 that it FInALLY got our attention as their native countrymen danced and celebrated in the streets" (this is one quote you made justifing president bush's invasion of the war in iraq)

so once again there is another conflicting statement you made. which was it? was iraq safe or unsafe?

fisherman

quote:

so once again there is another conflicting statement you made. which was it? was iraq safe or unsafe?

You have not figured out I am not a 'buddy or a king'.

Give me more time for I'm at the end of myself today.

quote:

fisherman - A nation has a responsibility to defend it people. None of us know what the Bush administration had for information.

noone knew what information the bush administration had? well according to these statements, you knew the info at hand and took it as fact:

"Weapons of mass destruction have been found"

"Before the invasion alot of WMDs were taken over the border to Saudi Arabia"

"Iraq was a haven for jihardists building of their military."

GG you better stop shooting yourself in your mouth. everytime u say something, it contradicts something you said earlier.

"I have no way of knowing what he prayed if you will not provide me with a copy of it and I believe you misunderstood his prayer" -GG oct 8,2006


GG i have given you a copy of what bush said during the state of the union address 6 TIMES NOW!! if you have failed to read it, it is only because of your selective reading. you choose to ignore what he said. so for the 7th TIME i will post it AGAIN!! for the RECORD, this is as bush said it. it is NOT chaged or amended in any way.

this is BUSH'S EXACT SPEECH!!
“With the might of God on our side we will triumph over Iraq. God will watch over our troops and grant us a victory over the threat of Saddam’s army. God will bless us and keep us safe in the coming battle.”

HERE IS YOUR COPY!!!!!!
HERE IS YOUR COPY!!!!!!

how can this be misunderstood? he, in PLAIN ENGLISH, said that God is on our side and with him we will overcome saddam and iraq.

how is that ANY different than the radical islam that invokes Allah onto his side in order to defeat the infidels (americans, ect)?

DID YOU GET YOUR COPY NOW???????
DID YOU GET YOUR COPY NOW???????


hell ill post it again because im sure you probably missed it:

“With the might of God on our side we will triumph over Iraq. God will watch over our troops and grant us a victory over the threat of Saddam’s army. God will bless us and keep us safe in the coming battle.”


these are NOT bush's thoughts. THESE WERE HIS WORDS TO THE NATION! they cannot be changed or fixed. they are on record on tape, video, audio, and transcript. if you cannot figure that out by now, you are truely hopeless

fisherman

quote:

how is that ANY different than the radical islam that invokes Allah onto his side in order to defeat the infidels (americans, ect)?

OK, OK I concede and take your word of how George Bush prayed. I cannot say anything more about his style of praying.

However, if you cannot see the difference in calling upon a dead prophet perceived to have the power if resurrected to 'end civilization', then maybe you might look at what happened to faithful party member, Joe Lieberman for your answer.

Or, reason why it was Republicans who responded to the need to secure the US borders and deal with illegal immigrants.

More later.

fisherman - if you are going to hammer me with out of context scripture readings, why do you not see the Bush administration as Good Samaritans? Take a look:


* Saddam had Iraqi men, women and children put to death in human meat grinders on a daily basis...NO OUTCRY FROM THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY...


*Saddam had people thrown off of 3 - 4 story buildings, while their relatives were forced to watch...WHERE'S THE HUMANITARIAN GROUPS WHEN YOU NEED THEM - or Al Gore, or Howard Dean or . . . B. Clinton


* Saddam had people's tongues cut out, limbs chopped off, and even beheaded, while their families were forced to watch...NO OUTCRY FROM THE UNITED NATIONS NOR THE GEORGE SOROS' CRONIES. .

* Saddam's sons, as well as other Administrators and military personnel raped and sodomized Iraqi girls, some as young as 8 years old, on a daily basis...WHERE'S THE NATIONAL ORGANIZATION OF WOMEN WHEN YOU NEED THEM???!!!

* Saddam's regime indiscriminately put to death millions of Iraqi citizens on a daily basis, during the term of his brutal 35 year dictatorship, as evidenced by the mass graves recently uncovered in various parts of Iraq...NO OUTCRY FROM THE ARAB COMMUNITY...


* Terrorists routinely explode car bombs in Baghdad, killing innocent Iraqi children and i citizens...WHERE'S THE OUTCRY??

* Terrorists have been killing American/Coalition soldiers on a daily basis since we sent our troops, many of whom gave their lives on Iraqi soil, used US taxpayer dollars to liberate the Iraqi people...

* Four Americans were killed in Fallujah, their bodies were burned, mutilated, dragged through the streets and hung on a bridge...while Iraqi people cheered and stoned the bodies...NO OUTCRY FROM GEORGE SOROS AND CRONIES!

fisherman - More on your use of Sacred Scripture. You can spin anything with scripture if you do not seek the allegorical sense of scripture.

If you do not accept that Sacred Scripture is the Word Incarnate - Jesus Christ from Genesis to Revelation, Redeemer of humanity, the choice to accept (or reject what He has won for all) salvation, than we are not on the same page to discuss Sacred Scripture.

Also the desperate seeking to support postions from uncertified writings - looking under rocks - looking in all the wrong places for answers to 'why do we exist on earth', is curious and suspect.

Another major point - any religion has a charitable focus. How charitable is Islamicfascism? In the US Muslims can practice their religion and build new mosques at will. NOt so in Arab Muslim countries for Christians. They can neither pray publicly nor build new churches.

When a natural disaster hits - do the Arab Islamicfascists' countries come to humanitarian aid? I don't think so!!! So watch whom you coddle they may want your life. Actually, they already have made a firm commitment to kill all infidels - party affiliation will protect nobody.

ROOTS OF TERRORISM - an article worth pondering.

Who is asking us to 'stay the course'?

"Stay the course. Provide to Baghdad and other trouble spots the same security umbrella that made Kurdistan's success over more than a decade possible. Secure borders, one province at a time, until foreign terrorists are swept out."

Drive by media OMIT.

What does 'troop REdeployment really mean'??

quote:

fisherman - if you are going to hammer me with out of context scripture readings, why do you not see the Bush administration as Good Samaritans?

there are MANY, MANY reasons why the bush administration are not good samaritans:

1)a good samaritan will love his/her enemies, as witnessed in the scripture in the bible

2)a good samaritan DOESNT lock people, who may or may not be guilty of a crime, for an indefinite amount of time with no legal counsel. while it is true that the guilty should be locked up, too many innocent people are also incarcerated without due process.

3)a good samaritan WONT attack other innocents as a way to make up for the deaths of other innocents. all this does is prolong the process of death and suffering.

4)a good samaritan DOES NOT use instriments of war and death to accomplish his goals, wheather they be of good OR evil nature.

5)a good samaritan would try everyone the same, in spite of political, religious, or national affiliation.

im sorry, but the bush administration is the FURTHEST thing from being good samaritans.

quote:

If you do not accept that Sacred Scripture is the Word Incarnate - Jesus Christ from Genesis to Revelation, Redeemer of humanity, the choice to accept (or reject what He has won for all) salvation, than we are not on the same page to discuss Sacred Scripture

i accepted jesus christ as my personal savior. that is all that is needed to get into heaven. read the sccripture carefully, because that is what it says. jesus himself stated that noone can enter the gates of heaven based on his words or actions, only by accepting him into their life can they have eternal salvation.

so you can quote scripture or do as many good deeds as you want, but when the time comes, unless you accepted jesus as your savior, you cannot be saved. its a shame that the catholic church, even though it is based on the principles of the bible, fail to point that out.

quote:

When a natural disaster hits - do the Arab Islamicfascists' countries come to humanitarian aid? I don't think so!

that quote you have just stated goes against reality.

1)MANY islamic nations were both effected and donated to nations effected by the 2004 tsunamis.

2)after Katrina struck the gulf coast, many islamic AND communist nations offered aid to the united states, ALL which were REJECTED by the bush administration. all immediate offers by cuba to send medical personal to help with the crisis were rejected by bush, but it still took the navy medical ship Hope over 2 weeks to finally made it to the gulf coast. Chavez offered hundreds of millions of cheaper oil to help with the oil crisis after katrina, which was ALSO REJECTED by the bush administration. to me, it seems like the bush administration would rather have us suffer than accept help from a nation whos ideology or political views differ than ours. so much for his administration being good samaritans.

3)MANY islamic nations are located on the 'Ring of Fire', a natural rift in the earths plates that produce earthquakes and volcanic eruptions with great frequency. these nations very often give support to one another when such a natural disaster occurs. Indonesia is just one of many of such nations.

GG on sept 30th, you gave 10 reasons on why islam is not a religion of peace. to me, your views hinge on racist and closemindedness. some of your views are really scary, especially since you claim to be a catholic. but then again, catholics in the past have often had very narrowminded views and often practiced hatred against people of differnt views.


"Muslims don't play well with other children. Wherever there's religious bloodshed anywhere in the world, it's invariably Muslims versus someone else." (the jewish genocide in germany certainly did not include muslims. in fact the majority of the germans at the time were self proclaimed catholics)

"For Muslims, violence and threats of violence are always the first resort to any perceived insult or injury" (another closeminded stereotype where you condemn an entire religion for the actions of a few)

"Islam is virulently anti-Semitic" (many religions, including catholisism, have practiced anti-semitic views in the past)

"Generally, the more Muslim a nation, the more lunatic and dangerous it is." (once again, another narrorminded view. alot of other nations where the majority of its citizens are of different religions are also extreme. germany during ww2 was mostly catholic. the united states during the present time is mostly christian. russia during the cold war was mostly eastern orthodox. japan during ww2 was also certainly not muslim.)

"When a young Muslim becomes more involved with his religion, his thoughts often stray to suicide bombing" (so now you have the abiliy to read peoples minds and tell what an individual is thinking. your statement is akin to one saying that once a catholic becomes more involved with his religion, his thoughts often stray to sexual thoughts of alter boys)

"islam isnt minority friendly" (the united states, which ISNT an islamic state, did not practice equal rights until the civil rights movement of the 60's. and even today, racial and minority hatred is still prevelant in this nation)

"islam is bent on global conquest" (another narrorminded view. many nations and religions in the past have also have the same idea. united states imperialism was previlant in the early 20th century. nazi germany and communist USSR also had the same ideals.)

GG here is another BIGGGG flaw in your reasoning. you made this statement:

"fisherman - if you are going to hammer me with out of context scripture readings, why do you not see the Bush administration as Good Samaritans? Take a look:"

you then proceeded to give about a dozen reasons why SADDAM is evil, but did not give a single fact or statement supporting your view of the bush administration as good samaritans


you also list a few instances of bad things happening in iraq and yes, they SHOULD be condemned. HOWEVER, while you talk about terrorists killing innocent iraqis and coalition forces, you also FAIL TO ACKNOWLEDGE the fact that coalition forces have done the same to innocent iraqis. wheres your outrage with that? you also fail to mention that american forces have also KILLED friendly coalition forces with wayward bombings. they have killed over a dozen canadian troops and over a dozen british troops with their friendly fire. i dont see you outraged with that.

im not sticking up for Saddam , as he WAS a horrible leader, but there are other ways to dispose of regimes such as his without resorting to violence. and all the points you made about saddam killing or pushing people off of buildings is also a semi-truth. while he DID AUTHORIZE his men to do those things, he was not the one to actually commit those crimes.


this is not very differnt from all the things that bush has AUTHORIZED the cia and other covert agencies to do. Bush has AUTHORIZED:
1)secret prisons both he and abroad
2)tortute techniques in order to gather information
3)unconstitutional seizers and arrests WITHOUT due process of law
4)the attack on iraq, which has resulted in over 10,000 innocent deaths from AMERICAN bombs alone.
5)bush's gop representatives who make illicit and sexual advances towards minors in the page program

ok maybe bush didnt authorized #5 but it still happened on his watch and it is now a known fact that foley was warned about his messages WAYY back in 2000.

quote:

If you perceive fundamentalism as having as intense gratitude for He who gave humanity endless loveliness in the beauty of His creation and many more marvels I have not yet grasped, or

if you perceive fundamentalism to actually be a "fundamental option" that best describes my desire to live the Beatitudes convinced of the amazing love by He who came to die for me (and you), than OK, I'm a fundamentalist.

No. I think you're a fundamentalist because you seems to think it's ok to kill other human beings because they don't see things YOUR way.

I think you're a fundamentalist because you believe that yours is the only REAL religion.

You talk above about having gratitude for humanity and beauty and lovliness yet you are quite happy to see portions of it wiped out.

And you don't even see it.

quote:

Originally posted by ftmyersfisherman:

quote:

If you do not accept that Sacred Scripture is the Word Incarnate - Jesus Christ from Genesis to Revelation, Redeemer of humanity, the choice to accept (or reject what He has won for all) salvation, than we are not on the same page to discuss Sacred Scripture

i accepted jesus christ as my personal savior. that is all that is needed to get into heaven. read the sccripture carefully, because that is what it says. jesus himself stated that noone can enter the gates of heaven based on his words or actions, only by accepting him into their life can they have eternal salvation.

so you can quote scripture or do as many good deeds as you want, but when the time comes, unless you accepted jesus as your savior, you cannot be saved. its a shame that the catholic church, even though it is based on the principles of the bible, fail to point that out.

I am thankful that you have accepted Jesus as your lord and savior. And you are right that nothing in Catholism prevents people from:

quote:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

So if you believe these things fisherman, then why are you not acting like the good samaritan? Shouldn't we help GG to be a better Christian? Or should we just attack her at every chance?

i may have gone overboard a little bit with GG but i cant help it when i see someone like GG filled with such hatred for another religion. i know that i shouldnt be stooping to his/her level and for that, i admit im wrong. however, when someone advocates the killing of innocents like GG does, i feel that sometimes you do have to take a very forward approach to the subject.

i am not trying to personally attack GG, just GG's reasoning behind his/her hatred for all muslims. i was taught to respect all religions, regardless what they are. i may not agree with the teachings of one particular religion but i respect someones choice of practicing that religion. i myself was raised catholic and went to catholic school most my life. once i was on my own, i did research and became to believe that the catholic church teaches too many falsehoods and i became a born again christian.

im mostly against GG's stance that the killing of christians, catholics, and jews are wrong, but its ok to kill innocent muslims. ALL killing should be condemned. race, nationality, or religion has no meaning. death is death. and i hate it how alot of people, radical muslims, radical christians, or others use and abuse their religion as a platform for personal gain or to propell their agendas. religion, in my mind, is not to better the body, but the soul.

fisherman, it's kind of late, so I don't have too much time to respond.
But thanks for showing your Christian side.
Maybe being new here I have not seen GG's hatred, but all I see is someone trying to understand how a religion that is suppose to be peaceful has too many people wanting to use it for violence. I too am strugling with love we need to show to others and how to deal with people that hate everything about you and what you believe.

quote:

i may not agree with the teachings of one particular religion but i respect someones choice of practicing that religion.

I can look up the exact verse, but it was asked why should we criticize others that spread their beliefs while we don't.

Talk to you later.

Does anyone or could anyone kindly tell me how to put an 'anchor' on an "URL" - an exact spot of reference in a document, Please?!

BTW, Mr. fisherman, I have been a female all my life; I like it that way, and I intend to keep it that way.

Since studying some of Greater Pope John Paul II's "Theology of the Body", I have an increased appreciation of the significance of masculinity and of femininity - human sexuality is goodness to be protected and EACH person is a gift created by God. This is a very ineffectual explanation of this revolutionary teaching that is also being acknowledged and taught among Protestants.

More Later.

quote:

Maybe being new here I have not seen GG's hatred, but all I see is someone trying to understand how a religion that is suppose to be peaceful has too many people wanting to use it for violence.

go to page 1 of this forum and look at GG's 10 reasons that muslims are violent. the vast majority of her views are pretty much rasist. i especially like the one where she states:

"When a young Muslim becomes more involved with his religion, his thoughts often stray to suicide bombing"

in that statement, she is catagorizing and stereotyping ALL muslims just because of a few radicals in their midsts. as i pointed out sarcasticly, thats like me saying anyone who gets deeply involved in the catholic religion will have impure sexual thoughts of alter boys or in GG's case since shes a woman, a nun. thats like also saying that all christians are warmongers, which is also a falsehood. such narrowminded and rasist views should not be tolerated, esp by someone who claims to be a servant of god, as GG stated. i know that the church and the scripture doesnt teach thinking like that.

so im wondering GG, where did you originally start harboring such views like that? such thinking should not be tolerated by any religion and should be condemned by all.

GG also made the claim that islam isnt minority friendly. but all one has to do is look here in the united states to see first hand at what that really means. our nation practiced slavery until 1864, almost 100 years after it was formed. women did not have the right to vote until the 1920's and the sufferage movement. blacks and other minorities were still being treated as lesser beings for the most part until the civil rights movement of the 1960's. and even today, racial and religion hatred is being practiced on a daily basis here in america. people like GG who harbor such views do nothing to help the unity of mankind. when people harbor views like that, it just prolongs minority suffering. too many people are not willing to have an openmind in such matters and that just leads to more and more hatred.

now ill be the first to admit that i dont like the bush administration. some of my view are pretty biased. but i cant approve of anyone who authorizes the killing of innocents, be it saddam hussein killing his own people or bush authorizing an airstrike that kills a dozen innocent bystanders. to me all of those deaths are unwarrented and unnessessary. it doesnt make a differnce if it was for evil purposes like saddam did, or for supposedly good intentions like bush claims. either way, an innocent got killed and it should be condemned by ALL, americans, christians, catholics, muslims, whites, blacks, green people (you get my point).

fisherman

In regards to 'enemy combatants/detainees", I am a supporter of the Bush administration because they comprehend that:

these are mal-contents that cannot live in civilized society

it is an act of mercy to save people from themselves and their intention to bring down civilization as we know it

it is required that US citizens shoulder the burden through tax dollars and provide for their choice foods, readings materials, proper medical care (at the doctors' risk for they must put on special clothing whenever near these combatants)

that the trial lawyers and the ACLU should not profit from defending them; enemy combatants need to find their own sources at their own expense

they have been given the right to live and are not shot as in communists, nazi-germany, Islamofascists style

extracting information from them to SAVE CIVILIZATION IS A GOOD THING!! Who was the Democrat convinced the guards were torturing the detainees at Guitmo and returned giving eye-witness testimony to the merciful conditions given to them Wow!! has that man been silenced or what??? Driveby media don't want to talk about it DO THEY??

that we guard them and if we do not than WHO??

has a more likeness to 'authentic love' for humanity, while recognizing his human imperfections as in us all.

* * * * * * * *
Without traditional regular moral principles that may be consulted confidently, justice cannot long endure anywhere.

fisherman

quote:

GG also made the claim that islam isnt minority friendly. but all one has to do is look here in the united states to see first hand at what that really means. our nation practiced slavery until 1864, almost 100 years after it was formed. women did not have the right to vote until the 1920's and the sufferage movement.

We thought like a child when we were a child, now that we are growing and maturing we must not think like children.

Any human organization has growing pains, makes serious mistakes. Have we not made some very good changes in all these things you've mentioned; however I question if we have learned from our mistakes.

quote:

blacks and other minorities were still being treated as

BTW, you are not of a party that promotes blacks and minorities, but consistently on going and intentionally put stops on their promotions in all political areas. Your party only views them as 'blocks of voters'!!

You know that to be true for you cannot sight a credible support from the Democrats of a black person - and don't give me Jessie Jackson. I'm watching the career of Senator Barach Obama and how he will be allowed to advance, if at all. Most questionable because there is no prior steps to follow.

(Actually I would vote if on the ballot for 'Alan Keyes' - he's the man that should have made it. His Catholic racial heritage is against his politcal advancements.)

Obama is on record as saying, "secularists are wrong to ask believers to leave their religion at the door before entering the public square". Of course all public officials must be judged not on what they say but what they do and he fails miserably. There is a wide gap between his rhetoric and his record.

We have a real problem with Senators like Schumer who call Pres. Bush a 'moral ayatollah' for vetoing a bill on embryonic stem cell research when he and other Senators, Harkin, Spector, Clinton, Kerry - - and supreme traitorous court judges voted to allow doctors to kill babies 80% born. No one called them moral popes nor drops the taliban card on them.

Disentangling popular misconceptions of current controversies is difficult. But I believe truth telling, reality and reason will triumph. GUTTING morality and protection from religious institutions will not change what is good and what is evil, what is right and what is wrong. Truth is immutable.


And I'm having a hard time keeping up with you, fisherman. More later.

quote:

Maybe being new here I have not seen GG's hatred, but all I see is someone trying to understand how a religion that is suppose to be peaceful has too many people wanting to use it for violence.

Thank you, deer lady for that understanding. That is exactly the major point that surfaced with Pope Benedict XVI's speech at the University of Regensburg September 12.

I think only he can reason with the forces who want to kill all infidels. God help us all if he does not get the support of the majority of people living.

quote:

i accepted jesus christ as my personal savior. that is all that is needed to get into heaven. read the sccripture carefully, because that is what it says.

Are you saying 'once saved always saved'? And why would you say that?

quote:

I am thankful that you have accepted Jesus as your lord and savior. And you are right that nothing in Catholism prevents people from:

Have you studied Catholicism?

Every time I receive the Most Holy Eucharist, that Blessed Sacrament, I receive Jesus Christ into my body, into my life. I witness to all that He directs and is Lord of my life.

quote:

Shouldn't we help GG to be a better Christian? Or should we just attack her at every chance?

Yeh!! fisherman, listen to the words of deer lady and be nice to me!!

quote:

Originally posted by KennyMac:

quote:

If you perceive fundamentalism as having as intense gratitude for He who gave humanity endless loveliness in the beauty of His creation and many more marvels I have not yet grasped, or

if you perceive fundamentalism to actually be a "fundamental option" that best describes my desire to live the Beatitudes convinced of the amazing love by He who came to die for me (and you), than OK, I'm a fundamentalist.

No. I think you're a fundamentalist because you seems to think it's ok to kill other human beings because they don't see things YOUR way.

I think you're a fundamentalist because you believe that yours is the only REAL religion.

You talk above about having gratitude for humanity and beauty and lovliness yet you are quite happy to see portions of it wiped out.

And you don't even see it.

KenneyMac, I think we all need to weap and wail for the current atrocities. Each one of us needs to spend time with introspection on how we have not stood for truth, goodness and beauty.

Maybe one day I will have the wisdom and spirituality to be a more convincing witness of what is truth, goodness, and beauty. I have hope that to be changed by the One who never changes and can break through any resistances.

I've learned to pay attention to our critics; they are sometimes our best friends.

GG i found many more flaws in your reasoning that i just HAVE to point out. you are starting to make this personal by questioning MY faith. maybe i should start looking at your faith (catholisism) and point out ITS flaws.you wrote:

"In regards to 'enemy combatants/detainees", I am a supporter of the Bush administration because they comprehend that:"

"it is an act of mercy to save people from themselves and their intention to bring down civilization as we know it"

WHO IS SAVING CIVILIZATION FROM THE BUSH ADMINSTRATIONS WARMONGERING?

"it is required that US citizens shoulder the burden through tax dollars and provide for their choice foods, readings materials, proper medical care (at the doctors' risk for they must put on special clothing whenever near these combatants)"

so in other words, you approve of us tax dollars going towards the lockup of many innocent people. you approve that us tax dollars sent an innocent canadian man on us planes overseas to be tortured. thats good reasoning.

"that the trial lawyers and the ACLU should not profit from defending them; enemy combatants need to find their own sources at their own expense"

and how do you propose they do that? since the majority of them are locked up with no access to attorneys or due process. most of them HAVENT even been charged with a crime yet. that is fact. how do you propose that they find their own sources if their own families are not even sure if they are dead or alive.


"extracting information from them to SAVE CIVILIZATION IS A GOOD THING!! Who was the Democrat convinced the guards were torturing the detainees at Guitmo and returned giving eye-witness testimony to the merciful conditions given to them Wow!! has that man been silenced or what??? Driveby media don't want to talk about it DO THEY??"

i find it hard to believe a democrat would say the prisoners conditions are good. even the international red cross, who have had VERY LIMITED access, have said that abuses have abounded at the us run prisons in cuba and in iraq. by the way, can u even NAME the democrat that supposedly made that statement? i think not.

"has a more likeness to 'authentic love' for humanity, while recognizing his human imperfections as in us all."

if by authentic love for humanity you must mean the authorization to bomb and kill innocent people of other nations. if by love you must mean the detention of thousands of innocents without due process. and please tell me when did george bush EVER admit he was wrong to anything? he hasnt in 6 years in office.


"BTW, you are not of a party that promotes blacks and minorities, but consistently on going and intentionally put stops on their promotions in all political areas. Your party only views them as 'blocks of voters'!! "

lol i had to REALLY LAUGH AT THAT STATEMENT!! you act like the republican party has done wonders for minorities. and you also ASSUME that MY party doesnt promote blacks and minorities. apparently you lack of mental capacity has blinded you. i might be a registered democrat, BUT IM AN INDEPENDANT VOTER!! i dont vote on party lines. i vote for the best candidate. so once again another assumption was made without even knowing the facts. its ok, i expected as much from you. after all, you were the same one to assume muslims think of suicide bombings once they get more involved into their religion.



now onto religion since you want to make a mockery of my faith as you have with islam. im not going to hold ANYTHING back now, as you have now made this into a very personal matter. i was going to go easy on you after hearing the words of deer and i even somewhat apologized. HOWEVER, now that you have made a mockery of MY faith, i have no choice but to become the soldier of christ i became when i accepted him as my savior and to destroy your words of satan.

"Are you saying 'once saved always saved'? And why would you say that?"

yes, that is EXACTLY what im saying. once i accepted jesus into my life, He will be in me forver. the fire of jesus might go dim at times but it will NEVER go out or extinguish. i can tell satan is in your heart and with every word of hatred that spews from your mouth, his hold on you grows. im not worried about my salvation, but you should be very worried about yours.

"Have you studied Catholicism?
Every time I receive the Most Holy Eucharist, that Blessed Sacrament, I receive Jesus Christ into my body, into my life. I witness to all that He directs and is Lord of my life"

yes in fact i have. i grew up in a catholic family and went to catholic school for 10 years. dont assume what you dont know. i stop going to the catholic church as they are full of untruths, falsehoods, and satanic beliefs. dont believe me? let me break it down for you:

1)the bible CLEARLY states "thou shall not worship false idols". this means you cant idolize anyone other than god, jesus, and the holy spirit. yet catholics pray to "patron saints" and idolize statues of mary. clearly satans work in progress. the catholic church also seems to idolize the pope too much, even though he is really just a mortal man, and not one of the holy trinity.

2)i have also, during my dark catholic years, was BAPTIZED, RECIEVED COMMUNION, WAS CONFIRMED, and was witness to many ANNOINTING OF THE SICK AND DYING. once i became a TRUE CHRISTIAN, the first thing i did was make sure i was given a TRUE BAPTISM, one where it was MY choice to be annoited by god, not my parents and not because it was a requirement to be in the church diosese (as it is in MOST catholic diosese).

3)you actually think the collection plate they pass around in catholic churches actually goes to a good cause? sorry to burst your bubble, but thats to pay for all the pretty stained glass windows, marble floors and alters, plus the salary of the clergy. the catholic church SOLD OUT to the devil. you dont NEED a church to pray to the lord, as they have you believe. JESUS, the son of God, stated: "whenever 2 or more of my flock gather in my name, I will be there". this means it can be in an empty field, a basement, even at a sporting event.

"Yeh!! fisherman, listen to the words of deer lady and be nice to me!!"

too late for those words now GG. im going to make it my personal mission to prove you are wrong on EVERYTHING you say, especially when it comes to your satanic religion. you wanted a holy war, well you got one now.

GG oh ya i forgot to mention that YOUR religion was one of the reasons the jewish genocide in germany was allowed to happen. funny how you condemn islam for not being minority friendly, but the HEAD of your church did NOTHING to condemn all the killings, even though they were taking place right OUTSIDE his vatican windows in many cases. and dont give me crap about he couldnt because if he did, there would have been more killings. thats an assumption. pope pius ALLOWED over 6 million people from another religion to be sacrificed. but then again, there are many times in catholic history where they persecuted jews.

also, how many native americans were killed that did not convert to the catholic religion? how many people in midevil europe suffered at the hands of the catholic church? the pain and suffering inflicted by your religion goes back centuries. if you like, i can even name specific times, events, and places where your church spread satans works.

"And I'm having a hard time keeping up with you, fisherman. More later"

your gonna have a hell of a time after the next time you respond. if you thought i was brutal before, just wait. im certainly not going to let you belittle my faith and mock my faith and get away with it scotfree. just remember, you brought this onto yourself.

MORE OF THE FLAWS,FAULTS, AND EVILS OF CATHOLISM TO COME LATER ON TONIGHT! i hope to see you there!

GG did you know that the head of your religion (or spokesman i should say) made a deal with the nazis? its called the Concordat of July 1933. in this treaty, pope pius agreed not to mention the holocaust in return for vatican amnesty. oh ya, since you loved listing names of infamous muslims, i thought i should name of few well known catholics:

1)adolf hitler
2)adolf eichmann (leader of the nazi SS)
3)mossolini
4)cardinal Bernard Law
5)Fidel Castro (he later renounced his faith)
6)Mel Gibson (and his anti semite tirades)

i can list more if u wish but figured i would spare you more heartache for now

another satanic ritual practiced by catholics:

giving oneself pentance in order to 'disolve' sin. the bible CLEARLY states that only jesus can remove the sins of the world. saying a rosary 10 times doesnt forgive sin. oh yeah, i find the fact that the catholic church allows clergy who themselves have sinned or are sinners to remove the sins of others. care to explain how that works? sound like the workings of satan to me.

quote:

lockup of many innocent people.

You are very quick to assume they are innocent.

quote:

and how do you propose they do that? since the majority of them are locked up with no access to attorneys or due process. most of them HAVENT even been charged with a crime yet. that is fact. how do you propose that they find their own sources if their own families are not even sure if they are dead or alive.

They have visitors - they have the United Nations, and I am quite certain they receive mail. They are informed of current events by their visitors.

quote:

you were the same one to assume muslims think of suicide bombings once they get more involved into their religion.

You are exagerating, fisherman.

quote:

now onto religion since you want to make a mockery of my faith as you have with islam.

I have no idea what you claim for a religious believe except that you left the Catholic Church. I don't understand your attack in this regards.

As for your attack that I mock Islam, that is wrong. I'm simply talking about the facts of Islam and how it is a threat to the world and not with mockery what so ever.

You've become angry and I don't know just what provoked that reaction. If I have offended you, I do apologize. Please explain.

You remind me of reformed smokers who hate people who smoke.

quote:

"Are you saying 'once saved always saved'? And why would you say that?"

It's a very good question and I don't know why that offends you.

quote:

"Yeh!! fisherman, listen to the words of deer lady and be nice to me!!"

I was trying to bring some humor, that's all.

quote:

Originally posted by ftmyersfisherman:
another satanic ritual practiced by catholics:

giving oneself pentance in order to 'disolve' sin. the bible CLEARLY states that only jesus can remove the sins of the world. saying a rosary 10 times doesnt forgive sin. oh yeah, i find the fact that the catholic church allows clergy who themselves have sinned or are sinners to remove the sins of others. care to explain how that works? sound like the workings of satan to me.

fisherman - If you want to start another thread on the Catholic Church and what it teaches, let me know and I will discuss these issues with you.

GG it seems that you have some sort of memory problem.

I WROTE:"you were the same one to assume muslims think of suicide bombings once they get more involved into their religion"

YOU REPLIED:"You are exagerating, fisherman."

REALLY? IM EXAGGERATING? WHO WAS THE RACIST WHO MADE THIS FOLLOWING COMMENT ON SEPT 30TH:

"When a young Muslim becomes more involved with his religion, his thoughts often stray to suicide bombing"

THATS RIGHT!! YOU MADE THAT STATEMENT, NOT ME AND NOT SOMEONELSE. DONT SAY IM EXAGGERATING WHEN YOU ARE THE ONE THAT MADE THAT COMMENT. YOU ARE THE BIGOT HERE, NOT ME. IM GOING TO EXPOSE YOU FOR THE TRUE RACIST THAT YOU ARE. SORRY BUT YOUR SELECTIVE MEMORY WONT WORK WITH ME. I REMEMBR WHEM BIGOTS SUCH AS YOURSELF MAKE STEREOTYPICAL STATEMENTS LIKE THE ONE ABOVE. PERHAPS YOU SHUOLD LAY OFF THE 'JESUS JUICE' FOR AWHILE. I HEARD TOO MUCH EFFECTS THE MEMORY.



I MADE THIS STATEMENT:"lockup of many innocent people."

YOU REPLIED: "You are very quick to assume they are innocent."

SORRY BUT HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, IT IS FACT THAT YOU ARE PRESUMED INNOCENT UNTIL FOUND GUILTY IN A COURT OF LAW. OR DONT OUR LAWS MEAN ANYTHING ANYMORE? I LOVE HOW SELECTIVE YOU MEMORY AND THINKING IS. PERHAPS YOU ARE GUILTY OF SOME TERRORIST PLOT. AFTER ALL, IM ONLY ASSUMING YOU ARE INNOCENT. THERFORE WITH YOUR REASONING, YOU ARE GUILTY BEFORE THE FACTS PRESENT THEMSELVES. WHAT SAY YOU, TERRORIST?



YOU WROTE:" have no idea what you claim for a religious believe except that you left the Catholic Church. I don't understand your attack in this regards"

ONCE AGAIN YOUR STUPIDITY REIGNS SUPREME. IF YOU DIDNT READ ABOUT MY FAITH, WHICH I STATED MANY TIMES, THEN THAT IS YOUR PROBLEM. ACTING STUPID ISNT GOING TO MAKE ME GO AWAY NOW. YOU WANTED TO PROVOKE MY FAITH, WELL YOU HAD BETTER BE READY TO DEFEND YOURS. IM GOING TO BE RELENTLESS WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO BELITTLING YOUR FAITH, SINCE YOU HAD NO PROBLEM DOING THE SAME TO MINE. AND IF YOU CANT FIGURE WHAT YOU SAID, PERHAPS YOU SHOULD ACTUALLY GO BACK AND READ WHAT YOU WRITE. MANY TIMES YOU CONTRADICT YOURSELF FROM WHAT YOU HAVE SAID IN THE PAST. BUT THEN AGAIN I DONT EXPECT MUCH FROM A SIMPLETON SUCH AS YOURSELF WHO DOESNT KNOW REALITY FROM FANTASY.


YOU WROTE:"You've become angry and I don't know just what provoked that reaction. If I have offended you, I do apologize. Please explain"

TOO LATE FOR APOLOGIES NOW. I HAD APOLOGIZED FOR MY ACTIONS WHEN THE DEERLADY ASKED ME TOO (ANOTHER THING YOU PROBABLY DID NOT READ) AND RIGHT AFTER I DID THAT, YOU ATTTACKED MY FAITH. SO NO, I DONT ACCEPT YOUR APOLOGY BECAUSE YOUR WORDS MEAN NOTHING TO ME. THEY ARE ONLY HOLLOW WORDS AND HAVE NO ACTUAL MEANING.


YOU WROTE:"fisherman - If you want to start another thread on the Catholic Church and what it teaches, let me know and I will discuss these issues with you."

WHATS WRONG? CANT TAKE THE HEAT? YOU HAVE NO PROBLEM MOCKING MY CHRISTIAN FAITH AND THE FAITH OF MILLIONS OF MUSLIMS BUT AS SOON AS I MENTION YOUR SATANIC CATHOLIC FAITH, YOU WANT TO START A NEW THREAD. NOPE, GO AHEAD AND START A NEW ONE IF YOU WANT. THATS YOUR RIGHT, BUT IM GOING TO KEEP UP MY ATTACKS ON YOUR FAITH AND YOUR REASONING RIGHT HERE ON THIS FORUM. INSTEAD OF RUNNING AND HIDING, I PREFER TO STAND UP TO BIGOTS LIKE YOURSELF AND FACE THEM HEAD ON.

YOU WROTE:"As for your attack that I mock Islam, that is wrong. I'm simply talking about the facts of Islam and how it is a threat to the world and not with mockery what so ever"

AND WHAT OF THE THREAT OF CATHOLICISM? YOU SEEM TO HAVE LONG TERM MEMORY LOSS AS HITLER AND THE VAST MAJORITY OF NAZI GERMANY WAS CATHOLIC. YOU FORGET THAT THE INQUISITION WAS PERFORMED ON NON-CATHOLICS WHO WOULD NOT CONVERT OR ACCEPT THE CATHOLIC FAITH AS DOCTRINE. SO WHO REALLY IS THE WORLD THREAT? THE CATHOLIC NAZIS WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR OVER 6 MILLION JEWISH DEATHS. AND THAT WAS ONLY IN A PERIOD OF 10 YEARS AT THE MOST. HOW MANY MILLIONS OF OTHERS HAVE DIED AS A RESULT OF CATHOLIC IDEOLOGY AND AGGRESSION?
CAN YOU ANSWER ME THAT OR IS YOUR SELECTIVE REASONING AND THINKING GOING TO KICK IN AGAIN. OR IS YOUR SELECTIVENESS A SWITCH THAT CANNONT BE TURNED ON OR OFF? IT WAS YOUR FAITH THAT MADE A DEAL WITH SATAN AND NOT ONLY ALLOWED BUT ADVOCATED THE GENOCIDE OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE.


in my next thread im going to expose your religion for its pagan and cult teachings it truely is. enjoy

fisherman

quote:

WHATS WRONG? CANT TAKE THE HEAT? YOU HAVE NO PROBLEM MOCKING MY CHRISTIAN FAITH AND THE FAITH OF MILLIONS OF MUSLIMS BUT AS SOON AS I MENTION YOUR SATANIC CATHOLIC FAITH,

My experience has been that if a post is "out of context" it will get deleted. SueN administration deleted one of my posts approx. 2 months ago; therefore, I will not chance yours or my posts getting deleted for not honoring the rules.

It's your choice what to do. BTW, your personality changed suddenly. Kinda Strange??

SATANIC AND PAGAN RITUALS PERFORMED BY CATHOLICS:

1)worshiping statues of mary and other saints. in the bible it CLEARLY states "thou shall not worship false idols". but then again, i dont expect a cult like the catholic church to heed the words of the bible.

2)the repenting of sins to a catholic priest. NOWHERE in the bible does it state that a clergy member can repent sins. this was a MAN MADE rule that allowed the catholic church to exert control over the simpletons who believe their teachings.

3)making the sign of the cross. another MAN MADE ritual which is akin to witchcraft. making the sign of the cross is no differnt than casting a spell to ward off evil spirits. NO WHERE in the bible does ANYONE make the sign of the cross.

4)annoiting with holy water. another MAN MADE ritual which is supposed to 'cleanse' the sins from the wicked. only jesus and jesus alone can repent your sins. any other way is a form of satanism, which apparently you practice.

5)the scattering of ashes on one's forehead during ash wensday. this is no differnt than people getting the mark of the beast on their foreheads. the ashes are supposed to show people that they are catholic, but it only shows that they are believers and followers of satan.

6)the catholic teachings that entry into heaven is from ones deeds. this is contrary to what THE BIBLE STATES. only through jesus can one be saved, not through good deeds or charity work. as i recall, the theif that was crucified along with jesus was an EVIL MAN. however, he repented and accepted jesus as his savior. once again, another MAN MADE ritual constructed by the catholic church to exert power over the simpletons who believe such nonsense.

7)the eucharist and wine served during communion is NOT the body and blood of jesus christ. contrary to what the catholic churches teaches, you should REALLY read what the bible says in John:22-71. when he says this is His body and this is His blood, he is speaking metaphoricly, as many times he did. dont believe me? in john 10:9 jesus states that "he is the door". does that mean he is a door? if you take john:22 literaly, why dont catholics also take john:10 literally also? i dont see them worshiping the door. jesus spoke FIGURETLY most of the time.


well as soon as your ready for more dismantling of your religion, ill be ready

quote:

It's your choice what to do. BTW, your personality changed suddenly. Kinda Strange

yes, insulting ones faith will often people angry. im sure if thom had any moderate muslim readers, they would be equally outraged at your racist attempt at reasoning. my personality hasnt changed. i apologized earlier and then right afterwards you insult my faith. any normal person would act just as i am doing now